SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

What common fashions in sci-fi and fantasy do you dislike most?

I hate the overuse the use of the quest and the hero's journey.

In most cases, I don’t mind the overused tropes too much as long as they’re done well, but one thing I get tired of are prophecies. They often make a story feel too predictable to me, as if it’s inevitable that the subject of the prophecy will end up in a certain place doing a certain thing. Even if the author turns things around at the end so that the prophecy doesn’t mean what people think it does, and even if there's doubt about whether the prophecy is true, there are usually plenty of events throughout the majority of the story that seem to follow the path laid out by the prophecy. It reduces the element of surprise.

It’s not a deal breaker, because there are still plenty of books with prophecies that I’ve enjoyed. Usually, though, I enjoy the book in spite of the prophecy rather than because of it.

Little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whathaveyou with angsty, annoying attitude. And love triangle. And difficult names to remember/pronounce, especially the ones involving apostrophes.

I often dislike it when characters are possessed by aliens or spirits or whatever. The possessed characters commit grave transgressions. Then later, after their possession is discovered and reversed, all is forgiven. Everyone is back to the pre-possession state of affairs. TV shows often use possession in a plot-of-the-week format. I wouldn't mind possession if its consequences after the possession ends were taken seriously.

Silvana wrote: "Little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whathaveyou with angsty, annoying attitude. And love triangle."

These. So much these. Especially when little miss perfect is 5'2" and 90 pounds soaking wet but can destroy an entire army single-handedly. Triple points if she can do all that but still gets frustrated figuring out what to wear or what boy to date.

-Teenagers who save the world/humanity, while adults are portrayed as dumb and/or evil. (have any of these authors ever been around a real teenager?!)

-Female who rides (or has) a cat, wears skimpy clothing, wields a bow, and is love struck (OR, bitter about love...either are terrible, ugh)

-Prophecy of any kind

-Antagonists who monologue (this isn't a trope, but I HATE it!)

It isn't a trope, but I hate the framed for a crime/falsely accused/wrongly imprisoned plot.

As a teenager, I am in complete agreement with you there. 'Adults are evil and it's up to us to save the world' is just such a lazy attempt to resonate with an age bracket.

For me it's never about the trope -- commonly used literary device -- but how it's used.

Same with story lines? How many are there anyway? How many times has Beauty and the Beast been retold in one form or another? Some are great. Never tire of a good story even when it's the same story over and over again.

Come to think of it, Beauty and the Beast -- the original story -- has been told over and over again. Some good. Some not so good.

Cliches on the other hand. They do get old.

Neal wrote: "-Teenagers who save the world/humanity, while adults are portrayed as dumb and/or evil."

Teenagers who save the world, but not until after the entire revolution is put on hold and at risk to save their boyfriend/girlfriend.

Forgot I also hate the use of orcs, elves, gnomes, dwarves, and the likes.

That all aliens are inherently evil and intent upon destroying mankind. (Avatar the only exception I can think of - although man was the alien if viewed in the correct context, so yeah, all aliens are evil.)

Not sci-fi, but isn't it amazing that a cop can go all his career without much happening, then with one week to retirement, all hell breaks loose? Yawn.

CNN had a story just yesterday about that happening to a cop in the San Bernadino shootings.

I hated reading this thread. It ruined a sunny weekend for me. According to this list, no one should read J.R.R Tolkien. Trashy shorts and comics are much more fulfilling right? Oh well, y'all are entitled to hate whatever you please. I just hated hearing about it.

We're just expressing opinions here, don't let us ruin your weekend :)

J. wrote: "According to this list, no one should read J.R.R Tolkien. "

Tolkien didn't use tropes or cliches, because they were created from his work.

Joe wrote: "J. wrote: "According to this list, no one should read J.R.R Tolkien. "

Tolkien didn't use tropes or cliches, because they were created from his work."

C'mon J. - you can smile now! We all love great sci-fi and fantasy.

Ahh good point Joe. Rather like C.S. Lewis and allegorical fantasy; The Chronicles of Narnia is epic, and its copiers are... not.

I don't mind prophecy when the author uses it for misdirection. Like Star Wars, where everyone assumed that Anikin would bring balance to the Force in a good way, when in fact he did it by killing all of the Jedi but two, balancing them with the Sith.

Prophecy is a great tool because it allows for two groups to come into conflict: those who will do anything to make the prophecy come to pass, and those who will do anything to stop it from coming to pass. It leaves the question of whether trying to prevent it from happening is what causes it to happen. If it's used to suggest an absence of free will or enforce fatalism, then I'd agree it's no fun.

Also hate the world is at the stake if the evil/bad guys are destroyed.

I've been intrigued by how very specific some of these are :) I'm curious if people are just as specific about faves? I can't think of anything specific I either love or hate. I probably just need time to think about it.

Sarah wrote: "I've been intrigued by how very specific some of these are :) I'm curious if people are just as specific about faves? I can't think of anything specific I either love or hate. I probably just need ..."

I'm with you, Sarah. I can't think of anything specific either. If something is written well, then I don't even notice the cliche.

Obviously the "chosen one" has been done to death in Fantasy, and "kill everyone" is getting to be one because of Game of Thrones. I'm not real fond of the "super girl who can do everything while looking better and all the guys suck compared to her" boring type as well.

Oh, and let us not forget the villain who has contingencies for his contingencies, and everything always goes in his favor until that second to last chapter when something finally goes wrong.

Villains in general, evil genius in particular. Tiring.

Political intrigue.

Then the two combined. If you're king, never never even *have* a vizier - they're *always* out to get rid of you and take the throne, preferably by leaguing with the neighboring kingdom and destroying the country while they're at it.

I actually love political intrigue in a novel.

What I hate is any character who is nothing but pure evil. Sherwood Smith managed to write her "Inda" series with almost no purely evil characters. There was plenty of conflict, but it largely arose from everyone trying to do what they thought was best -- they simply disagreed about what that was. The few characters who are sadistic or willing to put their petty desires before the well-being of others (I can think of only 2 or 3 such characters) are killed relatively soon after being introduced. That series was pretty darn refreshing.

Agree with some of the sentiments on the teenage heroes and adults are clueless buffoons trope. But my frustration is more along the lines that publishers perceive that the main characters of a novel need to be in age bracket the book is marketed to (which extends beyond sci-fi).

Silvana wrote: "Little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whathaveyou with angsty, annoying attitude. And love triangle. And difficult names to remember/pronounce, especially the ones involving apostrophes."

This. All of this. I also hate when a female protagonist is either incredibly prude-ish or wants sex constantly. I mean, women can be somewhere in the middle, you know.

I will admit to deciding against reading a book solely based on a protagonist's difficult-to-pronounce name. I don't want to constantly stumble through the reading trying to figure out how to say a name. It's obnoxious. At least give me a nickname that doesn't have 25 vowels, please.

I've got to agree with the purely evil character. I don't mind villains who are 'purely evil' in practice, but I want to know what's going on inside their head too, even understand them to some point. When villains are nothing more than props for the main character to knock down, there's nothing fun about them.

I hate the "Machines develop AI and immediately decide to exterminate humanity" thing. It's so lazy and lacking in subtlety.

Good one V.W. :)

Groan-inducing cliches for me:

The people the hero thinks are his parents really aren’t–he’s actually the son of a king/wizard/famous warrior.
Hero has a wise old teacher who turns out the be his grandfather or mother.

I hate the super powerful, reclusive love interest for the female heroine who becomes way too protective and possessive (in a very short time).

I love when fantasy tropes are perverted. So the force balance prophecy in Star Wars is a great example. Unfortunately that is also a great example of an awesome premise doing nothing to make the story enjoyable. Not to give too much away, but perverted tropes are a big part of what makes Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow, Thorn trilogy so amazing.

I am pretty tired of black and white struggles too.

Generally though, count me in the well written trope doesn't kill a story camp.

I could use a break from military sci-fi books where humanity is on the verge of being annihilated by some overpowered, 'evil with a capital E' alien race that hates humans just because PLOT.

And of course one man named Jim or John or something equally generic commands a dilapidated ship or a bare-bones fleet that just happens to be Earth's only hope of survival.

It would be nice for more military sci-fi books to flesh out the antagonists or at least give them a credible reason to want humanity dead.

You guys need to read The Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

It will make you laugh (it's a great bathroom book, lol) and it will make all the clichés and tropes amusing when you come across the really obvious ones. You'll also start to look back on stuff you've read and realize just how well (or badly) those authors played with those tropes.

The Tough Guide to Fantasyland is now in my to-read list :) looks awesome, thanks!

I can't express how sick I am of farmboys who become epic heroes with little to no training.

Also, there's a million other ways to damage your female characters outside of rape. It's too overused.

The Chosen One.

Just stop it.

Trike wrote: "The Chosen One.

Just stop it."

OMG. What Trike said!!! Nothing grates more than the only entity who can save us from this blight upon the universe...of any species. And usually these entities have nothing special about them except that they are the only one that can save all of existence...

Monica wrote: "Trike wrote: "The Chosen One.

Just stop it."

OMG. What Trike said!!! Nothing grates more than the only entity who can save us from this blight upon the universe...of any species. And usually thes..."

Triple points if it's a teenager!

Quadruple points if it's a somewhat idiotic, bratty, completely clueless teenager!

Grace wrote: "Quadruple points if it's a somewhat idiotic, bratty, completely clueless teenager!"

And automatic game/set/match if they're in a love triangle.

Oh my gosh. A love triangle is just the death knell of a good story.

And yet it seems to be the backbone of every YA book these days, at the least.

Joe wrote: "Grace wrote: "Quadruple points if it's a somewhat idiotic, bratty, completely clueless teenager!"

And automatic game/set/match if they're in a love triangle."

Lol... This sounds much like Hollywood!

I am about done with a character list composed solely of twenty-year-olds. Life is long, and there are more stories than the bildungsroman.

Super Genius Main characters: A character can only be as smart at the author, so unless you are a super genius(very unlikely) or put in excessive amount of research please...please don't do this.