Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

This month's group read Becoming the Enchanter: A Journey to the Heart of the Celtic Mysteries, stirred up my personal cauldron of old questions. Within a few days I'd read The Shaman's Last Apprentice and The Art of Dreaming by Carlos Castenada, whose books caused a sensation in their day and almost certainly changed lives. So I need to ask: How important is truth, and how much faith should we invest in an author's assertation of truth?

I remember the discussion we had about The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth and how heated that became, although the truth or otherwise of that particular tome never worried me - probably because I felt its mysteries to be too deep for anyone to understand fully - probably even Graves himself.

So, what do you think about Carlos Castaneda and his works?

It's been maybe 15 years or so since I've read Castaneda, but he still influences my philosophy and view of metaphysics. Whether his narratives are fictional or not seems irrelevant to me; often truth is better conveyed through fiction than nonfiction. Not truth regarding names, dates, and measurable data for the purposes of science and politics, mind you, but spiritual, metaphysical, and psychological truth for the purpose of inspiration and self-growth. For instance, if I wanted to know the role of Minoan bull-dancers in their society, I would likely read academic journals. If I wanted to draw conceptual inspiration from Minoan bull-dancers for a ritual or meditation, I would turn to Graves (and feel more enriched for doing so).

So are you saying that if, after reading a supposedly 'true account', you found it was fiction in disguise with no way of knowing how the author arrived at his or her spiritual, metaphysical or psychological truth, you wouldn't feel deceived?

I would feel deceived if whether or not I "got something" from the reading hinged on it being a factual account. Presenting fiction as a "true account" is definitely unethical, but I don't tend to draw my spirituality from such sources anyway (Joseph Smith receiving gold tablets from an angel or the like).

With sources like Graves and Castaneda, the fact that they may have been presenting fiction as fact didn't diminish my reading. There were definitely moments in the narratives that resonated with truth whether they occurred literally or figuratively.

Some say that shamanism itself is deceptive, because the shaman's experiences didn't actually "happen" (in any measurable, objective way). Similar with these writers. I never take them as prophets or authorities anyway. I suppose if I had invested some kind of faith in them or "bought in" to their message in a religious sense, I would feel very betrayed. As it is, I'm not much of a follower.

How about you? Do you feel that Castaneda's philosophy is nullified by possible "creative liberties"?

I'm the same C.D.. Yes Nell I would feel betrayed, but I don't think I'd let it soil whatever inspiration it sparked in me, and if I'd done experiments which proved true, on my personal path based on the fictional writing, well, what harm?

It depends on the book. If an author uses a "true account" as a sales gimmick to trick readers into buying their books, then yes, it'd bother me. It's intentionally spreading misinformation, and that kind of trash gives Pagan and New Age literature a bad name.

Beyond that, I don't really care. When it comes to spirituality, everyone's going to have their own specific version of the "truth" regardless of what an author says. Can't please everyone, y'know.

If something claims to be true and authentic, based on tradition...but isn't? That bothers me.
But...
If something has a glamour about it that can be used as a paradigm for magic I'm all for it being used as such...just as long as folk aren't evangelical about how the "system" is "true" when it obviously isn't.

C.D. wrote: How about you? Do you feel that Castaneda's philosophy is nullified by possible "creative liberties"?

It's difficult to say, because I read The Art of Dreaming knowing that his work had been discredited. This didn't stop me finding it utterly compelling though, and wondering how the heck he'd accessed or invented what seems like a complete philosophy and practice of dreaming (in the sense he that says the old sorcerers discovered/understood). Perhaps all the psychedelics he was taking had a lot to do with it.

I read The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the Origins of Knowledge years ago, with never a doubt that it was the true account of Jeremy Narby's investigations, in spite of the fact that journalists tend to sensationalise their subject matter. I think it was the elves that cemented my faith in the truth of it all - mentioning them was a definite risk to the book's credibility.

Lysistrata wrote: "It depends on the book. If an author uses a "true account" as a sales gimmick to trick readers into buying their books, then yes, it'd bother me. It's intentionally spreading misinformation, and th..."

I totally agree. Once the demon lucre rears its head, it has a tendency to tempt all sorts of excesses.

Aaron wrote: "I'm the same C.D.. Yes Nell I would feel betrayed, but I don't think I'd let it soil whatever inspiration it sparked in me, and if I'd done experiments which proved true, on my personal path based ..."

A very cautious Yes..... in agreement Aaron. I think it's the left brain/right brain balance that mostly forms these sorts of opinions, and mine is exactly 50/50...

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "If something claims to be true and authentic, based on tradition...but isn't? That bothers me.
But...
If something has a glamour about it that can be used as a paradigm for magic I'm all for it being used as such...just as long as folk aren't evangelical about how the "system" is "true" when it obviously isn't.
"

We were posting at the same time, OB.

I tend to agree. It's that obviously in your post that bothers me a bit. It's not always obvious, unless one takes the view that there are no unbroken traditions.

Nell wrote: "...unless one takes the view that there are no unbroken traditions..."

My view is that even traditions that are "unbroken" (the only ones I think can claim this are text based) will have changed over time...look at any of the Abrahamics and how early versions differ from modern ones. If a tradition is "word of mouth", or passed down, things will have changed even in the unlikely event that there has been an unbroken chain of transmission from ye olden dayes.
The only bit we can be sure of as being "unbroken" is from the immediate predecessor.

I guess too that traditions evolve and develop as they're practised and passed on. A bit like the theoretical? racing car that won some famous race decades ago yet has had every single part replaced since then.

Somehow though, I'd expect the shamans of small communities of indigenous and relatively unspoiled people to have continued their traditions and practices without a loss of core knowledge.

Nell wrote: "Somehow though, I'd expect the shamans of small communities of indigenous and relatively unspoiled people to have continued their traditions and practices without a loss of core knowledge..."

I don't know...
I think the similarities in shamanic practices globally show the core "truth" of the shamanic way...but the regional differences, the added flavour/spice to the rituals? Are they part of the truth?

@Old-Barb: Um... no? There are no "global" shamanic practices. Similarities in trancework do not denote the same religion or culture.

If you want to be technical, the word "shamanism" only describes the specific practices of Siberian indigenous tribes anyway. Bad academia can be blamed for the confusion on that one, though.

EDIT: Not trying to rain on anyone here that calls themselves shamans, of course, I merely find anthropological stuff like that interesting.

Lysistrata wrote: "@Old-Barb: Um... no? There are no "global" shamanic practices. Similarities in trancework do not denote the same religion or culture..."

Sorry wasn't clear...that's kind of what I meant by: "...but the regional differences, the added flavour/spice to the rituals..."
Maybe I mean trancework then, rather than shamanic way.
What I was meaning was that the truth may be more in the method than the mythology I suppose.

Regarding unbroken traditions: even if they existed, I'd hesitate to follow them given our ancestors' proclivity for animal and human sacrifice, ritual use of human body parts, etc. I think we've progressed spiritually as well as scientifically (or evolved/changed, if "progressed" sounds too much like a value judgment).

C.D. wrote: "Regarding unbroken traditions: even if they existed, I'd hesitate to follow them given our ancestors' proclivity for animal and human sacrifice, ritual use of human body parts, etc. I think we've p..."

I concur.
Those that profess a Hellenic leaning within the pagan world (thankfully) no longer perform the hecatomb (ritual slaughter of 100 bulls) during worship.
And the trees in Uppsala have less meat on them.
And the bogs in Eire have less kings in them...

Indeed...

Just revisited The White Goddess thread, which might be of interest as a sideline.

It's relevant to this one and livens up on page 2.

To lighten the topic after all the sacrifice, this is copied from the Druidic Tree Magic thread:

topic: Druidic Tree Magic (38 posts) Jul 12, 2014 02:05PM

message by Old-Barbarossa:

Sarah wrote: "Aaron,

By the way, I have the book, the White Goddess

;)"

Then please don't read it!
Grrr! Snarl! Gnash!
See? I've started again!

:D

On the subject of Carlos Castaneda specifically, I think it does matter that he claimed his account of Don Juan was true.

That, and the fact that Castaneda apparently had a mesmeric effect on many of his followers, to the extent that some of them disappeared, committed suicide, etc. See this Salon article.

There are different kinds of truth:

* historical truth - what actually happened
* mythological truth - it rings true, it describes real life, even if it isn't literally true
* different perspectives - how I see the facts may be different from how you see the facts because of our different emotional responses to what happened

It is better to write something as a fictional account than to claim it is true if it isn't.

Brian Bates didn't claim that The Way of Wyrd was literally true, but it is a really great and inspiring book.

Thanks for the link to the Salon article - I followed another to it a few days ago but it didn't work. I did read the Wiki page though - very cultish towards the end. One of his followers, Amy Wallace, wrote a book exposing life within the group - Sorcerer's Apprentice: My Life with Carlos Castaneda. Apparently it's pretty grim - manipulation, destruction of the ego etc., yet she seems to hold onto some hope of being reunited with him after life.

The Way of Wyrd is an old favourite :)

That Salon article was very scary.

Yes the Way of Wyrd is an awesome book.

I did a blogpost once on the nature of truth - I can dig it out if you're interested

Just finished reading the Salon article - very scary indeed.

That'd be good - I'd like to read the blogpost - thanks Yvonne.

Just read the Salon article--thanks Yvonne for posting--and it did provoke thought on a lot of levels. Let me play devil's advocate here. I never read Castaneda's books as anything more than a fictionalized account, and certainly don't mean to defend his psychological manipulation of others. On the other hand, this article didn't fully convince me that Castaneda was a full-blown fraud and evil cult leader.

For one thing, the apparent suicides occurred after his death. At least one of those was committed by a woman who had what was vaguely described as a brain injury resulting from cancer. I work in rehabilitation, and from my perspective there are less rational choices than wandering into the wilderness to end one's life if faced with permanent disability from brain injuries/terminal diseases.

Also, the article concludes that Castaneda believed in his own teachings. This contradicts the portrait of a scheming fraud using false teachings to manipulate others.

I see him as someone who discovered mystical truths (anyone who has experienced "stopping the world" will know that Castaneda did not merely invent a fiction) but, being human, frequently strayed from his own ideals to indulge his ego and desires. That is his failing, partly fueled by overzealous and too credulous disciples who, after the fact, deny responsibility for their own part in the co-dependent relationship.

There will always be skeptics and atheists ready to attack anyone who strays from the mainstream. Again, I'm not saying that Castaneda was some great guru, but on the spectrum of cult leaders, he's not exactly Jim Jones.

That's a beautifully balanced view, CD - thanks.

It'd be good if members would post links to their own recommendations of books whose truths they've never doubted or have even confirmed for themselves. I feel the need to trust the written word right now.

Nell, there are a few books that I've found trustworthy over the decades when I need a little guidance. They're not Pagan, but contain timeless spiritual or philosophical truths for living that are not incompatible with Paganism. One that comes to mind is The Prophet. Also, anything by Thich Nhat Han.

However, if you mean books containing confirmed ritual magic practice--I've never found that. To me, it seems like something so personal that it's not possible to transmit it through books. Although, I'm sure others have had good experiences with ritual magic through written word.

The Prophet is a favourite, but I haven't come across the works of Thich Nhat Han so will seek them out - thanks.

In total agreement with you re. magic practice - ritual or otherwise - hopefully still a free spirit. :)

Have you read Autobiography of a Yogi? So engaging a story...

I haven't-- looks like a must-read, will definitely put that one on my list.

Nell wrote: "It'd be good if members would post links to their own recommendations of books whose truths they've never doubted or have even confirmed for thems..."

I've been following this thread with interest. If I wasn't currently engaged with "the job that ate my brain" I might have liked to contribute, especially to the Casteneda discussion. (His books exploded inside my consciousness when I was young, but subsequent allegations have tarnished that somewhat. Still, his ideas are probably still rattling around in the substrata of my psyche.)

I think I do still have enough brain power to recommend some books that have meant a lot and have a certain Truth to them:

The Soul's Code by James Hillman is one of those seminal works for me. The way he talks about soul growth really resonated with me and still does.

The Astrology of Fate by Liz Greene—well, pretty much anything by Liz Greene—had an essential truth to it. She makes complex ideas accessible without dumbing them down.

Mysteries of the Dark Moon: The Healing Power of the Dark Goddess by Demetra George is another book that has meant a great deal to me over the years, and Ms. George is another of those authors I trust.

And a beautiful little book, The Sacred Prostitute: Eternal Aspect of the Feminine by Nancy Qualls-Corbett.

There are others, but that's what the brain has come up with at the moment.

Peejay Who Once Was Minsma wrote: "I've been following this thread ..."

Thanks for the links, Peejay - will investigate. I have an idea that I may have read The Soul's Code: In Search of Character and Calling but it was a while ago so it's probably due for a reread.

There are books from Florinda Donner if you want alternative to Castaneda.

Thanks Sonja, will investigate.

Nell wrote: "Thanks Sonja, will investigate."

Nell, I recommend Being-in-Dreaming: An Initiation into the Sorcerers' World

The Yaquí tribe train men differently from women. There's a number of lucid dream sequences. The book reads more as travel writing. It doesn't go into detail about the traditions due to power in secrets according to their magic systems. Lots of it relies on preparations of plant psychedelics. Especially Florinda Donner Shabono: A Visit to a Remote and Magical World in the South American Rain Forest which relates experience with Ayurhuasca . I liked Being in Dreaming better.