The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of April 4th - April 10th, we are reading STAYING ON - Chapters One and Two (pg. 1-30)~ Staying On, (pg. 1-30))

The week's reading assignment is:

Week One- April 4th - April 10th ~ Chapters One and Two -(pg. 1-30)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on April 4th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on April 4th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Paul Scott

Chapter Summaries and Overviews

Prologue

The author sets the stage for the lives of the British who stayed in India 25 years after the British Raj came to an end.

1 - Chapter One

We find ourselves in 1972 India, back in the town of Pankot that we left in the Raj Quartet and find that Colonel "Tusker" and Mrs. Smalley are still living there at the old Lodge which is now an annex of Smith's Hotel. We meet the owner of Smith's, the termagant and hypochondriac Mrs. Boolabhoy and her subservient husband. A new modern hotel, The Shiraz is now hiring Smith's employees and it appears that something is in the air.

2 - Chapter Two

Tusker is seriously ill and becomes worse when Mrs. Boolabhoy puts new conditions in the lease for the Lodge. He fires his servants, although he seems to do that every month. His world seems to be falling apart and he is found dead.

Question: How do you interpret the attitude of the Indians we meet in these first two chapters toward the remaining British who were part of the old Raj?

Hi folks..........this is the last book of the Raj series, although not part of the Quartet but is set 25 years later and has some of the same characters. Even if you haven't read the Quartet, this is a stand-alone book and we hope you will join us.

Hello Jill and we are on the home stretch - what a series - I personally loved loved it. It is like an English War and Peace and I think we all learned so much about the Raj and the Indian/English relationship during this period of history and told by a master story teller. I can say that this is a rich conclusion to the wonderful quartet and ties up quite a few loose ends. I so enjoy revisiting this Man Booker prize winner - Staying On with all of you. This is really a standalone book and hopefully it will give those who have not given the Raj a whirl - the impetus to do so.

One thing that I have noticed is that some of the roles are reversing and the occupiers are now sort of looked at as interlopers - or as the kind of relatives who come to stay at your home and overstay their welcome.

Jill are there any characters that you miss after reading the first four books or that you are curious about. I think everybody has their favorites or ones that they are dead set against.

What about the group members who have been on this journey with us - were there some characters that you hated leaving behind or felt like you were losing an old friend?

I like your analogy of a guest who stays too long! I think that the Indians are just tolerating the British at this point except for those loyal retainers who stayed with their British employers. It is probably too early to know but I get a feeling that those who did not work for the British directly during the Raj and are of certain age are laughing up their sleeves. We will have to see in coming chapters how the young who really did not live under British rule feel about it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The old venerable past versus the throwing out the baby with the bath water and being left with those who do not remember but feel that you don't belong because they do not understand a time when you did. Now the ones who never had any loyalty or reference for the British ways or culture or learned anything constructive from it - will just want to dispense with the trouble of these formalities that they don't understand and do not see as being useful to their survival. I think the Indians are getting back to basics and seeing what they had never been doing as a chore of great magnitude. They probably feel that their countrymen are like herding cats. And wonder how the British did it with such aplomb and pagentry.

Do other readers have an opinion of the Indians' attitudes?........it appears they could range from "who cares" to hostility to acceptance.

All, we are open so just post and discuss.

One of the major changes in India is touched upon in the first few pages of the book. Mrs. Bhoolabhoy plays bridge and is a member of the Pankot Gymkhana Club. Previously that was an "only British allowed" social club and Indians only were allowed if they were employed there as servants. Now it seems to be a social center for the Indian well-to-do. Rather than close it when the British left, the Indians may have been making a statement by turning it into what is has become.....a subtle slap in the face perhaps?

Yes, I caught that too. They are almost saying - out with the old - in with the new - And don't let the door hit you on the way out (smile)

Independence has brought other problems in the area of trade. The building of the airport had helped Smith's Hotel by bringing guests and the airlines kept their office in Smith's.It was a favorite place for the British. Now a big, modern hotel, the Shiraz has been built, the airport office has been moved there and the Shiraz is attracting the better class of guest. Smith's is slowly sinking financially. We are only a few pages into the book and already the absence of the British is evidenced........or would this economic situation happened even in the Raj?

Yes, I miss them but I think that the a great many Indians did not and do not. Although at the time the Indian leadership was worried about the vacuum created.

"The Letter", as Mr. Boo refers to the announcement of a lease change to the Smalley's has been delivered. by Ibriham, Smalley's long time servant. Is the lease change done out of just spite or is Smith's financial situation on its last legs? Is Mrs. Boo trying to get rid of the Smally's and freeing up the Lodge for other purposes?

I did not like Mrs. Boo - what about you Jill - I think these are great questions.

All, we are discussing Staying On so please do not be shy and join in.

I think she has all kinds of motives that form her persona and I am hoping she will become a major character. But you know Scott, he introduces someone interesting and then they are only peripheral to the story!

Looks like Mrs. Boo is planning on selling Smith's to the Shiraz and with "the letter" is trying to free herself from her last British guests, the Smalleys. She partially made her goal as Tusker drops dead after reading it Are you getting the impression that the Smalleys are the last Brits in Pankot that represent the Raj? Why did they stay on?

Jill folks must be trying to catch up because we have 14 signed up and everybody is shy. Yes, I think that the Smalleys are being very poorly treated and I think that this is an example of the shoe being on the other foot. I don't think that Tusker could leave psychologically - maybe they or he felt that India resonated more with them than England. Hard to say what happens to people when they settle in.

Jill, Bentley having just read the first two chapters it is so good to be back in India; it is like an old friend. It is clear that the Smalley's' are about to be evicted. What I found fascinating was the loyalty of Ibrahim and how he regretted the passing of the days of the Raj.

Lorna......I think there were many Indians that indeed longed for the days of the Raj. They had become so attached to their employers that being under the rule of Britain really didn't seem to bother them. Things were pretty stable and well run and everyone knew what to expect. Then came independence and the Partition (which was a bloody time) and their world was so very different. I certainly am not trying to romanticize the Raj but India on its own had huge problems to overcome without the British and it did not work out well.

Agreed Jill, thank you!

Even though Tusker is firing Ibrahim again, I somehow get the feeling that these serial firings are just an old man's temper and that he probably also has a certain loyalty to Ibrahim. Lorna's question got me to thinking about the role that Indian servants played. If they were in a higher position ,such as personal servant to the sahib or mem'sahib, they really had more power that we realize and the British depended upon them for almost everything. It was a symbiotic relationship but only extended to those who had been a part of the Raj, such as Ibriham or Minnie.

How do you interpret the relationship between the British and their Indian servants?

Lorna - thank you for posting - we are delighted with everybody posting their thoughts about the book - and you are so right - "it was good to be back in India". I truly love this saga which is a true English War and Peace. The English influences are still seen today in so many countries including India.

We love reading your posts so now that you have dipped your toe into the waters - don't be shy (smile).

by Leo Tolstoy

Thank you Bentley. Jill interesting questions about Ibrahim's status in working for the Smalleys. At one point Ibrahim muses about working for the Smalleys for several interesting and tumultuous years. The fact that they were the last survivors of Pankot's permanent retired British residents and that he was "England-Returned" gave him a certain cachet among the other servants. (Location 311)

It does give him the hint of authority and he uses it to his advantage but not against the Smalleys. Of course, he is afraid that they will go back to England and since we know from page one that Tusker dies, and that the book is a look at the Smalleys life before that event, I wonder if Mrs. S. will return to England or if we will ever know.

I wonder what Tusker means about "the débacle" in Bombay?......and that they should have gone home then? Thinking back to the Quartet, nothing springs to mind that might have happened that involved the Smalleys. Am I forgetting something......I'm sure we will find out later but Scott always drops hints about things that may have happened in earlier books. I may be reading too much into it and that it is some event that has never been mentioned.

Maybe it had to do with an historical event - does he give a year - I cannot remember.

What date:

Here are few incidents in Bombay: (do you think it was one of these?) - Source: DNAIndia.com

I. However, the most important event in Bombay early in 1915 was Mahatma Gandhi's visit, which led to mass movement in support of the freedom struggle.

II. Bombay Harbour: Where the most spectacular revolt against the British rule took place

The Royal Indian Navy Mutiny of February 18, 1946, at Bombay Harbour marked the first and most serious revolt by Indian sailors against the British rule. Shipmen posted at HMS Talwar announced a strike to oppose the Raj. The next day, they took over the naval trucks and started patrolling the city, inviting the masses to join in the struggle. Union Jacks were torn down and the rebels hoisted red flags. Within 48 hours the revolt spread to 74 ships, 20 fleets and 22 units of the navy along the coast of Calcutta, Karachi, Madras, Cochin and Vishakhapatam.

Despite widespread effect, the revolt failed to get the political backing. On February 22-23, over 250 sailors were killed by the imperialist forces. Strikers were forced to surrender. Most of them were executed later. However, after the navy uprising, the British prime minister announced that the British would leave India before June 1948.

III. Goalie Tank Maidan: The place of the Quit India resolution where the Tricolor was first hoisted

On July 14, 1942, the Indian National Congress passed a resolution demanding complete freedom to the nation from the British. On the intervening night of August 8-9, 1942, the Congress passed the famous 'Quit India resolution', which electrified the country. This has become the popular 'Quit India Movement', and the mass civil disobedience movement was launched with Mahatma Gandhi's "do or die" call.

The British police treated the masses brutally. At that time, Aruna Asaf Ali hoisted the Tricolour on the Gowalia Tank Maidan proudly, which was a first.

Within a few hours of the resolution and call, all national leaders were arrested. As there were no leaders outside, the movement became violent. The British government moved the army and more than 1 lakh people were arrested. All leaders and freedom fighters who participated in the movement were released only after three years, after World War II ended.

No date was given that's why I was puzzled. I am wondering if it was a personal humiliation of some type rather a political one. Hopefully we will find out later on.

Hmmm - is all that I will say - 1947 was when India became independent and this is later of course. I think he probably is talking about the Bombay Harbour incident.

Hmmmmmmm.......you know but you wont' do a spoiler!!! (smile)

(smile)