All About Books discussion

To go along with the Spring Drama focus of "Modern Approaches to the Classics", we've discussed reading this classic play cycle by Sophocles. The translators of the copy I have (The Oedipus Cycle) are Dudley Fitts & Robert Fitzgerald. I'm curious if anyone else has a favorite translation to recommend.

I just checked and the free kindle edition I have was translated by F. Storr. I have no idea whether this is good or bad, but it's what I'll be going with. Do we have a timescale for reading these?

Pink wrote: "Do we have a timescale for reading these?"

I'm open as I can read it anytime. What does everyone think? When is a good time, or is it better to keep it open?

I have the public domain Kindle edition translated by Storrs as well. It isn't great is my memory from reading Oedipus Rex a year or so ago so I may try to get a more recent translation from the library...

I will join all of you.

I've just bought The Theban Plays for my Kindle. The translator is E.F. Watling, and it seems to have good reviews. Interestingly, I didn't find this edition when I searched for Oedipus Trilogy for my Kindle.

I have the Fitts & Fitzgerald translation - I picked it up at a library sale. I think I can join in. I also want to read Eurydice and have a group read scheduled in another group (The Tempest). They're both short though, and if this one is extended until June I'm sure I'll fit it in somewhere.

Greg wrote: "To go along with the Spring Drama focus of "Modern Approaches to the Classics", we've discussed reading this classic play cycle by Sophocles. The translators of the copy I have ([book:The Oedipus C..."

Robert Fitzgerald was the translator of the day back in the 60s when I was first reading the Greeks.

Gill wrote: "I've just bought The Theban Plays for my Kindle. The translator is E.F. Watling, and it seems to have good reviews. Interestingly, I didn't find this edition when I sea..."

Which translation of Antigone was it that you weren't crazy about Gill? Just curious. I liked the translation I have when I read it some time ago, but I wonder if I should try another.

Which translation are you going to read Portia?

Greg, it was the free kindle edition that Pink and Lesie have mentioned.

I'm going back and forth between The Three Theban Plays, because I like Fagles, and the Storr. Will probably buy the paperback and download the other in Kindle.

Hhm, so Leslie you have the same free kindle edition but didn't like the translation? I could try the library for another version if the consensus is that the Fitts and Fitzgerald translation would be better? I might start the Storr edition and see how I get on, but I won't have anything to compare it to!

I am free to start from Monday. Does anyone know if they are particularly long or short plays?

The plays are each short (~85 pages or 1½-2 hours of audiobook).

Pink, my memory of the translation by Storrs is that it was one of those late Victorian ones which use the Roman names for the gods - a pet peeve of mine - and language on the ornate side. It wasn't terrible but it wasn't the type that would convert someone into a fan of the ancient Greek classics.

I felt with Storr that one of the main aims was to produce a translation in rhyme, and that this distorted the original. However, I won't be certain of this until I read a different translation.

I'll give a look if I can find something at hime, obviously in Italian. My father loved ancient Greek theatre, and had some copies od Sofocle, but I can't remember if they fell on my brother's lot or mine!
What's the timeline?

LauraT wrote: "I'll give a look if I can find something at hime, obviously in Italian. My father loved ancient Greek theatre, and had some copies od Sofocle, but I can't remember if they fell on my brother's lot ..."

Great to have you join us Laura if you can! :)

What does everyone prefer - should we all do this at our own pace over the Spring to coincide with the drama theme, or should we set a tentative start date for those who want to read together? Or both?

I think both is a good idea, Greg.

Hmm, Leslie and Gill, your comments have made me think I want a different translation. I'll see what the library has.

Has anyone started yet? I've had trouble tracking down a translation I'm happy with, but I read a bit of my free kindle versions and I wasn't keen on the language. I'm assuming this is due to the problems that have been mentioned before- Roman names, flowery Victorian writing that forces the rhyme etc.

Gill how is the kindle edition you bought? I can't preview it and I don't want to purchase it if I might still have the same issues.

Pink wrote: "Has anyone started yet? I've had trouble tracking down a translation I'm happy with, but I read a bit of my free kindle versions and I wasn't keen on the language. I'm assuming this is due to the p..."

I think it will be fine. So far, I've only started reading the introduction, Pink. That's interesting, and a quick flick through the actual plays, looks as if they're a lot better than in the free version. For instance, there's no attempt at rhyme, which I think will mean it's a better translation. I'll be starting the plays proper in a couple of days.

This is the one I've got The Theban Plays.

Pink I was waiting until people were ready. I can start anytime. Should we officially start next week everyone? Does that work?

Pink, I do like the translation I have by Fitts & Fitzgerald. Like Gill's, it doesn't rhyme, but it has grace in its straightforwardness.

For instance, on the second page of Oedipus Rex:

Priest: It is a timely promise. At this instant
They tell me Creon is here.

Oedipus: O Lord Apllo!
May his news be fair as his face is radiant!

Priest: It could not be otherwise: he is crowned with bay,
The chaplet is thick with berries.

I like that last bit "thick with berries." The translation preserves just a hint of poetry without overly convoluting things in an attempt to preserve precise meters and rhymes. I think you're right Gill & Pink; some of the rhymed translations feel overly forced.

I decided to purchase this second hand copy, translated by Robert Fagles. The Three Theban Plays: Antigone / Oedipus the King / Oedipus at Colonus

I'll start as soon as it arrives, which should be the start of next week.

Pink wrote: "I decided to purchase this second hand copy, translated by Robert Fagles. The Three Theban Plays: Antigone / Oedipus the King / Oedipus at Colonus

I'll start as soon as it arrives, whi..."

That's meant to be a good translation, Pink. I nearly got that one.

Gill, I figured either of those translations would be fine, but I got a paperback copy of the Fagles translation for about £1 cheaper.

I have the Fagles translation.

I suggest we set up some sort of loose schedule, just so we can know where we are supposed to be when.

Portia wrote: "I have the Fagles translation.

I suggest we set up some sort of loose schedule, just so we can know where we are supposed to be when."

Does anyone have a suggestion as to schedule? I'm open. Should we just set start times for each of the three plays in the cycle? If so, what do you think the timeframe should be?

I'm open to any timescale as I believe they're quite short. Maybe one a week?

Sounds good to me Pink.

Would everyone be ready to start next week? How about Monday?

If we did that, the schedule would be:
Start Oedipus Rex - 4/11
Start Oedipus at Colonus 4/18
Start Antigone - 4/25

Greg wrote: "Sounds good to me Pink.

Would everyone be ready to start next week? How about Monday?

If we did that, the schedule would be:
Start Oedipus Rex - 4/11
Start [book:Oedipus at Colonus|..."

I'd prefer 11/4, 18/4 and 25/4, Greg (only joking!!)

Gill wrote: "I'd prefer 11/4, 18/4 and 25/4, Greg (only joking!!)
"

LOL Gill! :)

Greg, yes that looks great to me....but I'll be on Gill's timescale too ;)

I might not start on Monday, as I have to wait for my book to arrive, but I expect to receive it soon.

Oops, I didn't check here before rereading Oedipus Rex! Oh well I am only one day early :P

Pink, I really liked Fagles' translation of The Odyssey so I think you made a good choice.

Leslie wrote: "Oops, I didn't check here before rereading Oedipus Rex! Oh well I am only one day early :P

Pink, I really liked Fagles' translation of The Odyssey so I think you made a good choice."

LOL Leslie, I couldn't resist starting the prologue today myself :)

I do generally like Fagles. If someone with the Fagles translation or other translations feels industrious, can you post just a bit of the first Antistrophe from the chorus at the end of the prologue? I'm curious to compare translations just a bit so I can figure out whether to get another copy later as well.

Here's some of the first Antistrophe from that chorus from Fitts & Fitzgerald if anyone's interested:

O gods, descend! Like three streams leap against
The fires of our grief, the fires of darkness;
Be swift to bring us rest!

As in the old time from the brilliant house
Of air you stepped to save us, come again!

Now our afflictions have no end,
Now all our stricken host lies down
And no man fights off death with his mind;

The noble plowland bears no grain,
And groaning mothers can not hear--

See, how our lives like birds take wing,
Like sparks that fly when a fire soars,
To the shore of the god of evening.

The plague burns on, it is pitiless,
Though pallid children laden with death
Lie unwept in the stony ways,

And old gray women by every oath
Flock to the strand about the altars

There to strike their breasts and cry
Worship of Phoibos in wailing prayers:
Be kind, God's golden child!"

I like the straightforwardness of the Fitts & Fitzgerald and there is some poetry in it, but I bet some other translations did a better job with parts, for instance "Like sparks that fly when a fire soars." Not bad but I bet others translated that better. Still, quite readable, and I'm happy enough with it so far.

Someone in another group introduced me to 'serial reader', an app which allows you to read books in serial, delivered once a day to your phone or tablet. I don't know if anyone has heard of this or uses it?

They have Oedipus Rex and Antigone on there, but no Oedipus at Colonus at the moment, though you can make requests. I don't know which translations are use, but they have lots of other big classics available if anyone is interested.

Greg, I haven't got my Fagles copy yet, but I'll post the same passage for comparison when it arrives.

Greg wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Oops, I didn't check here before rereading Oedipus Rex! Oh well I am only one day early :P

Pink, I really liked Fagles' translation of The Odyssey so I think you made a good choice...."

Greg, thus is more than interesting. I'm looking for this section, and can't find it. More to the point, I can't even find a prologue. I'm still looking!

Can you identify what happens straight after this bit? It might help me find it. Thanks

I couldn't find the corresponding passage on the app I mentioned either. There was a very short paragraph that might have been the same section, but it was very different, so I'm not sure.

Pink wrote: "Someone in another group introduced me to 'serial reader', an app which allows you to read books in serial, delivered once a day to your phone or tablet. I don't know if anyone has heard of this or..."

The app looks interesting, Pink. Thanks

No problem Gill, I agree it looks great, with so many choices. I think it will be good for longer books that I don't want to read all at once. A modern return to the serial format!

I listened to a "new translation" (unnamed translator) published by Naxos Media in 1999 - maybe it is the Fagles? In any case, it is difficult to quote from that edition. But my public domain Kindle edition with the Storrs translation has this, which I think is the same passage as Greg quoted. It is not labeled as a prologue but it is very near the beginning.

"CHORUS
strophe 1

Sweet-voiced daughter of Zeus from thy gold-paved Pythian shrine
Wafted to Thebes divine,
What dost thou bring me? My soul is racked and shivers with fear.
Healer of Delos, hear!
Hast thou some pain unknown before,
Or with the circling years renewest a penance of yore?
Offspring of golden Hope, thou voice immortal, O tell me.

antistrophe 1

First on Athene I call; O Zeus-born goddess, defend!
Goddess and sister, befriend,
Artemis, Lady of Thebes, high-throned in the midst of our mart!
Lord of the death-winged dart!
Your threefold aid I crave
From death and ruin our city to save.
If in the days of old when we nigh had perished, ye drave
From our land the fiery plague, be near us now and defend us!

strophe 2

Ah me, what countless woes are mine!
All our host is in decline;
Weaponless my spirit lies.
Earth her gracious fruits denies;
Women wail in barren throes;
Life on life downstriken goes,
Swifter than the wind bird's flight,
Swifter than the Fire-God's might,
To the westering shores of Night.

antistrophe 2

Wasted thus by death on death
All our city perisheth.
Corpses spread infection round;
None to tend or mourn is found.
Wailing on the altar stair
Wives and grandams rend the air--
Long-drawn moans and piercing cries
Blent with prayers and litanies.
Golden child of Zeus, O hear
Let thine angel face appear! "

ok, Thanks Leslie.
I think this is the same part, well the beginning of it anyway:

In Thebes, City of Light, from the Pythian House of Gold The gracious voice of heaven is heard. With fear my heart is riven, fear of what shall be told. O Healer of Delos, hear! Fear is upon us. What wilt thou do? Things new, or old as the circling year? Speak to us, Daughter of Golden Hope! Come, deathless word! Deathless Athena! First, Daughter of Zeus, on thee We call; then on thy sister Queen Artemis, over our city enthroned in her majesty;

Sorry, I seem to have lost the line endings!

Second attempt, still no line endings, but I think it's the complete section from the chorus. I wish I was more computer literate!


In Thebes, City of Light, from the Pythian House of Gold The gracious voice of heaven is heard. With fear my heart is riven, fear of what shall be told. O Healer of Delos, hear! Fear is upon us. What wilt thou do? Things new, or old as the circling year? Speak to us, Daughter of Golden Hope! Come, deathless word! Deathless Athena! First, Daughter of Zeus, on thee We call; then on thy sister Queen Artemis, over our city enthroned in her majesty;

And Phoebus, Lord of the Bow; Show us again your threefold power This hour, as in ages long ago. From the fire and pain of pestilence save us and make us clean. Sorrows beyond all telling –Sickness rife in our ranks, outstripping Invention of remedy –blight On barren earth, And barren agonies of birth –Life after life from the wild-fire winging Swiftly into the night. Beyond all telling, the city

Reeks with the death in her streets, death-bringing. None weeps, and her children die, None by to pity. Mothers at every altar kneel. Golden Athena, come near to our crying! Apollo, hear us and heal! Not with the rattle of bronze, but loud around us The battle is raging, swift the death-fiend flying. Fling to the farthest corners of the sea, Or to some bleak North bay, The onset of his armoury! Night’s agony grows into

tortured day. Zeus, let thy thunders crush, thy lightning slay! Slay with thy golden bow, Lycean! Slay him, Artemis, over the Lycian hills resplendent! Bacchus, our name-god, golden in the dance Of Maenad revelry, Euoe! thy fiery torch advance To slay the Death-god, the grim enemy, God whom all other gods abhor to see.

Thanks Leslie, Gill, and Pink! That's for sure the right section.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner! I used up my lunch hour running to the library to check out all the translations they had, one by H.D.F. Kitto and one by E.H. Plumptre it turns out.

So far I like Gill's translation and the Fitts/Fitzgerald one best. Gill, I love the straight-from-the-heart feel of some of what you posted, "With fear my heart is riven, fear of what shall be told." No feel of artifice in those lines at all.

Funny, the Fitts/Fitzgerald one seems to be the only one I've found that adds so many section division identifiers:

Prologue
Párodos
Scene I
Ode I
Scene II
Ode II
Scene III
Ode III
Scene IV
Ode IV
Éxodos

I'd just assumed that breakdown was standard when I talked about the "Prologue." Oops! :)

I think that this section is a good illustration for why I don't recommend the Storrs translation ;)

I took a quick peek at the SparkNotes for this trilogy and was surprised that they consider Oedipus Rex to be the second play rather than the first. I guess from what I saw that was based solely on the estimated date of "publication". Sophocles apparently wrote Antigone first!

Leslie wrote: "I think that this section is a good illustration for why I don't recommend the Storrs translation ;)

I took a quick peek at the SparkNotes for this trilogy and was surprised that they consider Oed..."

LOL, true Leslie :)

And I had no idea about that with Antigone! Should we change the order? I made the schedule based on the arrangement of the three plays in my book, but that might not be standard.

My vote is to keep this order - in terms of the characters, this order makes the most sense.

Leslie wrote: "My vote is to keep this order - in terms of the characters, this order makes the most sense."

Sounds good Leslie :)

I was unsure about the order too, but looked it up and this is what Wikipedia had to say -

Of his three Theban Plays that deal with Oedipus, Oedipus the King was the second to be written. However, in terms of the chronology of events that the plays describe, it comes first, followed by Oedipus at Colonus and then Antigone.

I'm still waiting for my Fagles copy to arrive, but I'm hoping it is closer to the Fitz and Fitzgerald version, which I think works well.

Oookay. I have the Fagles translation and what I think everyone is talking about begins with an invocation to Zeus.

Zeus!
Great welcome voice of Zeus, what do you bring?
What word from the gold vaults of Delphi (this line is numbered 170)

My copy of Fagles has the play beginning with Oedipus addressing his children.

Wheee! Three different ways of referring to the Oracle at Delphi.

I wonder if line identifiers would be good?

Portia wrote: "Oookay. I have the Fagles translation and what I think everyone is talking about begins with an invocation to Zeus.

Zeus!
Great welcome voice of Zeus, what do you bring?
What word from the gold v..."

Thanks Portia! And I think that's a great idea with the line designators, but unfortunately the Fitts/Fitzgerald translation doesn't have them. :(

I finished Oedipus the King tonight, and I found it deeply moving! I'd remembered liking it when I read it years ago, but I hadn't remembered all the power of this basic story! I love the broad strokes of many Greek plays ... no intricacy or contortions, just strong, fundamental emotions laid out in clean lines.

In the end, I really felt for Oedipus and was especially touched by (view spoiler)[Creon's compassion, his promises and kindness to Oedipus even after the unreasonable threats earlier in the play. (hide spoiler)].