Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Somewhat over a year ago I decided that I really should try to write the kind of stories I would want to read but can not find anywhere. (Seems like I've already read all those that exist.) I made great progress with researching, getting familiar with the classics and figuring out what makes them tick, and worldbuilding.
But try as I might, I can never come up with one or two good ideas for actual stories to start working on. I have three really great ideas, but those rely heavily on some scenes of high emotional impact that require an experienced hand. Which I really don't have at all yet.

So I am sitting here with all kinds of great ideas for characters, places, creatures, weird phenomena, but without the slightest clue how to start making a story about them. Without any good ideas, I tried starting with bad cliches just for practice, but those all had me lost all interest during outlining because I just didn't care about them at all.

Any ideas how I might approach this problem?

Well, I'll tell you the kinds of things I did when I started out, and the kind of advice I give when I talk to writers groups and such.

1. writing is never wasted. So one thing I did when I started out is just to write individual scenes involving characters or settings, without really trying, at that point, to make them a story. Later, I often found that some of these scenes ended up tying themselves together in various stories, although they usually needed to be revised a bit to fit.

2. Related to #1, I actually started a file early on that I called a 'parts' file. I kept all these scenes in it, and I still have it. I even kept write ups of various phenomena that took place in my invented worlds.

3. Also related to both the above, I started pretty early to keep a kind of "Encyclopedia" for each invented world I came up with. This would have brief descriptions of characters, races, plants, animals, cities, etc. I found this fun to do, and it also helped me hold the disparate threads of stories or settings together in my head where my unconscious could work on them. Some of these kinds of elements ended up in my dreams because of that.

4. A bit of advice I often give to other writers is to remember that "you can write ugly" when you begin. The 'story' doesn't have to be anything publishable when it first comes out onto the page. Writing allows you time to fix all that stuff later. I find that the act of writing itself often generates a flow of creativity and things come out better than I would have thought they would when I was just 'thinking' of the story.

5. Related to #4, I think that writing is really "rewriting." I've learned to enjoy it. I never have anything come out right when I first put it down, but I have confidence that I'll be able to fix it down the line.

6. Challenging yourself and your skills is, I think, an important part of getting better as a writer. You mention some scenes that you don't feel quite capable of tackling at the moment. But you might surprise yourself. And even if you don't get them as good as you want, they may still be enough to get the story across. And you can always revise later. I have taken stories that I wrote earlier in my career and revised them based on experience, sometimes turning the core into a completely new story, and sometimes just an expansion of an original tale. Lots and lots of writers do this. Poul Anderson clearly took some of his early stories and revised them into novels later on. So did Louis L'Amour. I have multiple versions of some of my stories, either with different endings, or just ones that were better developed as I grew in experience.

7. An analogy I find useful is that reading a story is like flying over a landscape in a plane. Writing that story is trudging the ground, going up and down the hills, fighting through the underbrush, wading the streams. It's a lot more difficult but one experience can't replace the other. When I first started out, I sometimes took really strong scenes by other writers, such as Howard, or Bradbury, and typed them out for myself to get a feel for sentence length, paragraph length, etc.

Anyway, that's some of my thoughts on the topic.

Luck,
Charles Gramlich

Trying some "very short stories" might be something that helps. I usually consider anything under 10,000 words not really worth publishing or reading as there's little room for any real substance. But for practice or as fragments to later build a larger story around it might serve me quite well.
Probably much better than trying to write 15,000 word stories with a character I don't care for doing something that bores me.

Great advice from Charles. I tried for years to delve right into a novel but could never write faster than the "world rules" would change.

I had to do baby steps as Charles mentioned. By concentrating on a short story only, I made progress. Subsequent stories I'd keep true to the previous ones. Eventually a coherent world emerged.

With the world rules (history and characters) set, I could then tackle a novel much easier.

Martin wrote: "Trying some "very short stories" might be something that helps. I usually consider anything under 10,000 words not really worth publishing or reading as there's little room for any real substance. ..."

Eh, some people's metier is long. Mine was originally short -- it's lengthened -- but if you try to force yourself to write to an unnatural length, it's not going to be easy, and also, there are issues because of the subtly different skill sets.

Martin wrote: " I have three really great ideas, but those rely heavily on some scenes of high emotional impact that require an experienced hand. Which I really don't have at all yet."

Which you are not going to get until you develop it. There is, alas, no way around writing that sort of stuff to learn how to do it.

(When I was first writing, I discovered that losing interest in a tale was a strong sign that I had to write it anyway, because it was a scene I wasn't strong at yet.)

Martin wrote: "Without any good ideas, I tried starting with bad cliches just for practice, but those all had me lost all interest during outlining because I just didn't care about them at all."

There is no such thing as a bad idea. There is only an inadequately treated idea.

Some ideas do need rather more treatment than others, to be sure. They need even more a practiced hand than others.

Mary wrote: "Which you are not going to get until you develop it. There is, alas, no way around writing that sort of stuff to learn how to do it."

Hence this thread.

Martin, there are many great points made here by fellow writers. I would add this: only you can write the story swirling inside your head, but until it gets on paper it is neither real nor tangible. Write it and work on it every day; see where it goes and you will be surprised--skills only grow by practicing the art. At this point, do not worry about your abilities (or presumed lack) as we are our greatest critics. As mentioned here, stories are polished during rewrite, so don't worry about the first drafts--they are always crap.

I follow the 3 C's required of all stories: Character--Conflicts--Conclusion. Some authors use different explanations, but these have worked well for me. Good Luck.

Despite the good comments, I have to get back one step to the original problem: How to decide what the story should be about?

Right now I have the idea "Exorcising a wendigo". That's a start, alright. But not a plot. How to continue from this point?

I sometimes use a question and answer technique to develop plots.

1st step, There's a Wendigo and you want to get rid of it.
Question 1: where is the Wendigo? (gets at setting)
2. What does the Wendigo want? (All characters should have some motivation, some reason for being where they are.)
3. what are the Wendigo's strengths?
4. What are its weaknessess?
5. What time frame are we dealing with? past, present,
and so on.

As I mentioned before, I often write these kinds of things out, not worrying whether they'll make a story yet. It helps me clarify

Charles wrote: "I sometimes use a question and answer technique to develop plots.

That sounds like a good approach. I only have a single rough image in mind as a starting point, but there's several good questions to ask:
- Who is possessed?
- Who is breaking the possession?
- Why does this person try to break the possession?
- How did the person gain the means to break the possession?

Already I have a second scene. Since the protagonist won't be a witch or something like that, he must have been told what to do by someone who knows it.
There also must have been a scene in which the protagonist was given the task. I might not actually put that scene into the story, but it must have happened before.

I did not know what a wendigo is (or was), so I did a bit of research and found out a few things: "A wendigo, also spelled windigo,[note 1] is a half-beast creature appearing in the legends of the Algonquian peoples along the Atlantic Coast and Great Lakes Region of both the United States and Canada. The creature or spirit could either possess characteristics of a human or a monster that had physically transformed from a person. It is particularly associated with cannibalism. The Algonquian believed those who indulged in eating human flesh were at particular risk;[4] the legend appears to have reinforced the taboo against the practice of cannibalism." This gave me a starting point.

Following up on Charles's good advice, asking questions:

Who is possessed? Daughter of the chief, medicine man, someone else? Is this the viewpoint character, and if not,
Who is charged with exorcising the beast? Parent of afflicted, medicine man, priest?
Cannabilism is a big thing in this legend, and that should be a part of the plot, I think.
Motivations seem clear to me as to the Why.
How can you add a twist to the idea? Control the wendigo to use against enemies, a friendly wendigo that desires to stop yearning for flesh, or something entirely different. Make a list of 10 or 12 ways the story could go; from there you will find the direction and plot.
Setting is clear per the legend (northeast U.S. /Great Lakes area among the Algonquian peoples), but you could always change it to say, the early Greeks of Egyptians if so inclined.
Creature of spirit or combination, such as, a person becomes--like a werewolf--during a certain time or season.
Follow the journalism questioning process: Who, what, when, where, why and how?

Martin, you have a kernel of a unique story line; it's your answers to the What if? question that will take it from idea to story, and of course, that means writing it down with all the possible variances. One will seem right, I'm sure. One suggestion: when putting down the ideas and possibilities, add them no matter how outrageous they seem: landed with a spaceship, an entire clan live in a secret valley, a break in a time dimension brings them into our world, or not in our world at all. Let your mind go crazy; who knows, you may come up with a few different ideas that might work.

Martin wrote: "Despite the good comments, I have to get back one step to the original problem: How to decide what the story should be about?

Right now I have the idea "Exorcising a wendigo". That's a start, alri..."

I write in phases that closely mirror traditional project management (specifically, software management) practices (i.e. my day job). You're in the Concepting phase.

I keep a notebook handy and whenever an idea such as "Exorcising a wendigo" pops into my head, I write it down. Sometimes secondary or cousin ideas come immediately after, so I write them down near the first one. Other times, more detailed elaboration of the first idea comes to mind, and I write them down. "Why is the exorcism taking place? How does the wendigo feel about it?" And I just kind of explore things like that.

Another VERY useful technique I have during the Concepting phase, is to talk with a friend and verbally brainstorm the ideas. I state an idea "Exorcising a wendigo" and my friend will take it one more step and say something like "Ooo, what if it's a chronic problem and a whole new profession of wendigo exorcists has cropped up?" and then that sparks something in my head and I take it one step more and add... You get the point.

Unlike a lot of people, I don't write until I know what I'm going to be writing. Before that, I conceptualize everything into what I consider a really solid idea. Then, I map out the details into what I call a "plot event list" (outline to most people), which is a series of single sentences listed in chronological order of how they will appear in the story. Each of those sentences then goes on to become a single scene (which I put into 'cards' within Scrivener). Only then do I start writing, one scene at a time. I don't have to worry too much about the creative side since I already mapped it all out; now I'm just filling in the details. My writing is extremely efficient this way, requiring very few rewrites, and my editor complains about it because it's slowly working her out of a job.

Your mileage may vary.

Yeah, that's roughly my approach as well.

Charles wrote: "reading a story is like flying over a landscape; Writing that story is trudging the ground, going up and down the hills, fighting through the underbrush, wading the streams. It's a lot more difficult... "

Very good analogy Charles. Also the statement, "the act of writing itself often generates a flow of creativity..." Very true. There is no such thing as writer's-block when you look at it that way. Writer's-block is just a socially acceptable excuse to not write.

Now for the premise of the thread. Coming up with plots.

I take a scene based approach. Let a scene play out in your imagination. Not just any scene, the coolest, most bad ass scene you can imagine. Now fuh-getta-bout it. Go do something else, rake the yard, do the dishes. Let it simmer on the back burner. Let the scents waft through the folds in your gray matter. Sleep on it. It will either grow on you, or get dumped on garbage night.

Guess i'd better give props to the King of word-count. I heard it from him first. But for me it works. The good ideas linger. They grow on you. Naturally. And one scene leads to the next. Before you know it, you're asking yourself, `Who is that masked man? How did he get here? Where did he come from? What does he want? What kind of a man is he?' The story unfolds like the pupa stage of an insect.. It aint pretty. Hell, it's probably not even recommended. But it works for me. The ideas never stop coming. At some point, when i have enough scenes, i drop them into a timeline, a.k.a an outline. And once you know your characters, they can actually guide you along. They'll let you know if something feels off.

And one scene leads to the next. Before you know it, you're asking yourself, `Who is that masked man? How did he get here? Where did he come from? What does he want? What kind of a man is he?' The story unfolds like the pupa stage of an insect.. It aint pretty. Hell, it's probably not even recommended. But it works for me."

Me, too.

When in doubt, have a man come through the door with a gun in his hand -- alter as appropriate for genre -- and make sure you ensure in the revision that it's not a deus ex machina but fits in.

Martin wrote: "Right now I have the idea "Exorcising a wendigo". That's a start, alright. But not a plot. How to continue from this point?"

Who's the exorcist? Why is this person doing it? Note that "because wendigos are horrible and need to be exorcised" does not answer it, because it has to be specific for THIS person. It could be because it's his only chance to win respect in the tribe, to show up his father, because he's in love with the person to be exorcised. . . .