Chicks On Lit discussion

Hi everyone! I was wondering if anyone might be interested in joining in on a buddy read of Alexander Hamilton? I know it's a big book and some people just finished a big book on Lincoln, but I'm eager to tear into this one (namely because of the musical- anyone seen it yet?). I already have a copy of the book, but I probably wouldn't start until the end of the month when I'm on vacation. :)

You might actually rope me into this one because I am praying our group of friends can get tickets to the Hamilton production when it hits Chicago. They started taking group reservations but ran out of the those so fast, we are on a waiting list. The theater is "thinking" about opening another window of opportunity in June before they go on sale to the public in July. Hoping... and of course its based on this book and totally brilliant. It would just be me trying to keep up as usual. I had some major shoulder surgery and doing anything around the house is slow and difficult one armed and left handed.

Hope you're on the mend! We could take it slow, 40 or 50 pages a week?

I was listening to some of the songs on youtube and I liked them so much that I used a gift card from Christmas to buy the soundtrack and the book! I might have to see about taking a long weekend this summer and go to NYC and see it!

I hope you get the chance to do that Jennifer. I really want to see it. That should be something I can keep up with except when my last concert hits and grades are due. Keep me posted. It's already on my amazon cloud just waiting to be loaded.

Also interested. If you read it when I am available, I'll join in.

Yikes! There are NO tickets left in NYC through January. I can buy resale tickets for the "low" price of $500 each! No thank you.

OK, I'll get a schedule for the first couple of weeks and we can adjust after that.

By April 16, read the prologue through chapter 2
April 23 chapters 3 and 4
April 30 chapters 5 and 6
May 7 chapters 7 and 8

Hi ladies, have you had a chance to start? I'm part way through chapter 1. I found the prologue interesting, starting with his wife, I wouldn't have expected that.

I finally started this one last night and read through the end of chapter 2 in a single sitting. I think I should catch up before long. I am finding this very interesting and engaging. I knew nearly nothing about this founding father. It is only since the musical became popular that I even realized that he grew up in relative poverty in the Caribbean. I am fascinated by people who achieve something significant against the odds and he is an an example of this that I had not known before. Thank you for starting this buddy read.

I also started this last week and am in the same spot, starting chapter 2. It's interesting Hamilton came from such a background and we still obsess over the childhoods of our current president and a few candidates.

Oops not the same spot but I'll catch up.

I'm only into chapter 3 myself, so we're all in about the same area. I agree, Irene, the early circumstances of his life are almost unbelievable. And yet he seems to have done his best to leave them behind.

My favorite tragedy so far (if I can say such a thing), has been the boat catching fire and limping into Boston. I can't hardly imagine, here he thinks he's leaving hard times behind and he can barely make it into port!

I finished chapter 6 over the weekend. So, I am caught up with the schedule. I will wait for others to catch up. I don't enjoy reading military history, so the chapters on his military career were less engaging for me. But, I am at the end of that period.

I am part way through chapter 5. I think the info on Washington is interesting. I picture him as stoic and wise, but prone to angry outbursts wasn't part of my view of him. I am also realizing that I have a large gap in my knowledge of the Revolution. I am having a hard time recognizing the events as they are described in the book. Lexington and Concord were over before I realized that's what just happened! I don't think I remembered that the British took over NYC either. I'm having a better time recognizing people and events that I've heard in the musical.

I am mid chapter five as well and finding some of the same reactions. I am not nearly as versed in the Revolution - not that I am all that savvy to the Civil War, WWI or II, much less Korea, Vietnam... although I probably know more than some people I talk to. Its not a lunch conversation at work that's for sure.

I am amazed at Hamilton's assimilation to the colonies and what a writer and orator he became at such a young age. Perhaps that is not so out of pace given our modern culture seems to delay adulthood later and later. He was quite intuitive and perceptive about British/rebellion politics and battle strategies.

I was surprised how much self-confidence he seemed to possess, especially given his background. I would have expected a bit of an inferiority complex, some self-doubt over his lack of wealth, possession, family status, education, but he does not seem to question his abilities or his right to move into leadership.

I would have expected that too. But he was also hiding it in some ways. I wonder if, as Chernow suggests, Scott was actually his biological father as opposed to Hamilton. Then there is the debate about his age and whether he lied about it to appear younger in college.

So I have been inspired to go hunting around for other information and found a really interesting site that is interactive stuff on the Revolutionary War. It filled in some of the gaps for me. I am too much of a visual person and I needed to see some of this in maps. Actually it does animation for several different wars historically. But it took me a while to discover that you have to keep clicking Play to get each segment of the battle. Still kind of interesting. Its probably the teacher in me. http://historyanimated.com/verynewhis...

I also watched a good video on the musical Hamilton - and I've seen a number of them. But this was an longer interview with Katie Couric and Lin-Manuel Miranda. And the article discusses all the Tony nominations. https://www.yahoo.com/music/hit-music...

I will be slowing down a little - this is our last two weeks of school. I have two more concerts, one tonight and one Thursday. Then grades are due by May 20 and we have to go back the Monday after to clean out our rooms and check out. I had such massive shoulder surgery in March, that moving stuff around is slow and challenging. I'm not far behind though, so don't wait for me.

I suspect he lied about his age so he would not seem so much older than everyone else in college. I was surprised to learn that most boys started college around age 14 back then. Obviously, the educational system was much different than today. I would like to learn more about this. Being so much older than his peers would have positioned him to immerge as a leader in that context. He would have been much more mature.

Take your time, Nancy. I'm only getting into chapter 6. He's just been involved in his first duel.

I agree with your earlier comment, Irene, about the fact that he easily could have, but doesn't seem to, had an inferiority complex.

The schooling is interesting. Do you think what we call high school is what they were doing going to university? He really seems like a go-getter. He just meets people and writes opinionated letters and gives speeches. Being so introverted myself, I have a hard time picturing just launching myself into any of that stuff, let alone in a new country in a political upheaval!

I suspect that the schooling was structured differently. Without the lab sciences and technical elements of our curriculum, I think the emphasis was on philosophy, rhetoric, classical languages and the like. In many ways, I think those young men would have advanced far beyond a typical high school degree today and in other ways, far behind. I would like to know more about the entire system.

So of course I looked it up. I was familiar with some of it, knowing education was primarily built around religion, particularly the Puritans. Massachusetts was the first to have compulsory school but based on town size. Most children were schooled at home, the wealthy having private tutors. According to what I read, the teen years were indeed when they entered either a prep academy or college. Literacy has always been greater in the north as opposed to the south all the way to the late 1800's. And of course inequities in poverty, gender and race were all a large piece of the puzzle. Emphasis was as you said Irene, on the classics, some math depending and little science.

I am in chapter 6 and have to say one of the things that stands out to me was Washington's rivals in Conway and Gates. Every time I read about our historical heroes it never ceases to amaze me what kind of contentious opposition surrounds them. It tends to disappear with time and distance...or is in general written out of the cursory look at history most of us get in school. For instance Irene - the opposition to Lincoln in Team Of Rivals. And his ambiguous stance on slavery until later in the game. At any rate, Washington certainly gave a lot of power to Hamilton. Also curious about his friendships with Laurens and Lafayette. I do doubt that it was anything more than a deep friendship. This is far from the first time I have seen evidence of men's relationships being expressed with more affection than is acceptable now days.

Thanks for the info.

I agree about the rivalry and heated debates and anger provoked by our historical figures. In some ways, it actually makes me feel better about our current politics: if Washington or Jefferson or Lincoln were that despised, maybe we aren't in so much trouble.

Exactly where my brain was going! Perhaps this isn't as unusual or bad is it seems, but I still find the level of conflict disturbing.

Though I don't know for sure, I think things are going to get much more heated between Hamilton and Jefferson as the book progresses.

My understanding is that the tension between Jefferson and Hamilton is still present between their philosophical descendants to this day.

I think you are probably right.

Are we going to keep to 2 chapters a week for our reading schedule? I finished chapter 8 last night.

Irene wrote: "My understanding is that the tension between Jefferson and Hamilton is still present between their philosophical descendants to this day."

Interesting - I was NOT aware of that familial conflict. I'm going to have to look in to that.

I will try and keep up with two chapters. Although as I said - this is the last week of school, lots of clean up and grades. Memorial weekend we are making a quick trip to CO to see a good friend who's cancer has progressed very quickly. I'm heartbroken and feeling this could be the last time we will see him given my limitations with school schedules. It will give me lots of car time to read. And I'm having my left knee replaced June 6 - don't know what to expect as far as ability to read - painwise or rehab wise etc. I'll do my best. This is so long overdue. Too many years of running.

You're so busy!

I think 2 chapters a week is a good plan. I'm part way through chapter 7, but it's moving along quicker for me.

Nancy, So sorry to read about your friend's cancer. I hope your knee replacement goes smoothly.

I think that Hamilton is seen as the "father" of those who advocate for a larger role for the federal government, for taxes to pay for these services, for more centralized goverment. Jefferson is seen as the "father" of those who advocate for very limited government role and very limited taxation, for decentralization of services to the state level.

Good condensation of the difference between the two!

I'm into chapter 9. I love how smitten he is with Eliza and his son!

It's also interesting to see the formation of the country. I guess I never thought about how the states would feel about coming together after the war. Even the northern ones, including my home NY. Fascinating stuff.

I am almost to the end of chapter 8. I too Irene am weary of the battle stuff - not the most interesting. There is so much going on! I was surprised at Hamilton's parting ways with Washington, surprised at the dichotomy of his intellectual certainty in matters of nationalism, economy etc. and at the same time he struggled with some basic self esteem. I was surprised at the relationship with his wife and her sister - and at least so far - no one seems upset by it. I keep thinking I should have made notes for myself. Fascinating his observations on the struggle between aristocracy versus anarchy and how the fledgling country must meet somewhere in the middle.

Been cleaning in my classroom all weekend. Check out tomorrow. I am ready to be done. Leaving town Friday, but hopefully will have some good long reading time on the road.

I was on the Cursillo retreat team this weekend, so I am behind in my reading.

I hope you had a lovely time Irene. Were you 'working' it or sitting back to enjoy? I might actually catch up to you - but I doubt it! LOL! I am into chapter 9.

Working it. A wonderful weekend, but a bit stressful going into it because I was forging some new ground.

Got on the road earlier than expected. We decided to leave mid afternoon. Everyone got off work a little early. Amazing how a little undistracted quiet helps! Never happens in my life! So I'm starting Chapter 10. Obviously the eventual development of judicial, legislative and executive branches of govt was a complicated progression. It is interesting to me that he didn't want punishment or repercussions to Tories who chose to remain after the evacuation of New York, actually defending them in court.

I'm finding the legal focus more interesting than the military sections. I would like to see more of Hamilton's mind, more of the way he reasons and the premises on which his arguments are based.

I agree. And the comparison to Aaron Burr has been interesting. I'm not having a lot of respect for him in comparison. His comment to his wife was something no spouse should utter. Arrogant? Where Hamilton may have his moments of pride but also doubting himself. I feel in Chernow's descriptions of him he has a genuine passion for policy and law. Hence his abundant writing and orations. Not feeling that from Burr at all.

I don't know anything about Burr outside of what we are reading here. This author definitely paints Burr in a negative light. But, this author is a fan of Hamilton, so he probably does not like Hamilton's rival.

Exactly. He does at least offer some of the criticisms regarding Hamilton but usually comes round to explain and defend.

I took a few days off from this book to finish some others that had due dates. I'm up to chapter 10.

Where are you ladies in the book? I'm into chapter 12. I have to mow some lawn today, but then I hope to read some more.

I wonder at the hypocrisy of forming the Manumission Society when so many members had slaves. How could you sit there and talk about the rights of black men and women while you are keeping them enslaved??

I've also noticed the bias towards Burr. It might be interesting to read a book that views him more favorably.

I am finished with chapter 11.

I am starting chapter 12 as well. Yes - the whole slavery issue has been interesting. I had no idea the roots of that conflict went back all the way to the Revolution. This is quite hypocritical group. It was fascinating to see who were the proponents and opposing people in our 'founding fathers.'

Just getting home off the trip. More tomorrow.

Read chapter 12 last night. The debates behind the constructing of the federal government was interesting. It is even more amazing to me that we ended up with a system that has lasted as long as it has and that grew to be a superpower. Given the current deadlocks over budgets on both state and federal levels today, I have to give those guys quite a bit of credit for pulling off such a daunting task as writing a constitution for a new nation which was unlike anything they had known prior. The stakes were far higher back then and they managed to find a compromise around very different values and perceptions of what this new country needed. Why can't our political leaders do the same today?

I have caught myself repeatedly reflecting on how similar the conflicts are to the political turmoil we are in today. It does surprisingly seem to boil down to fears of who would hold how much power. What was for the good of the country versus the best interests of the individual. Chernow keeps targeting Clinton and New York in general as being antifederalist.

"Alexander Hamilton was haunted by George Clinton for reasons that transcended his political style. Hamilton's besetting ears was the American democracy would be spoiled by demagogues who would mouth populist shibboleths to conceal their despotism."

This is further explored in Chapter 13 and the Federalist Papers. I find these references quite telling. The Constitution was apparently in his opinion rather minimal and a compromise, but if I'm interpreting this correctly, the founding fathers felt it was enough in scope to be firm but flexible. And not just in the balance of powers.

Does anyone else find it amusing that they keep writing these articles for various thing with pseudonyms??

BTW - came across this hour+ special and thought it might be interesting. It is a Roosevelt Public Policy House program on Chernow, the book and the musical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKZYt...

I finished chapter 13 and started 14 last night. I think it's interesting that Hamilton keeps insisting that the Constitution and other early documents were meant to be flexible and were not perfect as created. It's interesting to me because I often hear people (politicians and pundits) say "well, that's not what the Founding Fathers meant." From my interpretation of what this book is showing is that Hamilton, at least, meant for the Constitution to grow and change.