The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Unreasonable Men
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
>
THE DISCUSSION IS OPEN - WEEK ONE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: UNREASONABLE MEN - April 11th - April 17th - Preface and Chapter One - The Bolt - (pages 1 - 30) - No Spoilers, please
message 2:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 14, 2016 04:20PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
The first week's reading assignment is:
Week One - April 11th - April 17th
Preface and Chapter One - The Bolt - (pages 1 - 30)
Chapter Overview and Summary:
Preface
The author Michael Wolraich describes the crisis in America at the dawn of the twentieth century and the gap between the rich and the poor. Obstructionism and congressional paralysis reigned supreme in the halls of congress and there was great discontent with the government.
Chapter One - The Bolt
In Chapter One, the reader is introduced to Half-Breeds and Stalwarts, Theodore Roosevelt and Robert Marion La Follette - bitter rivals with diametrically opposed methods and beliefs. Front-page headlines from New York City to the Arizona Territory announced the sensational news: "Bolt in Wisconsin." The Stalwarts had bolted the Red Gym and were holding a shadow convention to nominate their own candidates at the opera house. The greatest period of political change was about to begin.
message 3:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 08, 2016 10:20PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Please post and check the table of contents and syllabus.
We Begin:
As an introduction - for all folks who have received your book and for those of you who will receive your book - please post a brief intro here for your fellow readers of Unreasonable Men introducing yourself and at the same time give us your general impression of the Preface and Chapter One and details that made an impression on you right from the start - Remember we are only talking about Preface and Chapter One right now.
message 4:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 08, 2016 11:17PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
That way your fellow readers will get to know you "before we start posting about the book" and they feel comfortable interacting with you on these threads.
Remember Michael Wolraich will be joining us so please make sure to follow the reading schedule weekly and stay within that week's reading assignment - it makes it a very enjoyable reading and discussion experience that way if you do not get ahead. By the way, Michael Wolraich has already been posting on the Q&A thread so please make sure to pop over and post some of your questions there as well.
Here is the link to the Q&A thread with Michael: (pop over there throughout the discussion and ask him any questions that you might have).
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Everyone has received their books.
Remember follow the schedule. And don't read ahead. Just read your required pages for the week and post and discuss.
Have another book in the background to pick up so you do not get ahead on this one.
We are delighted to have Michael Wolraich with us.
So right now just post your intro etc. and say hello.
We will open the discussion to the book itself on April 11th - no earlier and no later.
Right now only introduce yourself here.
I. Hi I am xyz and from abc. I love history because of d and I am interested in this book and progressive politics and Theodore Roosevelt in general because of f. Or state what you are interested in if not the former.
Also try your hand at these pre discussion questions.
2. Tell us what you know about Theodore Roosevelt and Robert Marion La Follette before reading this book.
3. What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
4. What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary? Be civil and respectful but share your perspective if you can. This is not a thread to discuss the primaries in depth or your favorite candidate. In the Presidential Series folder - we do have threads where you can discuss that topic in depth. However, this thread is not that place.
For those who want to discuss the 2016 primary season (in depth) - please go to this thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
5. How involved are you in the primary season this election cycle? Are there "progressive candidates" running this time? Who do you think the progressive candidates are in your viewpoint and who are the conservatives? Or are there other labels or categories that current candidates fall into?
6. What are the chances of "contested conventions'? How successful do you think these conventions will be?
7. Do you think that politics and primaries in general are too acrimonious? Do you believe that these primaries and this election cycle are unique or do you think that it is more acrimonious today than in the past? Or is this more of the same or do you feel that politics has always had acrimonious cycles? Why or why not?
8. What surprised you the most about Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette in Chapter One?
Let us try to think about some of these answers before we begin our discussion and reading of the book to see if your impressions change after that or will they remain the same. Let us check back and find out.
message 5:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 08, 2016 11:16PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Sample:
Hello - I am Bentley - group owner - lead and moderator for this spotlighted read - I am living in the Metro New York City area. I have become even more interested in reading this book because of the current primary season. The state of affairs in 1904 doesn't seem initially to be vastly different than the current state of affairs. I am not sure if that is something to be depressed about or relieved that things are not as bad as one might think. Maybe the politics of 2016 is not as dark as some election periods that we have overcome in the past - so maybe hope springs eternal. I am very interested in learning about the dynamics of these two rivals - Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette and what are the similarities and the differences between progressive politics in 1904 and progressive politics today in 2016 - over a hundred years later.
Hello fellow readers. I'm Jill and am an Assisting Moderator in the areas of Military, European, British, and Music history. I live in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia and am a total history buff. American politics are not usually in my particular area of interest but this book appealed to me as I have read several books on Roosevelt. And Bentley hit the nail on the head when he referred to the current run for the White House.........I think it is reflective of what happened when TR and LaFollette butted heads all those years ago. I am looking forward to the discussions that arise from this spotlight read.
Hello, my name is Chris and I live in Southern CA. I'm interested in discussing this book because Theodore Roosevelt has always been my favorite president. I first learned about him in high school after watch a History Channel two-part documentary on TR with actor Richard Dreyfuss narrating TR's lines. From there I read the first two of
Edmund Morris's three volumes on TR, Theodore Rex and The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt Publisher: Modern Library. I even read TR's autobiography, Theodore Roosevelt: The Rough Riders and an Autobiography, which is published by the fantastic Library of America publishers. So, yes, TR has been a slight obsession of mine for a while.As to the other questions Bentley posted:
2. Tell us what you know about Theodore Roosevelt and Robert Marion La Follette before reading this book.
I think I answered what I know about TR above, so I will say that I know very little about Robert LaFollete other than that he was a major progressive of the era and that he was from Wisconsin, a very interesting state to be living in during the Progressive era. So, I'm interested in learning more about him.
3. What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
To me, progressive politics means strong federal governance, a social safety net, and strong checks on capitalism, especially in the face of obvious market failures.
4. What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary?
At the risk of sounding like a partisan hack, I am pleased with the way the Democratic minority have been handled themselves, but I am very upset with how the Republican majority have tried to run the government into ground. While Congress was designed to be a little unwieldy, the current obstructionism is absolutely ridiculous and will damage Congress' reputation for another generation.
In general, I feel good about politics. When it is working correctly, it can represent the best of America with people from different backgrounds and different political views coming to together, compromising, and generating the best solution for all parties involved. Good politics, like baseball, is an American pastime.
I also feel good about the executive branch. In the face of unprecedented obstructionism, mockery and contempt, Pres. Obama has comported himself well. But I am 50/50 about the judiciary. Oftentimes the Supreme Court has handed down great decisions and dissents that have shaped America for generations, but it is astounding how narrow-sighted these 9 men and women can be when it comes to interpreting the Constitution and the law. Whenever there is a big case before the Supreme Court, I feel like I have to hold my breath before I hear their decision.
I am looking forward to discussing this book with everyone.
message 8:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 09, 2016 09:24AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
message 9:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 09, 2016 10:36AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
You were fine with how you answered the questions and you did not cross the line. We welcome all sides of the aisle. I think that some of the readers will side with La Follette possibly and others might side with Theodore or both at different times and all is good.
I think the preliminary questions have a lot of value to see where folks are coming from and all of the different perspectives in the group when reading and discussing any book including this one.
Lately I think both sides are holding their breath and that happens when there is such a partisan climate with no cooperation in sight between the parties running our government. It should be about the people and the country and not about the political party. However I think with this book we are going back to 1904 and we will talk about the "good old days". Or were they? And two powerful political adversaries.
Thinking about Wisconsin as being the state that LaFollette was from - it should come as no surprise what primary candidates seem to have done better than others. Just an observation after reading your comments.
Now citations - in message one - I have placed links to the Mechanics of the board and the citation thread where help can be found in terms of how to cite books and authors not being discussed on this thread.
I do appreciate your adds and I have included the proper citations below - always best to just type normally and add the citations at the bottom. We are here to help on these and remember you do not have to cite the book and the author that we are discussing (see message 2 for assistance on citation examples)
both by
Edmund Morris
by
Theodore Roosevelt
by
Theodore Roosevelt
Hello, everyone. I am a retired history/ English teacher from central Arkansas. Teddy Roosevelt has always been one of my favorite presidents. I may have given him too much time in my history classes, but he is such a colorful person and students always seemed interested in him. I know far less about LaFollette, since he was usually just presented as a foil to TR.
in the past, progressives seemed to be truly interested in bettering people's lives - keeping power in the hands of the American people. Today's progressive movement seems to be about more government interference in our lives. More like "helicopter parenting"- it's one thing to give all citizens the right to vote, but another thing entirely to ban everything that might hurt people. I think that the government today is far too powerful and has usurped a lot of power that should be in the hands of the states. Everybody is making laws - the Supreme Court, the president, cabinet departments, bureaucracies...I want to be able to make mistakes!
Hello!I am a retired attorney and science and French teacher. I have always been passionate about history because my father is a historian and has taken us to see many places important in our history--from Civil War battlefields and monuments to countries involved in World War II. I'm looking forward to reading this book for reasons similar to what Bentley articulated. Having the author join us will be a special privilege. I'm sure we will have a lively discussion.
I'd like to thank the publisher for an advance reading copy.
Mod
Did you know the following - (Wikipedia)? I wondered how somebody so highly ranked is relatively unknown outside of the Senate and Wisconsin.
"He (La Follette) is best remembered as a proponent of progressivism and a vocal opponent of railroad trusts, bossism, World War I, and the League of Nations. In 1957, a Senate Committee selected La Follette as one of the five greatest U.S. Senators, along with Henry Clay, Daniel Webster, John C. Calhoun, and Robert A. Taft. A 1982 survey asking historians to rank the "ten greatest Senators in the nation's history" based on "accomplishments in office" and "long range impact on American history," placed La Follette first, tied with Henry Clay. Robert La Follette is one of five outstanding senators memorialized by portraits in the Senate reception room in US Capitol. One of America's top schools for public affairs, located at the University of Wisconsin-Madison bears his name".
Tomi, I am glad that you are sharing your viewpoints with us because I think it is important in discussing the material and understanding everybody's diverse perspective. That makes a discussion spirited and exciting.
When did the Supreme Court make a law or the cabinet departments - I do know that the President can issue executive orders but they are not considered laws. Maybe I misunderstood. But I hear your frustration and there are a lot of people who I believe share that frustration with you.
Mod
I am a retired attorney and science and French teacher. I have always been passionate about history because my father is a historian and has taken us to see many places important in our hist..."
Welcome Nita and how wonderful to have an historian as a Dad.
You might want to take a crack at the Preliminary Questions - they are always fun.
I. Hi I am xyz and from abc. I love history because of d and I am interested in this book and progressive politics and Theodore Roosevelt in general because of f. Or state what you are interested in if not the former.I am Peter from New York City. History is vital to understanding the world. TR is one of our most fascinating presidents.
2. Tell us what you know about Theodore Roosevelt and Robert Marion La Follette before reading this book.
I've read a lot about TR - several full length biographies plus other books that discussed him extensively. I have read a bit about Lafollette as well.
3. What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
My definition comes from Rabbi Israel Salanter.
"Most people worry about their own bellies and other people's souls when we all ought to worry about our own souls and other people's bellies"
To me, a progressive believes that the government should be concerned with people's bellies but not their souls.
4. What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary? Be civil and respectful but share your perspective if you can. This is not a thread to discuss the primaries in depth or your favorite candidate. In the Presidential Series folder - we do have threads where you can discuss that topic in depth. However, this thread is not that place.
I think Obama is doing very well.
Hi, I am Teri, one of the assisting moderators here at the HBC. I very much enjoy reading about our past presidents. Most of what I know about TDR is from The Roosevelts documentary by Ken Burns. I know little about his actual politics but know he is a man with some gumption and was the president that gave us the National Parks system. I'm interested to read this book to learn more about him and Republican politics of the time. I know nothing of La Follette.What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
I've always thought of progressive as being liberal, whether that's the Democrat side or the left side of the Republican party.
What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary? Be civil and respectful but share your perspective if you can. This is not a thread to discuss the primaries in depth or your favorite candidate. In the Presidential Series folder - we do have threads where you can discuss that topic in depth. However, this thread is not that place.
Right now I have a pretty jaded view of our current politics. I think we're in some trouble from both sides and I don't think we have any stellar options. I think people tend to feel that they have to vote for a party, and not a "candidate" and it's causing a major division in this country. I also believe that we're seeing major division in each of the two big parties.
How involved are you in the primary season this election cycle? Are there "progressive candidates" running this time? Who do you think the progressive candidates are in your viewpoint and who are the conservatives? Or are there other labels or categories that current candidates fall into?
I've watched most of the debates, both Republican and Democrat. I think that of the ones we have left, most all are trying to be progressive, or at least make a major change in their own party. Trump is trying to be progressive and so is Sanders. Cruz and Clinton seems to be more status quo for their parties.
What are the chances of "contested conventions'? How successful do you think these conventions will be?
I'm very interested to see how the conventions turn out. Especially for the Republicans. If there is going to be a contested one, that will be it, and I haven't a clue if it will be successful. My bet is that it will sink that party.
Do you think that politics and primaries in general are too acrimonious? Do you believe that these primaries and this election cycle are unique or do you think that it is more acrimonious today than in the past? Or is this more of the same or do you feel that politics has always had acrimonious cycles? Why or why not?
I think on both sides, it is more acrimonious. Lots of hate and bitterness seems to be spewing forth and the riots that we've seen kind of proves that.
What surprised you the most about Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette in Chapter One?
Just getting started. I'll know more tomorrow. ;-)
Mod
Peter welcome and I love your definition:
My definition comes from Rabbi Israel Salanter.
"Most people worry about their own bellies and other people's souls when we all ought to worry about our own souls and other people's bellies"
Thanks for sharing where your perspective will be coming from. Tomorrow we dig in.
Mod
I will be interested in having you circle back and tell us what surprised you most about either or both men in the first chapter.
Hello everyone! My name is Holly and I live in IL. I've been interested in history and politics after learning a bit about Abraham Lincoln. My goal now is to read at least one book about every present/political figure. This book sounds very interesting and I can't wait to begin reading it and discussing it with all of you!
Hi! I am Hana and I'm from the Boston area so history is all around me in my wonderful city. Reading history is how I stay above the fray. I'm an investment advisor and it's essential for me to take the long view and not get caught up in fads or trends. History helps me see the world more clearly and step away from of my own preconceptions.I started reading about Teddy Roosevelt last year, starting with the wonderful Mornings on Horseback. As an amateur naturalist I loved his childhood appreciation for collecting and I was moved by his struggle with asthma. Then I read Edmund Morris' two biographies. I've sort of fallen in love with Teddy and I'm very much in awe of his dedication and energy. My biggest disappointment with Theodore Rex was that it ended with his presidency, so I'm looking forward to our group read to fill in the story of his post-presidential life.
What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
Obviously this year's primary season makes Unreasonable Men a particularly timely read. I know next to nothing about the rise of progressivism. We seem to go through periodic waves of progressive reform and it will be interesting to compare this cycle with the progressive vision that emerged in Teddy Roosevelt's day.
Without cheating and Googling progressivism, I'll take a stab that it's in part a movement that recognizes that a civilized society has an obligation to care for it's most vulnerable. But there also seems to be an element of 'do-gooderism'--lifting up the unwashed proletariat. Progressivism, populism, socialism often seem to be conflated in people's minds and there may be considerable overlap between the movements--I'm hoping to sort this out with our group read.
Teddy Roosevelt absorbed from his father a deep sense of nobless oblige and lifting up the masses is part of what I understand his motivation to be (at this stage of my ignorance). There is this thread of elitism that seems to run through some progressive causes (Prohibition, Eugenics). With Prohibition it's clear from my reading of Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition that there were underlying racist and anti-immigrant sentiments behind the movement, as well as charitable efforts to lift the impoverished out of destitution.
What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary?
I'm usually quite cynical about politics. I'm an independent and I tend to view the parties as two wings of the same vulture. I'm underwhelmed by both the Obama administration and the current Supreme Court. And the Congress is completely dysfunctional.
How involved are you in the primary season this election cycle? Are there "progressive candidates" running this time? Who do you think the progressive candidates are in your viewpoint and who are the conservatives? Or are there other labels or categories that current candidates fall into?
More involved then I can ever remember being. It feels sort of weird to actually care what is happening since it's really been status quo for decades but I have the sense that we are at one of those societal tipping points that will make or break us for a generation or more. I'm not sure I get the real meaning of the labels well enough to pin them on the donkeys or the elephants--or the candidates in this year's contest. From an economic standpoint there is surprisingly little policy difference between Clinton, Bush II and Obama. I'd put Clinton II in that basket as well.
This year I am quite thrilled to see real shake-ups happening in both parties. In particular both the Sanders and Trump campaigns, though otherwise very different in style and substance, highlight the dangerous dependency of most politicians on big money donors, and both candidates are aligning themselves with ordinary workers who have been sidelined by the so-called knowledge economy. It seems a healthy shift to me.
What are the chances of "contested conventions'? How successful do you think these conventions will be?
I think the chances are pretty high for a contested convention for both parties. This cycle it's the establishment Republicans who seem most eager for the event, while establishment Democrats seem bound and determined to go with Clinton. Weird. Maybe even, "Sad!" When the elites are wrong for too long it's generally time to let the people speak or face "apres Moi, le deluge
Do you think that politics and primaries in general are too acrimonious? Do you believe that these primaries and this election cycle are unique or do you think that it is more acrimonious today than in the past? Or is this more of the same or do you feel that politics has always had acrimonious cycles? Why or why not?
"To everything there is a season, a time and place under the heavens." This is a normal cycle. Perhaps one that is well past due.
What surprised you the most about Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette in Chapter One? Not there yet! Tonight's fun.
by
David McCullough
and
both by
Edmund Morris
by
Michael Wolraich
by
Daniel Okrent
Hi I am Nick, currently living in DC area.I've ready many books about TR (the Edmund Morris trilogy, H.W. Brands "The Last Romantic", among others) but none about LaFollette.
Progressivism to me is a more liberal (pun intended) definition of liberty. In line with FDR's definition of freedom, the idea of using the power of government to better the lives of the downtrodden. Previously, government was thought only as an instrument which can restrict liberty (Jeffersonian view).
Politics today is largely corrupted by the role of money (not necessarily for personal gain but in order to stay in office) and gerrymandering (where members are more worried about losing a primary than losing a general election). One problem is easy to solve if only for a bit of political will. The other is much deeper and may require a constitutional reexamination of what we are willing to decide "speech" consists of.
I vote. That's about the extent of my involvement lol
On the Republican side, I think a contested convention is about a 60% likelihood. I think this will make for great television, in that it will be a trash fire. On the Democratic side, it is far less likely. The DNC is doing all it can to make sure their candidate of choice wins.
I. Hi I am Mark from Coventry, Rhode Island. My love of history goes back as far as I remember it being a subject in grammar school through graduate school, and I am fortunate to be a history teacher and to share my enthusiasm for history with the next generation of historians (i.e. my students). I am a huge advocate of both public history and digital history -- I see what we are doing here in this Goodreads discussion as a bit of both. In general, I am interested in progressive politics as my father was a New Deal Democrat -- at the dinner table every night I heard all about how FDR saved the US from the Depression and from Germany, how great Harry Truman was, etc, etc. In particular, I want to read this book because I am huge fan of Theodore Roosevelt -- for me he President #1 for many reasons, but mostly because of his humanity. Roosevelt has many admirable qualities, developing the modern presidency as the "bully pulpit," busting up trusts, establishing national forests and parks, supporting labor in the coal strikes instead of sending in the army, helping to establish the FDA, to list just a few. Losing his mother and wife on the same day and going into the wilderness to seek solace and healing, overcoming asthma as a kid...nearly makes him a heroic figure. But TR also had some qualities that were less than admirable, questionable even -- instigating a revolution in Panama, declaring "mission accomplished" in the Philippines -- among other things. So TR is an excellent example of a real human being -- a wide-ranging assessment of Roosevelt gets students to see the good, the bad, and the ugly -- the gradations of gray between the black and the white when a person is thrust into to the amount of power that Roosevelt had. TR helps students to develop historical empathy, and to see the importance that a single individual can make in history. Plus, like me he was an avid reader, and an intensely curious person who drank coffee like no tomorrow. He and I would have got on fabulously, I am sure.2. I know a fair amount about Theodore Roosevelt. Does having a life-size cutout of TR behind my desk count? La Follette I only know as a progressive midwesterner from c. 1900-1920 who is, quite honestly, outshadowed by Eugene Debs in the curriculum. Looking forward to filling in my knowlege of La Follette with this reading.
3. What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
To use science and the power of the rational mind to identify problems in our society and propose and implement fair solutions aimed at leveling the economic playing field, preserving nature and wildlife and supporting R&D of both the arts and sciences.
4. What do you think of the state of congress and government today?
Congress is more dysfunctional than usual, as the Republicans have opted to abandon compromise in favor of NO. However, it is important to remember that James Madison and the other framers wanted to design a very stable government that embraced change only in very incremental amounts, a government in which drastic change would be very hard to achieve. To that end, they were very successful. At present the Congress has managed to avoid any change whatsoever...to the point where even Madison would question whether they are doing their job at all.
Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not?
Not sure what this question means -- there are three branches of government: Congress, the President and the Executive Branch, and SCOTUS and the judiciary, plus the de facto fourth branch, the bureaucracy, plus federalism at the national level and at the state level -- so "both bodies of government" then being...what?
How do you feel about politics in general?
Aristotle describes man (humanity) as a "political animal."
Cogito ergo sum politicum
Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary?
I have mixed feelings about the current executive -- I think Obama did fairly well with what he inherited, though he dropped the ball on the stimulus -- it could have been WAY bigger and included a lot more funding for the change many thought was coming and getting the country out of the recession, perhaps in time to have prevented the loss of the House to the Republicans in 2010. He REALLY dropped the ball promoting the health care reform, allowing the Republicans to define it. That contributed to the rise of the Tea Party and to the last six years of the Republicans controlling Congress. He got health care, but 2010 ended any hope for the rest of his agenda, such as immigration reform. And I am NOT a fan of the TPP -- way more job retraining and education for displaced workers should have part of every trade deal from NAFTA on, along with student loan / student debt reform and a living wage for all US workers. In other words, Obama is not Progressive enough! But all that said, I think Obama has been the best president we've had since the mid-sixties. And I like how he has used his executive authority since the last midterm to (try to) get some of his unrealized agenda into action. History will, I believe, show him to have been one of our better presidents, probably among the top 10.
The judiciary...well, let's wait and see on that. So far the fact that Scalia is gone and Garland will likely not be seated this year (if ever), the 4 - 4 split letting lower court rulings stand has been working out OK, so far.
Hi, to all. I'm Francie, and I am an Assisting Moderator (T). My love of history was instilled in me by my father. He served in the Air Force for 33 years and taught me a lot about WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I remember family dinners where we discussed past history and current events, and sometimes politics. Because of him, I'm always trying to learn as much as I can about all events in history.As far as Theodore Roosevelt, I knew about his presidency, the Rough Riders, and of course, his influence and actions as far as the National Park Service. I had never heard of La Follette until now. I am hoping to learn a lot more about both men. Should be a very interesting read.
Progressive politics and liberal are essentially synonymous for me. I have to agree that congress is more dysfunctional today than I've ever known it to be in the past. Nobody wants to get along and they don't seem to think about the American people at all.
How do I feel about politics in general? I vote. I watch the debates and the primaries. My daughter and I discuss politics when we're together. That's about it.
I think Obama has done as well as he could with what he was up against. It's hard to accomplish anything when the Congressional majority is against everything you try to do.
I look forward to reading everyone's comments as we read this book.
Mod
We are glad to have you with us Holly - please make sure to take a stab at the preliminary questions and post your answers here - it is always fun to do that.
Thanks Bentley.....I sure will!
Mod
Hana - very eloquently put. Try your hand at the pre-discussion topics although you alluded to some of it in your post.
Mod
I've ready many books about TR (the Edmund Morris trilogy, H.W. Brands "The Last Romantic", among others) but none about LaF..."
Nick welcome I tend to agree with you that a contested Republican convention is inevitable.
You do not have to cite the book we are reading and discussing nor the author but other books we do.
Check with message one on this thread and there are two links which will help you - one to the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to do the citations and a citations thread which gives you samples.
by
H.W. Brands
all by
Edmund Morris
message 27:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 10, 2016 01:02PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Life-size cut cutout = you have to post a photo!
I think I was referring to the House of Representatives and the Senate. Of course there is the executive branch and the judiciary. Sorry if that was confusing for you.
I am not sure if I would place President Obama in the top 10 of all time - although he is thoughtful - he has however accomplished a lot but doesn't seem to know how to market that. We will see.
I am not sure that 4-4 decisions work out - it means that the court has to defer to the lower court's decision. I do hope that Garland is given a hearing and an up or down vote. I think he deserves that and Congress should do its job. Whether they vote for or against him is not as important as doing their job.
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspectives and where you are coming from prior to our beginning the discussion.
Mod
Thank you Francie for your thoughtful comments and I look forward to your help and assistance.
Mod
Progressive politics to me means not only having a more liberal outlook but wanting to improve the lives of people whether that be their access to health care, a living wage, education, protection of our environment, racial equality and human rights, etc.
As far as the Senate and House of Representatives, I think it is fair to say that they have not been functioning as intended for quite some time as evidenced by both majority leaders stating unequivocally that they will not conduct hearings (as set forth in the Constitution) for the recent nomination of Judge Garland to fill the vacancy left by the sudden death of Justice Antonin Scalia. However, so far it appears that the U.S. Supreme Court is functioning pretty well with their remaining eight members. I think that President Obama has accomplished a lot with his presidency and has guided our nation through some very turbulent times.
I have been involved in the presidential primary campaign watching both the Republican and Democratic debates and many town hall meetings, and interviews with the candidates. I think both the conventions this year will be very interesting. There is a good chance there will be a contested convention for the Republicans and maybe a little dust-up at the Democratic convention.
I think that politics has become very acrimonious but sometimes I wonder if it is not enhanced by our technology and the 24-7 news cycle. I am sure throughout history, there have been some acrimonious campaigns but the length of time it took to be disseminated allowed from some defusing of the situation. That being said, I am looking forward to reading and discussing this timely book with all of you.
by Doris Kearns Goodwin
by David McCullough
all by Edmund Morris
Bentley wrote: "Hana wrote: "Hi! I am Hana and I'm from the Boston area so history is all around me in my wonderful city. Reading history is how I stay above the fray. I'm an investment advisor and it's essential ..."Thanks, Bentley! I edited my original response.
Mod
Who knows - the 24x7 news cycle may be agitating the situation even more.
Mod
Time will tell and thank you for sharing where you are coming from in terms of your perspectives. The preliminary discussion questions will help those interacting with each other to understand everybody's frame of reference so these are always good to start out with.
My intro for this book1) I am Vincent from New York City and a "fan" of TR- I believe in progress and politics is the big non employment - non family - influence on our lives. One could say progressive means moving towards a better situation - so I am a fiscally conservation Bernie Sanders/FDR - maybe TR too - progressive.
2- I know a bit about TR having read several books about him over the years and having been fascinated by his family - including FDR - and his son in WWII etc. - Robert La Follette - not sure exactly what I know but I do believe he was a supporter of Frank Lloyd Wright from a book I am reading now.
3 - I think i unwittingly answered this in the first statement.
4. I think that our congress and our government today is out of touch with the purpose and raison d'être of their existence by my view. We are supposed to be together - but we maybe have been too long insulated from "being together" to understand how important we should be to each other. Western Europe had, to a great extent in WWII (and WWI somewhat) togetherness and equality that we have not had here for a long long time (even if we count our Civil War - that was between us) So during the bombing of WWII sitting in a shelter, in whatever country, the banker was equal to - a partner with - the street cleaner - the plumber - the baker - the teacher - the politician - the doctor - everyone's children faced the same danger - they knew they were in it together. Powers forbid we have such an experience but we have to think and feel as one. In our post WWII most (I am pretty sure - if not most many) of the elected representation by the 1950s had been in danger "together" during the war - they knew we had to succeed together etc etc. - So I am not happy with our congress - satisfied with my congressman (pretty common I think) and one of my Senators.
I will skip for now the questions on the 2016 election -
Mod
OK on that but how do you feel about the Supreme Court - are you happy about things there.
Bentley wrote: "Hana thank you for your update - I don't place HC in the same bucket as the others but we will see. I am not sure how realistic either Sanders or Trump is but I do hope that things are not played o..."just a comment about "smoke filled rooms" in that with some states permitting anyone to vote in any primary is it truly the Republicans or Democrats whose votes decide their primaries? Do the party's not have a right and or need to protect their integrity from non-committed voters
I agree with Bentley in States where the voters had to be registered in that party at least 90 days before the primary but otherwise I don't want my philosophical (is that too strong a word) opponents (that too might be too strong) to be able to influence who my candidate is.
And in 2008 if John Edwards were really leading in delegates should not the Democratic party have had an option to choose someone else after the revelations about him?
Parties are not "public" entities but are private organizations I do believe
Bentley wrote: "Welcome Vincent - very interesting about the Frank Lloyd Wright connection. OK on that but how do you feel about the Supreme Court - are you happy about things there."
Supreme Court - good question Bentley
From Dred Scott to Citizen's United I think that political or personal political views or beliefs or values of the Justices can undermine the disciplined adherence to the Constitution and law precedents.
That being said they are confirmed by the Senate which is the tool chosen by the founding fathers.
Those I have heard speak on occasions have always been intelligent and logical on their subjects (mostly at the New York Historical Society - normally at least one there every year).
What I think the founding fathers did not foresee is the relatively large number of low population states each getting two Senators
That Montana, Delaware, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, and Vermont, and Wyoming with under 1,000,000 people all get two senators is one thing for the founding states and another for the newer ones.
That about 51 million of about 320 million hold half of the votes in the Senate is a bi incongruous to me.
Also the court did not used to be seen as the end - many left to go to other public service after some years on the Court.
I think that if we were to appoint judges to work from the point of view of the Constitution and the law without any litmus tests it should be better - but will have to finish more study and I will not have time for that for about a year I think - if I get to it.
message 37:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 10, 2016 05:20PM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Since there is secrecy at the ballot box - and every registered voter has the right to vote - I would assume that things have played out the same historically.
I hear what you are saying but just independents I do not believe are going to give any candidate the preponderance of the primary votes they need or catapult them to the lead in a primary.
A lot of states force you to be registered in that party for a period of 90 days at least so it is a moot point there. I think the people's votes should speak for themselves and the folks pulling the puppet strings in the back room should abide by that. Having said that - if you are going into one of these conventions and you have not closed the deal - anything can happen but you hope that they would take into account who had the most votes before they start brokering the deals.
This might come close to the 1976 Republican National Convention where Ford had not locked up all of the votes needed before the convention although Cruz is no Reagan and Trump is no Ford. So who knows.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Re...
Mod
I think many are in the same boat as far as La Follette goes unless you are from Wisconsin (smile).
Hello folks. My name is Mary and I moved to the Charleston area of South Carolina a few years ago after living many years in Madison, WI. History simply fascinates me - our species never fails to astonish.I don't know much about Teddy Roosevelt. I heard a lot about Fighting Bob La Follette back in Madison during the protests over Gov. Walker's initiatives to weaken government unions, so now I can find out if they knew what they were talking about.
To me, progressive politics should be about social change, and the means for getting there. Without going into details, I've been rather cynical about politicians of all stripes.
And yet, I'm pretty pleased at this year's turn of events. I consider myself an independent, since both parties nauseate me, and I gave up on an electorate that seems to care more about whatever some celebrity is doing rather than how the government and big business are manipulating political and financial systems to the advantage of just a few. But now I feel at least some of the country is engaged in a real discussion about what direction we should take, and mostly doing it without throwing many punches. I am feeling more hopeful, as if we are on the brink of another wave of positive change. I hope so.
Although I'm an independent, I felt the Bern this year, and I knocked on doors for Sanders in South Carolina. That was strange on a number of different levels, but it left the Republicans in my family speechless for once, so was worth it :) I'm not even that convinced about the Sanders platform but, like Fighting Bob, believe that taking down the ruling oligarchy will make our country a better place.
UPDATE:
What do you think of the state of congress and government today? What are the chances of "contested conventions'? Do you think that politics and primaries in general are too acrimonious?What surprised you the most about Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette in Chapter One?
I don't think much of Congress. As others have noted, Congress is not functioning well. I'm frustrated that the Senate Republicans are not scheduling a vote on the Supreme Court nominee.
I'm also disillusioned by the Obama administration. The president didn't turn out to be transformational and just kept the status quo going, which isn't working. He has few of the qualities I associate with leadership: a vision, relationship-building skills, the ability to influence, and the ability to guide execution.
As far as acrimonious, I can't believe politics are more acrimonious than right before the Civil War. Still, because there is such an impasse in Congress because of acrimony between the parties, there's clearly too much. On the other hand, I am not in favor of too much consensus in politics - I feel this means people are being bullied into it, and competition can be healthy.
Also as others have noted, I feel there is a very good chance of contested conventions this year for both parties. I would like to witness that.
What surprised me most about Teddy Roosevelt in Chapter 1 was his pragmatism, and that many of his initiatives fell short. I thought he was more of a forceful character, and less of a party insider.
Mod
Hi, my name is Rachel. I am from Springfield OH. I am currently employed and wanting to get back to school. I plan on getting my Bachelors degree in history. I want to become an archivist. I love history, and I am reading addict. I am becoming more interested in Presidential history. FDR is one of my favorite Presidents, and I love Eleanor Roosevelt. I never bothered to study more on TR. It was not until I saw the PBS special on the Roosevelt's that I actually started to learn more on TR. So I jumped at the chance to do this read along. 2. Tell us what you know about Theodore Roosevelt and Robert Marion La Follette before reading this book.
I know bits and pieces on TR. I know more about his family and bits pieces of his childhood. But I am not well versed in his presidential history, or his politics. I never heard of La Follette.
3. What does progressive politics mean to you? Prior to reading this book?
For me, I guess, I think its the ideas that were built on by previous generations like FDR and Martin Luther King. It takes money out of big Government and gives power back to the working class. I think its more fair, instead of having the 1% have all the power, just because they are wealthy.
4. What do you think of the state of congress and government today? Are you pleased with the performance of both bodies of government? Why or why not? How do you feel about politics in general? Are you pleased with the executive branch and the judiciary?
I like politics in general, I think being a lover of history, I am drawn to it. My grandmother was very active in politics, and my mother always tell me she thinks that I got my love of history and politics from her. I am democratic/progressive in my views. I am finding that I am not liking the two party system at all. I don't like the Republican party, and the democratic party is no better. I think there is a power play going on between both parties, and the American people are suffering and Government is suffering. Plus I think there is two much money floating around in Government.
5. How involved are you in the primary season this election cycle? Are there "progressive candidates" running this time? Who do you think the progressive candidates are in your viewpoint and who are the conservatives? Or are there other labels or categories that current candidates fall into?
I am following the primaries this season. OH, just had their primaries several weeks back. which I voted in. Well I am finding that people you think are democrats are not so in their policies. I am following the democratic race more then I am the Republican. so I can't really comment on that. I feel that Bernie Sanders is definitely a progressive.
What are the chances of "contested conventions'? How successful do you think these conventions will be?
I think that the chances are going to be pretty high, especially on the Republican side.
Do you think that politics and primaries in general, are too acrimonious? Do you believe that these primaries and this election cycle are unique or do you think that it is more acrimonious today than in the past? Or is this more of the same or do you feel that politics has always had acrimonious cycles? Why or why not?
I think for me this has been the worse election. I think that the election back in 08 was bad, but not as bad as this. The Republican side its more then obvious. I don't think that the dem side has been as bad as Republican. I agree that the media does stir up a lot of trouble. As much as I can't stand mainstream media- I think that certain candidate need to be more responsible in how they use their platform.
What surprised you the most about Theodore Roosevelt and La Follette in Chapter One?
I haven't started the book yet, I thought we began tomorrow. I will get back to this question once I read chapter one :)
Mod
I look forward to reading your posts as we begin this discussion.
I jumped right in and introduced myself and then didn't answer the questions. You know me, Bentley, hurry,hurry, hurry. Let me back up and answer some of them.Like most people here, I have a moderate knowledge of TR having read some excellent books about his life and political career. I knew of "Fighting Bob" LaFollette but not much. I think he was much more influential that I realized.
I think progressive politics have changed somewhat over the years but the basic tenets are the same......to use an overused term, "for the greater good".......recognize that all people should be represented, not just the wealthy.
I think the government is, frankly, a mess. We obviously know more about waste and in-fighting than previous generations due to the media (which also has its biases). I am extremely concerned that the US debt is spinning out of control and I can't see how we can recover from it. And we just keep spending!! And then there is terrorism. It is all very ominous for our future.
The primaries are a circus, especially on the Republican side. No one is addressing the issues because they are much too busy trashing each other like a bunch of spoiled children. I am having trouble finding any answers that make much sense from any of the candidates....."When I am elected I will make the US a better country" seems to be the favorite phrase. Tell me how you are going to do that and I might take you seriously. I have a huge trust issue with politicians at this point.
I see the Republicans having a contested convention since the party leadership absolutely does not want Trump. If he doesn't bring the 1,237 votes to the convention, he is toast......and even if he does, the rules can override that and someone else can pop out of the woodwork. The RNC allows for ex post facto rule making at the convention so nothing would surprise me. Reminds me of Warren Harding coming away with the nomination all those many years ago.....the infamous "smoke filled room".
Acrimonious? That word will work since we can't say anything obscene here. In the past, candidates did poke and pick at each other but this has got to be as bad as it gets. I think that the US is embarrassing itself in front of the whole world with some of the shenanigans in which the candidates are engaging. And it will probably only get worse as we move closer to the conventions.
Bentley wrote: "Hello Christopher - thank you for taking a stab at the preliminary questions.You were fine with how you answered the questions and you did not cross the line. We welcome all sides of the aisle. I..."
Thanks Bentley. I will endeavor to improve my citations in the future. As way of both practice and recommendation, I would like to cite the Library of America's printing of Theodore Roosevelt's Rough Riders and Autobiography, which is included in one volume. Not only is the Library of America a great, non-profit publishing company dedicated to preserving the works of great American letters and literature, but I also think people would appreciate having these two books in one volume rather than in two separate ones. Below is my attempt to follow your guidelines in citations.
Theodore Roosevelt: The Rough Riders and an Autobiography by
Theodore Roosevelt
Bentley, what is the line you mentioned?
Some more thoughts on my politicsI got interrupted while answering:
My own politics are, on economic issues, at the left end of the Democratic party and on social issues, even farther to the left than that.
I think our political system has some problems, but the problem is not that we aren't getting competent candidates - except for Trump, they are qualified in the sense of education and experience. E.g. I disagree with Ted Cruz on just about every issue but I will admit he is smart and experienced. I am pretty sure that every representative and senator is a college grad and most are law school grads.
I think the Republicans are facing a major crisis, similar to what the Democrats went through in the 1960s when they threw out the Dixiecrat
The presidency - again, we should separate competence from agreement. George HW Bush was competent; his son was not. Obama is competent.
In terms of this season - I am probably going to vote for Sanders in the NY primary in a couple weeks. I will definitely vote for the Democrat in the Fall. I have also been following some senate races. I follow politics pretty closely. I often volunteer in campaigns.
message 47:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 11, 2016 04:57AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Like most people here, I have a mode..."
Jill thank you for circling back - the preliminary questions are important because I think that the discussions will encroach upon what you want your government to do for you and when you want your government to not be involved. Different people are going to have different opinions when talking about TR's policies and Lafollettfe's I think and it is important to know where everybody is coming from and what their perspective happens to be. There is aways a foundation it appears as to how one feels about any candidate or any governmental law or court decision. TR and LaFollette were adversarial.
message 48:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 11, 2016 05:01AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Hana - I am not sure I understand. Let me look at my response to you. It might be that I placed a link on the thread for those folks who really want to discuss primaries and individual candidates that are running this year. That is not what we are discussing here and I provided a link to that thread. Our main focus will be Theodore Roosevelt, LaFollette. Progressive Politics, and the book Unreasonable Men. I know the policy decisions by these two men will be discussed and the role of government for the country and in our lives.
message 49:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Apr 12, 2016 09:41AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
You always have to add the book cover first, then the author's photo if available and then the author's link which is the author's name in linkable text. If there is no author's photo - you add (no photo) at the end. If you find and add the book cover image - you do not have to also add the book title also - just the book cover is what we are looking for - but in some instances it is missing; but it is not missing for your book.
You added the author's photo and author's link successfully.
What we do after clicking on preview to check that we have added all of the parts successfully which only takes a second - is to go back into the text box and add the word by between the html for the book cover and the html for the author's photo leaving one blank space before and after the word by.
Here is the link to the Mechanics of the Board thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
And here is a link to the citations samples thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
by
Theodore RooseveltFortunately when we are discussing a book and its author on a spotlighted discussion we do not have to cite the book and the author we are discussing or any personage mentioned in the book.
We only have to cite other books by other authors that you mention in your posts.
I am glad you did the citation.
Mod
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Belle La Follette: Progressive Era Reformer (other topics)Unreasonable Men: Theodore Roosevelt and the Republican Rebels Who Created Progressive Politics (other topics)
John Adams (other topics)
His Excellency: George Washington (other topics)
The Octopus: A Story of California (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Nancy C. Unger (other topics)Joseph J. Ellis (other topics)
David McCullough (other topics)
Frank Norris (other topics)
Fareed Zakaria (other topics)
More...
For the week of April 11th - April 17th, we are reading the Preface and Chapter One of Unreasonable Men: Theodore Roosevelt and the Republican Rebels who Created Progressive Politics by Michael Wolraich.
The first week's reading assignment is:
Week One - April 11th - April 17th
Preface and Chapter One - The Bolt - (pages 1 - 30)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on April 11th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up April 11th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be moderating this discussion and Assisting Moderators Teri, Jill, Bryan, Francie and Samanta will be backups.
The author Michael Wolraich will also be actively participating in the moderation with Bentley. We welcome him to the discussion.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Also the citation thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. We will be adding to this thread as we read along.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Unreasonable Men - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...