Action Heroine Fans discussion

For authors published by 'mainstream" Big Publishing, the library market has traditionally been an important component of book distribution. Of course, libraries buy books; they also lend and display them, bringing them to the attention of readers who may go on to advertise them by word of mouth (or buy their own copies). And once even a few libraries (or sometimes even one of them) have a copy of a particular book, it becomes possible for readers served even by very far-away libraries to request it through interlibrary loan.

Self-publishing and small-press authors, though, are at a distinct disadvantage in reaching this market. Small presses, and the printing services that cater to self-publishing, typically don't offer the library discounts that today's cash-strapped libraries have come to rely on when they buy books. Moreover, it's very hard for authors of this sort to get reviews in the traditional, credentialed reviewing media that library book selectors have come to trust and respect. And without those reviews, they typically won't spend money on an unfamiliar, unknown author. So, what's an indie or small-press author to do?

One strategy is to promote your book through social media sites like Goodreads (as most of us are doing anyway!) in the hope of reaching any of the librarians who are savvy to, and active on, sites like this, and open to taking user reviews seriously. I've selected a few books for the Bluefield College library myself on this basis --though not many, since as a college library, we can't spare the money to buy much contemporary fiction. Public librarians, though, are much more apt to be interested in purchasing fiction. You can also encourage readers who like your book to recommend it to their local librarians, especially if they have good rapport with them to start with.

Another strategy, though, is targeted book donations. This will cost money, because libraries are typically looking for donated paper books, not e-books. You also want to be fairly sure the library will accept your donation, and not trash it because they don't trust indie authors or don't trust the imprint. Your local libraries, though, are usually a very good bet for getting your book onto the shelves. Public libraries typically like to collect the work of local authors; and they may even be interested in hosting you for an event.

The Bluefield College library has a Christian Fiction section (for ECPA/CBA-type fiction, and books with similar style), as well as sections for Leisure Reading, Mystery, and Science Fiction, and an active YA and children's collection. For all but the latter, we rely almost entirely on donations to build the collection; and I have no prejudice against indie and small press books as such. If you think you might be interested in reaching more readers by getting your book onto our library shelves, personal message me, and we can explore the possibility.

Note: As a Southern Baptist college library, although we don't hold our fiction to strict ECPA/CBA standards, we don't shelve erotica, porn, or books with X-rated violence, extreme amounts of bad language, etc. Authors considering book donations should keep this in mind.

Werner: Picking 3 well known names, would Hunger Games, Weber's Honor Harrington books, or Harry Potter make it to the college's shelves?

How about Nix's Sabriel, which I'm looking at as I write?

*cough* Werner can have mine, but they aren't exactly suitable. *cough*

Jon, good question; the best way to test parameters is through examples. Yes, all three of your first examples would (and have). We have all the books of the Hunger Games and Harry Potter series in the Juvenile collection, and the first Honor Harrington book in the SF collection. (I donated that one myself.)

I've never read any of Garth Nix's work, and we don't have any of it in the collection currently. But I'm assuming it would be within the scope of our collection policy --we include much more than we exclude. Our scope is a little narrower than a public library's would be, though, since we're a college library mostly focused on supporting the curriculum, and the educational goals of the college. E. G., if I was still a public librarian (I haven't been for over 20 years, though) I'd have accepted your generous offer!

Werner, is donation of books in electronic / digital format a coming thing in public libraries? That is, is my ability to donate E.G.'s book (current not in paper, right E.G.?) likely to get closer to universal in the next few years?

Jon wrote: "Werner, is donation of books in electronic / digital format a coming thing in public libraries? That is, is my ability to donate E.G.'s book (current not in paper, right E.G.?) likely to get closer..."

All my novels are available in quality paperback. The issue with my books isn't format - it's content. Not a lot of college libraries are lining up for the explicit sex.

Jon, I'm going to put your question to a public librarian I know, and get back to you with an answer after I hear from her. (I've been out of the public library context for 24 years, so I really don't know much about current trends there.)

I just heard from my public librarian friend in answer to Jon's question. Here's what she says:

"I’ve found several answers that explain why people cannot donate e-books to a library. It has to do with downloading an ebook being a license agreement between the purchaser and the publisher. Here are some of the answers more in depth. But, in addition, if all of this was not true and people could donate ebooks, I don’t know how a library would establish its own platform through which the ebooks could be checked out, returned, searched, etc. Most public libraries use Overdrive which provides the platform. Or with Ebsco ebooks, they provide the platform, etc.

Hope this helps -- Lynne

From the ALA website:

Ebooks cannot be donated because their use is governed by contract rather than the copyright law. Under the copyright law, there are exceptions that allow a user to exercise a right of copyright under certain circumstances. One of the exclusive rights of copyright is the “right to distribute.” But first sale says that once a person lawfully acquires a work that person has the right to distribute that particular copy anyway that he wants. So libraries can lend the books that they purchase, and you can donate books to the library.

With ebooks, the contract defines what you can or cannot do with a work. In general, contracts for ebooks you acquire – from iBooks, for example –have a non-negotiable license linked to the work. This is when you click on an “I agree to these terms” button. You are bound by the contract. If you read the contract, generally you will see terms that restrict what you can do. “Non-commercial personal use only” is the kind of language that prevents you from donating. If you violate the contract terms, you violate the license agreement, not copyright law.

From Ebooks Beta website:

My local library uses overdrive, for ebook loans. Can I donate an ebook I already own to them, or can I purchase an ebook specifically for my library?


No. If your library uses overdrive you can not give them ebooks to be loaned via Overdrive. According to the Overdrive FAQ only titles purchased from overdrive are available for library loans.

Can I add the titles I purchased from another vendor to my OverDrive collection?

Only titles purchased from OverDrive are licensed to be included in your OverDrive collection. Overdrive is a subscription based service.
Each library creates it's own custom digital collection, which is managed by the library staff. Overdrive does not offer any services directly to library patrons so purchasing on behalf of the library is not an option.
You would need to contact your local library, you may be able to make a direct monetary donation in combination with a request to include a title in your library's collection.

From Amazon:
Does Kindle offer a way to donate our e-books to our local library? If not it would be a great service to add.
You can't donate the books you have purchased: that would violate your Terms of Service with Amazon.
When you are "buying" a book for your Kindle, you are actually purchasing a license for your account to access the digital material.

Think of it a bit like your driver's license, it belongs to you to use, but you cannot transfer your license to someone else to use. Perhaps not the best analogy, but hopefully you can understand the concept.
BTW - it's not just the Kindle - but any digital media that has DRM locking it to a specific user, device, reader, application, etc....
Even without DRM, you can't legally transfer the ebook to someone else."

Sorry to have to share disappointing information, Jon!

Wow, thanks for all the information Werner.

RANT ahead.

I used to be (in the 80s) on the board of a friends of the library. One of our revenue streams was the annual book sale, composed mostly of books donated to the library they didn't need. Both such friends groups will have less books and money, and public libraries will have less current books.

I wonder if there is a market for a local book club that buys books that members want to read, then lets every who [wants? contributes for that book? votes? other] read the book, and then donates it to a local library. Is it totally too late to stop a certain company (which owns this site) from ruining public libraries as it has done with independent book sellers?

I do not - that's DO NOT - go to WalMart even though the prices are often the lowest I'm told. EVER. Is there anyway other than returning to paying full prices for purchased paper books to change the balance of power?

Yes, I know these are old questions for book lovers. The train may have left the station.

Idea: What is the morality / economics / justice of only buying used books for any ebook that is also available for purchase on paper? In other words, don't buy the ebook even if cheaper, don't buy the new book.

Jon, lots of good, interesting points in your post! I have a similar perspective in some ways, even though I'm coming from a slightly different place. Personally, I boycott both Wal-Mart and, as much as possible, Amazon (I've said their name on here before, and they haven't had me kicked off Goodreads yet --someday they may, but I don't plan to shut up in the meantime!), and for the same basic reasons in both cases. I'm not sympathetic to bully-on-the-block monopolies in any context.

That said, I don't think Amazon's (and other e-book sellers') anti-e-book donation position has reduced donations of new books to public libraries much, because from what I observed as a public library director in the late 80s/early 90s (and looking over public library free racks and book sales since then), not many new books ever were donated. Most donors are getting rid of older books they don't want, either because they're moving and downsizing or because they inherited an unwanted book collection. Public (and college) libraries typically buy their new paper books, but rarely pay full price; publishers and book jobbers normally give them a significant library discount. So we're not looking at a situation, in the immediate future, where libraries are going to be more constrained in their acquisitions of either print or e-books (they typically get discounted packaged deals on those, too). It's actually not uncommon for libraries nowadays to buy print books from Amazon, so as to benefit from the cheap prices, too (though that wouldn't be my practice, if I handled acquisitions!).

I'm not sure there would be a market for your "local book club" idea, if only because it seems to introduce a layer of unnecessary complexity into the process. If individuals buy books they want to donate and give them directly to the library (maybe reading them first), the library gets the books. One could argue that 50 people, each paying a pittance toward the purchase of 50 books cumbersomely selected by some kind of group process, would get the library more books faster than 50 people each donating a single book they picked themselves; but I'm not sure the math would bear that out. (And I'm not sure we could find 50 people in most communities who'd be generous enough to donate.)

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the desire to save money (who isn't?); but I also know that entrepreneurs and workers who make and sell the goods we want have a right to make a living --preferably a decent living, though not wallowing in luxury. And I believe that paper books and locally-owned bookstores provide social utility that e-books and online mega-corporations do not. So I'm willing to pay a bit extra to support them. For myself, I choose not to buy e-books, even if that's the only format in which a given book is available --I don't hate e-books, and I'm glad they exist for some people where they fill a need, but I have limited money, and I choose to spend it where it makes the cultural impact that I want. Yes, I'm a buyer of used books when I get a chance to be (and I've been a member of BookMooch for years.) But for the last several years, I've taken part in an annual challenge to buy at least two brand-new paper books from a brick-and-mortar store (a home-owned one, in my case), and sometimes I buy more. I buy in paperback, and usually not books that are newly-published; and I support mostly small presses or indie authors; but yes, I do pay list price. IMO, it's worth it for supporting a healthy book trade that's not monopoly controlled.

These are just my thoughts on the subject; others no doubt have other perspectives, and we'll be glad to hear them!

It's easy to blame Amazon or Walmart or whomever for the decline in book donations to libraries. However, nobody's preventing someone from donating a hardcopy book s/he's bought from any of these outlets. In that the potential donor can get a discount on the price from Zon/Walmart/Costco/whatever, it could make donation easier -- it's not as hard to give away a book you bought for $8-10 as it is to get rid of one you spent $16-18 or $25-30 on.

I don't see any conspiracy here. I see a confluence of trends that have started mauling the traditional library model, while at the same time, externally imposed budget cuts and internal inertia have left libraries ill-equipped to cope.

I don't think that the need for access to books by people who cannot afford to obtain them in the now traditional ways [eg B&N, Sam's Club, Amazon or ebooks] is any less now than at any other time in the history of popular books. There is absolutely a role for libraries providing free access.

How they do it is, as you say, not within their current equipment and processes. A new paradigm is needed.

Jon wrote: "I don't think that the need for access to books by people who cannot afford to obtain them in the now traditional ways [eg B&N, Sam's Club, Amazon or ebooks] is any less now than at any other time ..."

The concept that libraries exist to provide access to books for the poor is probably pretty widespread nowadays. That's certainly an important benefit of libraries, but not their central reason for existing. Rather, they exist to enable a community of people who think reading is important to share books and resources for mutual reading benefit. These may be communities of scholars (which create college libraries --and libraries may be attached to K-12 schools as well), or groups of general readers, who formed the first subscription libraries back in the 1700s.

Lance mentioned "externally imposed budget cuts." Ironically, government ownership/control of libraries was "sold" to the reading public, in the late 1800s, as a funding gift; in return for state control, libraries were to get a boundless stream of tax money, with no strings attached, that would solve all their money problems and purchase biblio-Utopia. It would be safe to say, by 2016, that the promise has not been borne out, precisely because the controlling interests of government are not, ultimately, "people who think reading is important." So yes, public libraries suffer from funding problems, exacerbated by an economy sliding toward collapse. College libraries suffer the same "externally imposed budget cuts," as academia increasingly degenerates from an educational enterprise into a money-making one concerned only with the annual bottom line and institutional survival to keep salaries flowing. The funding problems would be real, though, even if funding for libraries was in the hands of committed readers who cared about them. Books cost money; librarians have to be fed, housed, and clothed; and buildings and utilities aren't free. These challenges are inherent in the existence of libraries, though they're more obvious in times of widespread economic scarcity.

From what I've experienced, observed, and read, though, libraries are continuing to meet this challenge, (despite the added challenge of increasing aliteracy and functional illiteracy) and continuing to operate and serve readers. (I don't have statistics in front of me at the moment; but I'll try to look them up.) Libraries continue to provide their public with a wide range of paper books and e-books (and, if anything, interlibrary loan has burgeoned, not declined, with the computer revolution). The failure of libraries to adequately provide access to good-quality small-press and self-published books isn't caused by low funding, nor by library's "current equipment and processes," but by widespread personal and institutional prejudices in the library profession.

Werner wrote: "The failure of libraries to adequately provide access to good-quality small-press and self-published books isn't caused by low funding, nor by library's "current equipment and processes," but by widespread personal and institutional prejudices in the library profession."

Definitely so. It's nearly impossible to sell a book to a library if it isn't carried by Baker & Taylor, and B&T likes to pretend indies don't exist. Many (most?) librarians won't even look at a book unless it's been blessed by Library Journal or one of a very small number of other legacy review pubs, nearly all of which also ignore indies. (Midwest Book Review is an exception, but I've found it doesn't have the same currency among the library systems I've approached.)

I'd love to cut a deal directly with Orange County Public Libraries (my local system) to carry both my trade paperbacks and e-books. I'd make them a hell of an offer. However, they don't do that sort of thing. Except for one district in San Antonio, I'm not aware of any other library system in the country that could do that even if it was inclined to.

I remember librarians having to be dragged kicking and screaming into offering e-books. How long will they fight against including indies in their collections?

Lance, what will including indie books in a few public libraries help? I'm guessing that such a book will have some circulation during the period when it is on display front and center as a "new release." Then it will fade from sight on the shelves or in the e-books for loan card catalog.

If those few readers (who have read the book already, so they won't buy it) spread word of mouth, won't most of their friends check the book out of the library rather than buy it? Unless the book is really good, so readers actually remember the name of the author and keep track of her, will those readers demand that their library acquire the next books from that author?

Lance, most public libraries (at least, most of those in small towns) like to acquire books by local authors, even indies. I was actually surprised that Orange County P. L. wouldn't --although possibly in a very urban area with a huge population, the sheer volume of local indie authors might be a countervailing consideration. :-(

To backtrack (slightly) from my comment about prejudice against indies as the reason libraries don't buy their books: the prejudice is real, and widespread, but it's not the only factor. As I noted in my first comment above, when I started this thread, libraries are used to getting books at discounted prices. Small presses and indie authors who won't, or feel that they can't, offer library discounts are bound to be at a competitive disadvantage compared to big publishers who do. (True, Amazon offers small press and indie books at a discount --but that's sort of like dealing with the devil.) The power of advertising also plays a role; public librarians know that patrons will ask for heavily-hyped books, so they'll buy those first, and only books from Big Publishing get that hype.

Reviews are also an issue. In fairness to library book selectors, most of them do want to spend their funds for good books that the patrons will actually enjoy reading; not for junk --and some indie books are the latter, and I've read examples to prove it. Others include some of the best books I've ever read! But with no kind of established vetting, librarians are hard pressed to tell which are which. For books and authors we're not familiar with, we have to depend a lot on reviews for guidance. So some of the problem is the prejudice of standard reviewing periodicals who don't review indie offerings, not that of the librarians per se. Amazon and Goodreads are the best sources for reviews of indie works; but many library selectors aren't yet in the habit of consulting them; and there's some need for caution with unvetted reviewers, as well. (Glowing reviews can't be trusted if they may come from sock puppets, the author's spouse, or somebody paid to praise the book --and I know of, and have read, examples there, too.) I think more inclusion of indie books in libraries will come, but it will probably come more slowly than we'd like.

Jon, your very negative view of the role of libraries in creating demand for particular books was once (in the late 1800s and early 1900s), a very common one among authors, who viewed libraries as a bane for book sales. However, the fact that books continue to sell, even though public libraries are in virtually every community and most people know that they're there, tends to belie that view. Readers may choose to pay to own a book for a number of reasons, even if they could, with some inconvenience, borrow it for a limited time for free. They're perhaps more likely to buy a book they've read and liked, or that they know a trusted friend has liked, than one they know nothing about. That's also the reason behind the practice of authors giving away sample copies of their books to readers, in the hope of building favorable buzz or getting some good reviews on social media. Personally, I'd rather sell one book to a library and have it be read by ten people for free than I would give one away for free to ten readers (I'd at least have one sale out of the deal!) And even if I gave it to the library as a donation, that one freebie would at least stand a chance of being read by multiple people; whereas if I gave it to an individual, it might simply sit on the shelf or the Kindle for the rest of the person's life. (It's not true that books only circulate from the "new books" displays; I know from experience and observation that books DO circulate from the regular shelves, too. That's why we continue to shelve them.)

These are just the thoughts of one reader/librarian/small-press-author on the subject. I don't have all the facts or all the answers (and I'm not a public librarian, so where fiction is concerned, I don't even work in the primary library marketplace for it). But I think it's a worthwhile subject to discuss, and I'm appreciating what I'm learning from others' insights and experiences!

Jon wrote: "Lance, what will including indie books in a few public libraries help? I'm guessing that such a book will have some circulation during the period when it is on display front and center as a "new release." Then it will fade from sight on the shelves or in the e-books for loan card catalog.

For me, it's an easily-targeted market that can help drive my discoverability. The ALA says there are 9082 public library administrative units in the U.S., which includes both library systems and standalone (unaffiliated) libraries. It's easy to find exactly where they are and who to talk to about purchases (unlike when we try to sell to the rest of the book market). If I could sell my books in whatever form to just 10% of those library admin units, it would be a significant boost to my sales. And, as Werner mentioned, having a book in a library's collection allows multiple people to read it. There are less effective strategies to building readership, including what I'm doing now, along with most other indies -- trying to reach individual readers through ads and so on.

What do libraries get out of it? More diversity of voices and viewpoints, for one. For another, opening the doors to indies lets librarians loosen the leash that ties them to the legacy publishers, their often-bloated price lists, and their monopoly distribution systems.

Werner mentioned there's a lot of dreck being churned out by indies, which is true; it's also true there's a good deal of dreck being turned out by the legacy publishers. The difference is that the legacy publishers have full access to sell their dreck to libraries, while indies have very little access to sell them even their very best stuff.

Werner: I did manage to get my first book, Doha 12 , placed in OCPL and a few other libraries. It was hard, but I managed. Then someone at OCPL changed the rules before my second book came out (basically, B&T only now) and I couldn't get them to even look at it, even though much of it is set in Orange County. Fullerton Public Library didn't carry indies until last year's Local Author event, in which I pointed out that two of the four authors on the panel were indies and the library wouldn't buy our books. They now do. One step forward, one step back.

Lance, I'm glad to hear about every bit of progress, and glad you've had as much success as you have getting Doha 12 into libraries. (I've read it, and if I were a public library selector who was actually free to spend much money on contemporary fiction, I'd buy it for the library shelves in a heartbeat!) Many indie and small-press authors, of course, aren't even that fortunate. My novel is in a few libraries, too, but mostly because, being a librarian myself, I had contacts I could leverage to get a hearing. (And my original publisher did give a library discount, though they went out of business back in 2008.)

Here in Bluefield, I belong to a local librarians fellowship, which meets every summer for workshops and discussion. Our conversation on this thread has given me the topic I was looking for to do a presentation on: the role of independent and small press authors in library collections, and how to identify quality work from these sources! (One of our members is a public library director, so I might be able to do some good.)

Super interesting thread, Werner. I've been down with the flu for a week and just catching up. I'll be back when I've had time to digest.

Glad you're feeling better now, E.G.!

I second E.G.'s praise, Werner (and Lance) and I'll ponder what you've said about the value of placing books in public libraries.

Thanks, Jon (and E.G.)!

Wow. So much to digest.

So far -

On indies (like me) in libraries. My novels are published in quality paperback (6x9) and sold through Amazon at mass-paperback prices - 7.99 to 12.99. That is the least amount that Amazon's Print on Demand (POD) service allows me to price without my having to pay for the privilege.

Locally, I will happily donate copies to the public library. As Lance posted it's an easily-targeted market that can help drive my discoverability. More importantly to me, public libraries have always been sources of discovery and comfort. I want to share that with others.

*note to Werner* I'm one of those 'donate to get rid of' types. That said, before my life got nuts, it was a once a quarter thing. I still remember the librarian's thrilled expression when I donated hardcover/quality paperback copies of the Twilight series as the movies were coming out.

E.G., I can imagine that librarian's face, and understand the thrill! (We had to buy three out of the four books in that series; only one was donated, but we were glad to get it!)

In analyzing the motives of people who donate books to libraries, I didn't mean any disparagement of those who do so to get rid of books they don't want or can't house any more --I've been among their number at times, when we had to move and fit all our worldly goods into a limited space. Donating to a public library is a great way of sharing books with others, whether they're older books or newer ones (both kinds can be treasures!); and if I can't keep a book, I like to at least know that I'm giving it away to a good home!

I don't keep fiction once I've read it (there's just no room), so when I'm done, it goes off to the library or the used-book store. My nonfiction tends to be research that I consult on an ongoing basis.

I'm a bit chary about donating the books I write to libraries. This is, after all, a business for me (albeit a nonprofit one, though not by design) and I already give away a fair number of review copies. I might drop a copy on the local standalone library because it doesn't have much of an acquisitions budget and it's local. OCPL and the L.A. County or San Diego systems can bloody well afford it, and I don't see them asking Sue Grafton or Daniel Silva to donate their books.

Lance, I hear you! I've actually only donated two copies of my own novel to libraries, both of them local and cash-strapped --and one of those copies was to replace the one they'd bought, which had been stolen. (The one I donated to the BC library got stolen as well; but since we have a policy of trying to acquire books written by BC faculty and staff, I felt justified in ordering a replacement in my capacity as book selector.) Of course, that's partly because my publisher gave me very few author's copies to hand out! (Any donations and freebies over and above those that I've given out, I've had to pay for --and many if not all small-press authors (and ALL of the indies!) can relate to that situation. :-) )

Whether it's a constructive marketing move for a writer to donate a book to a library (especially one that's not local) is a judgment call only he/she can make individually, which is why I just put an open-ended invitation out in this thread to the writing community in general (rather than asking individual authors). In the case of the BC library (unlike the large metropolitan ones you mentioned, Lance), I'm not usually given a green light to spend money for contemporary fiction, barring some special circumstance/excuse; so I felt less embarrassment about raising the possibility. (If I had a serious budget for fiction, I wouldn't have made even a general invitation --though I'd still accept donations that were offered!)

On donating e-books -

Digital piracy is a huge problem for all forms of digital entertainment. So far, the technology to convey 'ownership of a single copy' is limited. The e-book licensing is based in US precedent law around music and film. It's less than optimal.

As an indie (self published) author, I would like my (few) readers to be able to pass around my books as I have readily shared print books. Thanks to the digital pirates, sharing and donating are overly complicated. I don't have answer to the problem, but I understand a librarian's desire to steer clear of that morass.

The Bluefield College library wants to express appreciation to the following authors in this group for donating copies of their books: Thad Brown (The Smoking Gun Sisterhood) Tom Holzel (Staff Sergeant Belinda Watt), and Lance Charnes (The Collection). The first one has finally been processed and cataloged for the shelf (and hopefully the other two will be before long), so is now available for interlibrary loan, if anyone is interested. (Just tell your local librarian that our library's three-letter OCLC code is PYX; he/she will know what that means.) But please note that we only loan books to other U.S. libraries; BC's postage meter can't handle postage to foreign countries.