Jane Austen discussion

Mr. Collins is a clergyman many enjoy despising. But when digging deeper, I found some good qualities and put them in this blog:

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...

See if you agree!

Hmm interesting and I agree on certain points but there's no way I could ever marry him.

Victoria - I read your blog, and I think you make some great points. I don't consider Mr. Collins a detestable character, nor do I particularly like him. I have always found ridiculous the most apt description of him. I don't think he had any original thoughts. I have generally thought his good points the result of his education to be a clergyman.

Funnily enough, before my husband and I were married, he read my favorite book (P&P) and I read his (The Godfather). When we talked about it afterwards, he was worried he was the most like Mr. Collins.

I enjoyed reading the blog. It is not often anyone comes to the defense of Mr. Collins or Mrs. Bennett for that matter. I am not well versed in the times this is taking place, but some things about human beings never change. Mr. Bennett never misses an opportunity to ridicule and tease his wife. Charlotte works on living as separate from her husband as she can. That is not how good relationships are built and nurtured and their marriages suffer accordingly.

I see Jane Austen describing people as she had observed them in real life. She does not condone Mr. Bennett's treatment of his wife, though I do not see her criticizing Charlotte. Our view of Mr. Collins may also be impacted by us always seeing him through non-biased eyes.

I agree, i think mr Collins has several good qualities. I particularly like the fact that he is not personally conceited. I mean, he certainly expects elizabeth to accept his offer of marriage, but only because he thinks she is unlikely to have a better offer because of her lack of fortune. He does not think he's irresistible or anything. Nor does he look down on the Bennet family like some others in the book.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Hmm interesting and I agree on certain points but there's no way I could ever marry him."

Me either! Lol! Who could marry him...except for Charlotte Lucas!

Louise wrote: "He does not think he's irresistible or anything. ..."

I kind of think he does feel that. I think he's vastly conceited - based solely on Lady Catherine's patronage; I always saw the proposal scene as one big assumption that Lizzie would obviously marry him - not only because of the money, but because he was obviously such a magnificent specimen.

Maybe it's not conceit, as in "I'm spectacular"; maybe it's simple self-involvement, in which he can't comprehend anyone else's point of view. It's that self-centeredness (I'm going to read from Fordyce's Sermons for the next several hours, and naturally everyone will be hanging from my every word) that makes him so incredibly repellent.

Persis wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Hmm interesting and I agree on certain points but there's no way I could ever marry him."

Me either! Lol! Who could marry him...except for Charlotte Lucas!"

quite a lot of girls would have been pleased to accept him, Mary Bennet would certainly have taken him if he had offered for her for instance. He has a good living, and the prospect of future waelth when he inherits the Bennet estate, that would certainly make him acceptable to many girls, those without a substantial dowry or great beauty, of which there were many.

Tracey wrote: "Louise wrote: "He does not think he's irresistible or anything. ..."

I kind of think he does feel that. I think he's vastly conceited - based solely on Lady Catherine's patronage; I always saw the..."

I don't get the impression he thinks of himself as a magnificent specimen. He says to elizabeth 'lovely and amiable though you are, it is by no means certain That another offer will be made to you'. That suggests he has quite a Realistic view of his own desirability - it is elizabeth's supposed limited choice that he expects to cause her to accept him, since he can offer her a comfortable establishment and the prospect of future wealth.

I'm glad to see someone stick up for Mr. Collins. He's not an utter monster. The Mr. Collinses that I have encountered in JAFF are really repulsive, greasy, horrid people. He has his faults to be sure, but he means well.

Lona wrote: "I'm glad to see someone stick up for Mr. Collins. He's not an utter monster. The Mr. Collinses that I have encountered in JAFF are really repulsive, greasy, horrid people. He has his faults to be s..."

I think Mr Collins was very generous to intend to offer marriage a Bennett daughter as he would inherit the property.

Mr Collins was under no obligation to provide for his uncle family except out of xn feeling for the plight of his uncle family. Neither Mr Bennett nor Lizzie cared for plight of the family when Mr Bennett dies.

Also, I've seen criticism of Charlotte for looking out for herself in marrying Mr Collins. I don't think any less of her. In looking out for herself, she didn't hurt anyone or do it at the expense of someone else. She's smarter, if less pretty than the Bennett girls. I admire practicality and good sense over idealism and romanticism.

I think JA did him a disservice in making him ridiculous and obscuring his better qualities. He had good intentions and wanted to do the Bennett family some good.

I've also said perhaps in this group, I don't recall where: I suspect the Huntsford parish living is a generous one, despite Lady Catherine de Burgh's domineering personality. I think Mr Collins is thankful for a good living. I've also mentioned in this these previous comments that I am repeating that Rev Fairbrother in the book Middlemarch has a living of £40 and has his widowed mother, his unmarried sister and his maternal aunt all living with him. I don't see how he could have a family of his own. I don't begrudge Mr. Collins his gratitude to Lady Catherine de Burgh. I really suspect he's well-paid. JA doesn't say so, but I like to think this is why he is so thankful for Lady Catherine's interest.

He is a bit conceited, though he doesn't think he's God's gift to women, he just assumes his cousins are in such a predicament that one of them will marry him. He aims high-first for Jane, because she's the most beautiful; then Lizzie because she's the next eldest and next prettiest. He could have gone straight for Mary, the one who would have said yes in a heartbeat. He could have gone for Lydia in hopes of reforming her character. He's not attractive physically and his manners are gauche. His constant obsequiousness would drive any sane person crazy. Lady Catherine has given him a puffed up opinion of himself so his pride was wounded when Lizzie rejected him. Charlotte smoothed his ruffled feathers and makes him a great wife because she knows how to handle him and flatter his vanity.

With Collins Jane Austen was poking fun at the insincere clergy. Younger sons and relatives of upper gentry who basically had a profession handed to them without any sincere convictions. Her father seems to have been a sincere clergyman. I believe he had a sense of humor given the contents of his library and the fact he was a proud Papa. I wonder what he would have thought of the final draft of P&P and Mr. Collins? We know he enjoyed First Impressions enough to shop it around to publishers so I think he got the joke that is Mr. Collins.

In some ways though Mr. Collins resembles Mr. Darcy. Darcy would be horrified to be compared to Collins but they are both rather vain and think any woman would be happy to marry them. Thanks to Lizzie, Darcy sees how his pride makes him unappealing to people but Collins never gets that he's a joke.

I doubt that Collins is well paid. Lady Catherine strikes me as parsimonious. The Collinses have at least one maid. Having her as a patron brings Collins a certain amount of prestige. He is more obsequious than grateful, I think. He owes his livelihood to Lady Catherine for now and he is bowled over that such as august personage would take an interest in him and wants everyone to know it. Lady Catherine undoubtedly chose Collins because he isn't very bright and she can tell him what to say in his sermons and he will feed her sense of self-worth by being overly grateful. Collins isn't bright enough to see Lady Catherine is using him. It's Charlotte who is intelligent enough to know where her bread is buttered, so to speak.

I looked up cost of living in that period. Regina Jeffers states on her blog Iin Sense & Sensibility, the Dashwood family lived on 500 pounds a year while keeping two servants. Jane Austen's World goes into more detail for Sense & Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice

QNPoohBear wrote: "He is a bit conceited, though he doesn't think he's God's gift to women, he just assumes his cousins are in such a predicament that one of them will marry him. He aims high-first for Jane, because ..."

I think that his cousins were at that point indeed in such a predicament that one of them has to marry him. I think it was really pride that stopped him from proposing to the other Bennet sisters. (Jane's case didn't stop him because he was not rejected). I'd think it would be rather humiliating to propose to the younger sister when the elder one has rejected him straight. He also clearly does not know the Bennet sisters well so he would not have known that Mary would have accepted his proposal of marriage if he did propose, so what if Mary rejects him too? Continue proposing to the younger sisters?

Like some have mentioned before, he isn't even obliged to marry one of his cousins. He does not need to lower himself and seem so pathetic just to marry one of the Bennet sisters.

Loved reading an unconventional point of view!

This is a very, very unconventional point of view, and while JA intends to mock him in the story, I can also see how these redeeming qualities can be worked in without even the intention to do so. Well, you've done the impossible, Miss Victoria: you've turned my absolute loathing of William Collins into a very strong dislike.

This POV is so unusual and yet so realistic - there is seldom any one or two sides to a story such as this. Mr. Collins is yet another character pushed on the bad guy side by the bad traits he most exhibits, but I agree that he's blackened quite a bit in JAFF.

Maybe we could start a group where the more side-shunted characters in P&P are defended for the good qualities they do show in the book, such as Mr. Bennet, Lady Catherine, etc. etc. Maybe even Lydia or Mrs. Bennet? Everyone, what do you say?

I have always thought that Mr Collins was kind in coming to visit with the intention of marring one of the Bennent girls He could have tried for someone in his own parish (then of course there would be no story)

I think much of Lizzie's aversion was sexual. Charlotte, who is not romantic, is indifferent to that.

I have already posted a blos on Lydia (For the Love of Lydia)
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...

and
Mrs. Bennet is discussed in this (Jane Austen and Her Mothers)
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...

Austen is generally so fantastic with her character creation that you can imagine their points of view even when it is not presented explicitly.

Mrs wrote: "I have always thought that Mr Collins was kind in coming to visit with the intention of marring one of the Bennent girls He could have tried for someone in his own parish (then of course there woul..."

I feel the same.

In many essays on JA one comes across the idea that no one is entirely good or bad (except Mrs Norris )in these novels. This is true in all the novels once one is aware of this it pretty much includes everone ( though it is hard to find a negative trait in Mr Knightly)(Mary Crawford is the most apparent some people even like her a lot and ignore her negative traits)I think Mr Collins is a good example being stupip self centeredetc but with good intentions

Mrs wrote: "In many essays on JA one comes across the idea that no one is entirely good or bad (except Mrs Norris )in these novels. This is true in all the novels once one is aware of this it pretty much inclu..."

Austen took the names Mansfield and Norris from real people (though dead when she wrote Mansfield Park). Lord Mansfield was the title of the Lord Chief Justice whose decisions in certain cases made it possible to end slavery, while Norris was the last name of a notorious slave trader. Near the end of Mansfield Park Sir Thomas wonders what he ever saw in Mrs. Norris - an allegorical rejection of slavery.

The rejection was probably not complete yet for Sir Thomas; he certainly had a sugar plantation with slaves in Antigua.

When I and my brother first read Pride and Prejudice we liked Mr Collins. We only found out later we weren't supposed to

?
I always liked Mr. Collins from the first time I read the book. In his own way, he meant very well.
I rather do not understand why Lizzy despises him so much.
Yes, I will marry Mr. Collins no problem.

I don't dislike Mr Collins and I think Lizzy is far too harsh in despising him.

Yes, Mr Collins is pompous, conceited, silly and too much in awe of authority but while he will inherit Longbourn, he isn't forced to marry one of his cousins.
I think he chose to marry one of them both a bit out of laziness (the families in the neighbourhood of Rosings are generally above him and he'd have to look much more to find someone either there or elsewhere and he has never formed any valuable connections while at university) and also because despite his shortcomings, he wants to do good by the Bennets. If he marries Jane (or Lizzy as it then turns out), he will help his relations and have a grateful wife/family.
I'm not questioning the view that it's predominantly a selfish motive - it very much is! - but from his point of view it is also one of charity/friendship/value for relations. When he comes to Longbourn and sees that the girls are pretty, he is satisfied because he thinks his good deed is also paying off by their looks.
When he has to exchange one sister for the other, it's almost the same to him as they are equal in many ways and he isn't really in love with any of them, so his adoration of Elizabeth is just imaginary.
If he had been smarter, he'd probably have realised that the only sister who'd suit him well and who'd be willing to take him is Mary but he is far too self-absorbed, and as she is the only plain looking one among them he'd never consider marrying her.
He will not consider either Kitty or Lydia because they have shown that they do not value him at all neither as a relation nor a possible suitor and at least that he might have realised thanks to their behaviour towards him.

I don't think he really considered Charlotte either. I think it was her pushing him towards proposing because he'd have left Longbourn without an engagement if Charlotte hadn't made it clear to him that she was willing to marry him.
I also think that he asked her because he had come to Longbourn to marry one of the girls, and I bet he had made it clear enough to Lady C. that he'd return home an engaged man and to lose face like that wasn't an option. After all, he is a very vain man.

As to Charlotte, I absolutely see her point. She is not romantic, sees her situation very clearly, sees an opportunity. Didn't snatch him away from her friend but knew full well that there was no way Elizabeth would accept Mr Collins. So why not try for herself?!

I can understand that Lizzy finds Mr Collins ridiculous - he is. But in general I am with Jane: Mr Collinsis in a respectable and good situation in life and despite his shortcomings, not a bad man. Not a man to be admired but not bad at heart.

I agree with Isabel except for the last paragraph. While Mr. Collins isn't bad per se, he's just ew. Pompous, silly, stupid, toad-eating (suck up/obsequious/whatever), and a complete fool. Charlotte sees this and goes into the marriage eyes wide open. She flatters his vanity and he is too stupid to see it. She encourages him in his garden so she doesn't have to deal with him during the day. She gives him the room with the best light so he isn't bugging her all the time. She makes the best of her situation. I don't envy her.

Lizzie can't respect him. He isn't her intellectual equal and she can't marry a man she doesn't respect. Her father even tells her so. She also can't marry a man she is in awe of. Her spirit would be squashed.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I agree with Isabel except for the last paragraph. While Mr. Collins isn't bad per se, he's just ew. ... "

I agree with that. He might be respectable but he is not a man any sensible woman would want to be married to.
As you say, Charlotte marries him despite his shortcomings because it helps her out of poverty later in life. She doesn't like him, though.
It's actually sad that she has to suffer in one part of her life (not respecting her husband as a human being and actually disliking being with him in the same room for long) so she can be comfortable in another (not being poor) but that was probably not too uncommon in those days so I can understand her decision to marry him. Especially as she has found ways to be with him as little as possible (separate rooms they stay during the day, encouraging him to be outside as much as possible).

In a way Lizzy's short sightedness in regards to her possible poverty shows her lack of planning for the future. Her silly mother sees that possible outcome more clearly than the daughter. In that respect, Lizzy is actually like her father who never planned for not having a son. Both live in the now.
In the end they are rewarded but it could have easily been a bad outcome.

Despite the influence of his "illiterate and miserly" father, and the conflicting emotions (conceit and humility) brought on by the good luck of attracting Lady Catherine's notice when Hunsford was vacant, Mr. Collins comes to Longbourn with good intentions - by marrying one of the Bennet girls, he would be taking on the societal, if not legal, obligation for looking out for his mother in law and sisters in law upon Mr. Bennet's death. His offer comes at the most opportune time to throw a lifeline to the family - though it may have been prompted by his father's death and a desire to heal a breach, it also comes at the point where a Bennet son was no longer a prospect - Austen writes that "for many years after Lydia's birth" Mrs. Bennet was certain that a son would come along until "This event had at last been despaired of." Since Lydia is only 15 going on 16, that despair would have been fairly recent.
Mr. Collins also understands that, as the last in line to the Longbourn entail, it's his job to produce the next heir.
Mr. Collins' offense at Elizabeth's refusal (I've always thought he should have asked Mary) is not unjustified. Without a brother to cut off the entail, and with a father who has done very little to ensure their financial security after his death, the five Bennet girls, unless they married, would be reduced to living as the Dashwood women, or worse, as Mrs. and Miss Bates, without some intervention from the Gardiners or the Phillipses.

I'd rather be the Dashwoods or Miss Bates than marry Mr. Collins. I could NOT endure all that marriage to him entails. There is just no way. I perfectly understand Lizzie's refusal. Lizzie isn't as practical as Charlotte who can make the best of a bad situation. Mr. Collins didn't ask Mary because she's not pretty.

Me too, I agree with QNPOOHBEAR.

I agree with the blog post, he does have some good qualities. He's mostly there for comic relief, but as a character, he's gold! The proposals that Elizabeth received from Mr. Collins and Mr. Darcy were cringe-worthy in the conceit the men showed with their assumption of being accepted.