Our Shared Shelf discussion

Hi all!

I've been enjoying reading all of the different comments and threads and have been gaining a lot of new perspectives on not just the book, but on feminism in general as well.

When I read the book (about a year ago), I really related to her stories about growing up overweight, starting her period, shaving, things like that. They resonated so hard with me that I had to put the book down for awhile.

On the other hand, I did notice the amount of exclusivity, a lot of which has been brought up in other threads. People seem to think that her lack of LGBT and POC makes this a problematic book.

My question is: Does a memoir (a book about someone's personal experiences) have to touch on the experiences of others? Does the fact that this is a memoir change how we think of feminist writings that aren't intersectional? Should a white cisfemale be writing about the experiences of others? Are we putting standards of feminist theoretical writings to a simple memoir?

Thoughts?

I agree with you. One of my favorite definitions of a memoir came from David Shields: the true story of how one human being solves the problems of being a human being. It's too much to expect memoirists to include other people's experiences. Besides, who'd believe them anyway? We're all experts on ourselves, but very little else.

I don't think she has to have or include experiences of what it is like to be black, or gay, or from a non-western country, etc., but that is different from having an intersectional analysis. One shouldn't "make up" false experiences, but I think being able to look back on your own life and notice how it was affected by these issues is something everyone can do. For example, if you grow up sheltered, only ever meeting or interacting with people of your own class or race, how does that affect you, especially once your networks begin to broaden? How do you relate back to people who never had your more diverse experiences? How much of your homogenous experience affects your politics? This is what I think people misunderstand when some of us ask for her book to be more intersectional -- I for one wouldn't want her to lie and say she's had friendships or experiences she hasn't, but I think it would behoove people like her to employ a more intersectional type of feminist politics, especially in a memoir. Even if you are a white, middle-class, straight woman, your life is still touched by race, class, sexuality, and while you may not have the same perspective as a woman of color or bisexual woman, you can still speak to what it means to hold this identity in a world in which being white, middle-class, and straight often means unearned advantages.

I also want to say that I do not like the idea that theory and praxis are so separate. If you're writing a memoir that so directly engages with feminism, and is entitled, "How to be a woman," I believe it's reasonable for people to expect a deeper analysis out of this memoir, than say, Tina Fey's book.

Basically my idea is this: saying that only women of color, LGBT women, working-class women, etc. can talk about race, sexuality, and class suggests to me that 1.) cisgender white women don't have racial, sexual, or class identities -- they're the default and 2). It is up to women (or people) who have these "intersectional" experiences to share them and educate us. As a white woman, I cannot describe what it is like to be Asian, but I can explore how my own history is affected by my status as a white woman and how I feel I must work to end white supremacy. I can talk about what it is like to be segregated from other races, and how/if I overcame my prejudices that I absorbed from living in such isolated areas. If I don't, then the burden is with people of color to speak about ending racism, and I can use the "politics of lived experience" to continue to be silent on race.

Sorry for the long comment, hope it makes sense - I'm procrastinating on finals :) Thanks for asking this interesting question!

Laurelei wrote: "I don't think she has to have or include experiences of what it is like to be black, or gay, or from a non-western country, etc., but that is different from having an intersectional analysis. One s..."

What Laurelai said. An intersectional understanding and inclusion aren't the same thing. People keep saying well she can't be inclusive if she doesn't know any people who aren't like her. Which is of course true. But then intersectional thinking would encourage her (and us) to think about why she doesn't know any people who aren't like her. Not in the sense of that means she's a terrible person and should be ashamed and shunned. More in the sense of wow am I living in a closed community without realizing it?

Very true! Of course it's also very important in addressing the reader and keeping them in mind. how will a black woman feel about this? a trans boy who indeed wants to be in charge of his vagina? a disabled woman that's never been catcalled?

I think it would be nonsensical and offensive for her to write about the experiences of others just for the sake of inclusivity. Her story is hers and her experience of feminism is hers. I think it's best to simply celebrate that and then encourage/support memorists from other groups that are less represented.

I think we need to recall the difference between memoir and feminist work once again.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about not knowing people of colour, sexual minorities, etc., I do speak of it beyond "knowing personally". Apparently that has to be written out loud, too, so here I am saying that when I talk about this, I mean the whole thing.

As for a memoir, well, let's not police others in regards to what content they should create when writing about their own lives. Suggesting such is ridiculous, offensive, and rather fundamentalist if you ask me.

If I choose to write a memoir involving for example stamp collecting, my active years in youth work, and what I think of the fashion industry, I reserve the right to compose a mix of those three however I please. And it may or may not sound intersectional. Those who wish to write about feminism alone in their own personal memoir, should feel free to do so. I will conclude feminism has take a lot of their attention, but it does not make me a lesser feminist for choosing to include other things in my own text. Those aren't mutually exclusive in any way, as opposed to what might be suggested.

Is a memoir only writing about your experiences, or can it be examining your experiences (or what you didn't experience) with more wisdom?

Laurelei wrote: "Is a memoir only writing about your experiences, or can it be examining your experiences (or what you didn't experience) with more wisdom?"

Is it possible to find wisdom to extrapolate in different sorts of texts? Or is there only one sort of truth?

Who's to say that a stamp collection can't be discussed in ways that make it the most breath-taking art? That transcends all human-made constructs?

I feel something in regards to subjective life experiences is getting very belittled in this thread. Are we feminists? Yes. Can we grow as people outside of the feminist context, then apply what we learned within said context? Yes.

What I gathered from this is that the memoir (about her experiences) is lacking reflection on which she analyzes the exclusivity of those experiences.

Laurelei wrote: "Is a memoir only writing about your experiences, or can it be examining your experiences (or what you didn't experience) with more wisdom?"

I appreciate your questions Laurelei, because they made me think: is it our place to demand a certain type of examination? I believe that each person reflects back on their lives in different ways. If she doesn't see her experiences through the lens we are seeing them through, does that put her at fault or make her non-intersectional? Is she not allowed to own her experiences without taking everyone into account?

I ask these questions because I'm a bit torn on which direction to go. On one hand, I vehemently agree with the need to be more inclusive, but are someone's memories and experiences the place to demand that? I find that intersectional feminism has more of a place in feminist theory, which can often draw from feminist memoirs.

Did you guys feel the same way about Gloria Steinem's memoir?

Aglaea wrote: "I think we need to recall the difference between memoir and feminist work once again.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about not knowing people of colour, sexual minorities, etc., I ..."

Thanks for the reply, Agalea. Whenever I think about the critiquing of feminist works, I can't help but think that us, women and feminists, hold women to the same standards that oppress us. Particularly the idea that women have to take care of everything and everyone; they have to sacrifice themselves for the good of everyone else. Does this resonate with others? As women, we are constantly being asked to put others before us. Should we keep demanding this even in feminist circles?

Marina wrote: "Very true! Of course it's also very important in addressing the reader and keeping them in mind. how will a black woman feel about this? a trans boy who indeed wants to be in charge of his vagina? ..."

I think those are impossible standards to hold anyone to. No one should have to police their own feelings. I'm not going to ~censor~ my experiences or memories on being catcalled, because there are people who have never been catcalled. How do you approach a memoir when you have to appease each and every person who might stumble across it? Isn't the point of a memoir to bring people into your OWN life, whether its similar or foreign to you?

Haylee wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "I think we need to recall the difference between memoir and feminist work once again.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about not knowing people of colour, sexual minor..."

I don't think there is anything wrong in asking for high quality per se, but what rubs me the wrong way is when we cross the line into judgment territory, whilst forgetting that every single song is equally important and that everyone can teach everyone else something. And voices are okay to sound different. The situation is different when we apply rigid standards such as those within scientific research, but when we are discusding subjective experiences, some humility could be added to what is lacking currently. If nothing else then at least POC may have received food for thought how to discuss various intersectional problems with white people - and that is valuable, too. Perhaps not what was expected, but valuable nonetheless, if one values dialogue and trying to reach one another at some point. There are many roads leading to Rome, not just one.

Haylee said: "I find that intersectional feminism has more of a place in feminist theory, which can often draw from feminist memoirs."

See, for me, I find the distinction between theory/praxis (or memoir in this instance) to be an unnecessary binary. I want to collapse this distinction. I think a memoir would be an excellent venue to apply theory; after all, intersectional theory is only useful if it describes real lives and can be put to use to improve or radically alter our lives. It's not a demand, and perhaps I'm wrong for this -- but I have high standards for those who use feminism to sell books or ideas.

This is not to say that every memoir must address every thing, that every woman or man must engage in issues of race, class, gender, sexuality, and so on, but I think that if you publish a book that relies on feminism to garner attention and sales, it's reasonable to expect more.

Haylee wrote: "Marina wrote: "Very true! Of course it's also very important in addressing the reader and keeping them in mind. how will a black woman feel about this? a trans boy who indeed wants to be in charge ..."

I don't mean censoring her memories but simply not assuming that all women get catcalled or all people with vaginas are women. Her generalizations may be hilarious, but mostly when you're part of them.

This also depends on what we expect of this memoir. If we just look at it as art, sure, she can write whatever she want (though I wish it was less easy to find a publisher for this kind of thing). But in terms of promoting feminism and making anyone who needs it welcome in the movement, the book is mostly a failure.

I mean sure, we never know what will upset people, my friend is scared of bananas for example. But being sensitive to those who experience systematic oppression should be pretty obvious.

I feel like this discussion is just going around and around in circles.

Bunny wrote: "I feel like this discussion is just going around and around in circles."

Question: What do you gain by being so dismissive towards others?

Marina wrote: "Haylee wrote: "Marina wrote: "Very true! Of course it's also very important in addressing the reader and keeping them in mind. how will a black woman feel about this? a trans boy who indeed wants t..."

But didn't you say in another thread that you weren't going to read it..? Therefore how are you able to deem it a 'failure'. I agree that the book should've been more inclusive and sensitive (especially with some of the seemingly anti-Trans comments), but it had a lot of redeeming qualities. For me, it was almost cathartic to hear that someone went through the same kind of childhood I did. That there are others who experience sexism and bodily shame from such a young age, which transcends race. It allowed me to reflect on my own childhood and how its affected my adult life.

Does it have to apply to everyone to be a success? This is why I was asking those questions, because as a memoir you would think the author had more of a right to be a bit "selfish" (for lack of a better word).

Laurelei wrote: "This is not to say that every memoir must address every thing, that every woman or man must engage in issues of race, class, gender, sexuality, and so on, but I think that if you publish a book tha..."

This. This is kind of what I was trying to figure out in my mind, I just had trouble getting there. I read this book over a year ago, and at the time, I had no idea that it was being marketed as some kind of 'feminist' awakening or whatever. I can totally understand people coming to the book under that guise and finding it lacking. When I read it, I took the title 'How to be a woman' and figured it meant how she learned to accept herself, as a woman, and her femininity, for what it is. I don't know if that makes sense, but it did in my head!

Because she's seen as a sort of comedian, It'd be interested in how the pairing of feminist theory and memoir would work out in this instance.

Thank you for the productive replies, and I apologize if my questions are irritating. I just saw a lot of criticism on other boards and it made me wonder about how that is applied to a genre that is so personal for the author.

Haylee wrote: "Bunny wrote: "I feel like this discussion is just going around and around in circles."

Question: What do you gain by being so dismissive towards others?"

I'm sorry that you find me dismissive. It is not my intention.

Bunny wrote: "Haylee wrote: "Bunny wrote: "I feel like this discussion is just going around and around in circles."

Question: What do you gain by being so dismissive towards others?"

I'm sorry that you find me..."

I was under the impression that the discussion was going good - it was respectful and productive. I, personally, have learned a lot as it has given me a lot to think about. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way.

I'm glad you are finding it helpful and interesting.

Haylee, I find your questions excellent! I think it's because people came to the book from two very different directions, the memoir type of work, and the feminist one.

So instead of successfully having pulled off fusing those two, the group has kind of split up completely, and some people have tried to ponder in depth about merits the book could have, whilst others have shot it down rather brutally without mentioning anything good in it.

I don't mind the shooting down, when space is left for others to have a more nuanced experienced - that of finding both positives and negatives - but when the portion that has enjoyed at least some chapters if not all is frankly being spoken down to, it's clear that what I wrote in the first sentence holds true.

The problem I see in this pattern is that people aren't allowed to decide for themselves whether they view it more as a memoir or feminist work, and if they choose the "wrong" category, they definitely will hear about it in a quite aggressive way, which comes across as pestering others.

So while I definitely agree with Laurelei about the problematic marketing thing (message 16 I think), this thread was also for memoirs in general. And as such, reflects how a bunch of readers have interpreted the book to be, kind of case in point.

The sad part is that by now I have mentioned in more than one thread how we do need to have patience for others to catch up with us, to reach the place where all of us have the same amount of information and digested such that we all speak the same language, but even after that, absolutely no self-reflection has happened in the overly critical voices and they haven't at all taken to heart this message.

There's room for improvement in all of us, yet those voices are oblivious to their own flaws. Because the hounding keeps occurring... But hey, that's life and we should all just suck it up, right? No need for others to make efforts to change tone, it's just us who need to change, because they are without fault. (that was me writing with tongue in cheek)

So once again, a memoir can be subjective, it can and will be read in a subjective way, but once all that is said and done, it's exhausting to see only the flaws being pointed out, no matter which book we are discussing. It would be acceptable if we ourselves are without flaws, but we're not.

Just to clarify, the idea was not only that trans women are real women, but also that trans men might be reluctant to identify as feminists, so it's better not to push the label on them. Essentially she tells non-binary and transgender people the same thing that society does: that their genitals are more important than their mind.

Since you're a male ally, let me just ask you not to quote what Moran says about "women this, women that" if you ever find yourself arguing with a feminist.

Marina wrote: "Just to clarify, the idea was not only that trans women are real women, but also that trans men might be reluctant to identify as feminists, so it's better not to push the label on them. Essentiall..."

For someone who preaches inclusiveness so hardcore, you're doing a really great job at excluding a lot of people from discussions. On a thread that is discussing a book that you haven't even read.

If you had read the book, you would've found that she actually said the complete opposite of what you're saying: your genitals matter, whether they are "acceptable" or not, and they do not determine your worth.

I suggest that you read Agalea's comment, as she is spot on in regards to this kind of behavior. It is not your job to "police" people or decide who is a feminist or not. You don't get to come in here and shut people down because they are offering a different perspective than yours. Considering this conversation has now been derailed, maybe you can start your own thread and display your messages there.

Aglaea wrote: "Haylee, I find your questions excellent! I think it's because people came to the book from two very different directions, the memoir type of work, and the feminist one.

So instead of successfully ..."

Agalaea, first, I apologize for spelling your name wrong in the above comment.

Secondly, I love what you wrote. Feminism is so personal for a lot of people and it means something different to each and every one of us and I have seen a lot of attitudes that don't reflect that. In this group I have seen several instances of people talking down to others, dismissing them, and shutting them out. It makes me upset that this group was formed to bring people together from different countries, lives, religious, backgrounds in order for them to discuss and share their experiences and ideas and to see so many of them shut down by others who can't accept that people have different perspectives.

When I posted this thread, I simply wanted to discuss on how this book being a memoir changed how we talked and thought about it, and now its turned into something messy and a bit tense. That was not my intention.

Thank you for your wise insights. Like I mentioned earlier, I have gained a lot of new perspectives on this topic. Maybe what is currently happening here can inspire a new thread about the exclusiveness of feminism. I have a feeling if I wrote that I would be attacked for doing so though haha

It's also not Moran's job to decide who's a feminist depending on whether they have a vagina. and the author of this review did read the book.
Besides, to me this part is a specific example of non-memoir content.
But sorry if you feel that it's a derailment. I assumed you started this thread specifically because people have long been making the argument that this book is a memoir, to discuss this idea in more detail. Or were we just meant to agree with you that we are "putting standards of feminist theoretical writings to a simple memoir"?

To me it's so ironic that you say I can't accept that people have different perspectives. You can't really accept mine either, eh?

I've actually been really perceptive to other perspectives. You can look at messages #11, 12, 21, 22, and 31. I agreed with you on a couple of points.

What I don't agree with and I think it's fairly obvious why is to tell people "Since you're a male ally, let me just ask you not to quote what Moran says about "women this, women that" if you ever find yourself arguing with a feminist." Of course tone is hard to read over the internet, but it comes off as if you are telling him what he is allowed or not allowed to say. His message came off as light hearted and genuine, did it deserve that?

I'm not making an argument on whether this is a memoir or not. It is a memoir, there's no arguing about that. I asked to what extent do we judge it as a 'feminist' piece of work since its so personal in nature. That is ultimately up to opinion, but I don't think its anyone's place to talk down to anymore. There are more than enough comments up above to prove that people can discuss this without it turning into a preach session. There's not any one way to be a feminist (nor is it exclusive to only females).

I apologize if my message came off rudely (like I said, tone is difficult to read), but I don't think it's hard to have a respectful and progressive exchange with people over topics like these.

Also, thank you for linking me to that blog. As a librarian, I'm always on the look out for new book blogs.

Well, he can do whatever he wants. I won't know and certainly won't police/silence/attack him. I literally asked him not to use the generalizations that don't represent me and/or women I know. Allies generally like specific ideas on what they can do.
In another thread I also asked someone else to acknowledge the concerns about intersectionality if they recommend the book to someone.
edit: lol, just as I posted this, someone told me in another thread that I "should" read the book, much more strongly than how I said it here.

I'm just going to stop posting about this book because I feel like my point of view is unwelcome.

Bunny wrote: "I'm just going to stop posting about this book because I feel like my point of view is unwelcome."

Feel free to answer my question to you on the thread about appreciating this book for what it is.

Thanks Kressel, I have found you to be pleasant to talk with but I think I'm going to take a little break. Maybe we can catch up with each other later.

It's a shame that every thread about something like this is just being derailed by people. It's hardly fair on those who genuinely like to discuss things and learn from other peoples experiences.

Back to the original question, I think for me, we have to compared this to other ideas and thoughts outside of feminism. It's not fair to put rules on feminism that we just wouldn't expect of other things because we want everyone to be represented. To me a memoir is a writing about someones reflections and their experiences. It's personal, and it's about them. They shouldn't have to write about something they can't reflect on because other people want them too, it wouldn't feel authentic.

For example, if I was to read a memoir of someone growing up in the same country as me, in the same time. I would expect there to be some things I could relate to, but on the subject of family, I'd expect it to be completely different in general as I was brought up by my Dad alone from the age of 13. I wouldn't expect the author of a memoir to reflect on the idea of what it would have been like growing up as a teenager without a Mum, because that isn't their experience.

I think there is so much to learn from people who aren't the same as you, who have experienced different things to you and who come from a different walk of a life. I think that's what makes reading interesting and insightful.

You definitely make a very valid point as the reader's perspective changes the opinion more or less favourably. When I read it as a book on feminism, I thought of the whole experience as that of a British white cis women who has very exclusive views and probably does not consider other viewpoints or feminisms except to be sassy about them.

On the other hand, when Moran's memoir is factored into my perspective, along with the idea of a target audience that one has to have as a writer, I am more understanding. I get that this whole book is about Moran's experiences and her world (i.e. British life) views.

Having said that, I do believe that she meant it to more than a memoir. She intended to use her experiences as a medium to promote her ideas, and certain political, and ideological problems, in her society. So in this sense, it doesn't entirely serve the purpose of a "memoir".

Like I said earlier, a writer can't write for every one (cc target audience) unless there are multiple authors involved (not just white cis British ones) and the final piece is hundreds of pages long. Basically, an anthology of such memoirs. (If this hasn't been done already, I hope it is.)

As a reader, I do feel excluded to some extent but not all as quite a lot of the issues Moran discusses are universally feminine (like puberty and clothes). I am sure we (women and men) can find some, if not all, parts where we can learn. After all, what else do we read for? Belonging, learning, and vicarious experience.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, calling a cis women's experience universal is cissexist/transphobic.

Emma wrote: "Kerry wrote: "I think there is so much to learn from people who aren't the same as you, who have experienced different things to you and who come from a different walk of a life. I think that's wha..."

That's actually why I love memoirs. I could never possibly experience everything in the world, my experience is so limited. But reading a memoir of someone very different to myself is so eye opening and can give you such a fresh and new perspective. I don't have to agree with what they've said at all, but just seeing their perspective and understanding it can help in building up an opinion and stance on a particular issue.

Emma wrote: "@Fiza I love how you said "What else do we read for? Belonging, learning, and vicarious experience." Couldn't have said it better!"

Completely agree :)

I love memoirs and in general I wouldn't expect to find scientific theories etc. in them - I mean if it's there, fine, but I don't mind if it's not. However I agree with the people in this thread who wrote that the title “How to be a woman” and the book apparently being marketed as a book about or related to feminism would suggest that it does apply theories and a more inclusive approach.

I enjoyed reading Moran’s book and there were some chapters where I wholeheartedly agreed with her and thought she made some great points. But there were also a lot of chapters that were rather hard to read because I couldn’t relate at all since my personality and life experiences are very different from hers. I didn’t mind that I often couldn’t relate as I don’t expect that from a memoir. In my opinion a memoir is supposed to be about one person’s individual and subjective experiences and reflections. What did bother me were the gross generalizations and assumptions she made occasionally. Don’t get me wrong, there were chapters where she differentiated between herself and others but there were also many passages where she writes “we (as women) are …”, “we do …”, “all women …”, “every woman …”, “all teenagers …” and that was the one thing that I really disliked about Moran’s book.
I don’t expect a memoir to include other points of view and perspectives, but I expect the writer of a memoir to be aware that their perspective and experiences are not universal.

I hope I expressed myself well enough and my meaning is clear (it would be better in my native language ;-)

Emma wrote: "I think a lot of people had problems with her inclusive diction and generalizations. It bothered me, but I tried to just ignore it when I didn't relate with her. I am not sure if that is just Moran's style or her efforts to bring her readers together with these statements...."

Thanks, glad to read that there were no misunderstandings :-)

I haven't read any other books by Moran so far, so I don't know if that is her typical style of writing. If it was her goal to bring her readers together then it backfired.
And a memoir to me is just writing about yourself not speaking for everyone else, it's the readers authority to decide if they can relate and feel alike not the writer's to determine that everybody else is like them.
It was just difficult or impossible actually for me to ignore the generalizations.

Jeanette wrote: "I don’t expect a memoir to include other points of view and perspectives, but I expect the writer of a memoir to be aware that their perspective and experiences are not universal.

I hope I expressed myself well enough and my meaning is clear (it would be better in my native language ;-) .."

I found that really clear and well expressed and I felt the same way.

Bunny wrote: "I found that really clear and well expressed and I felt the same way.
..."

Thank you!