Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Our short Story Read for May 2016 is Siddhartha, 122 pages, published in 1922.

I'm not very far into the story. I'm at the point where Siddhartha and Govinda have seen the Gotama for the first time but haven't yet heard his teachings.

My impression is that Siddhartha is full of himself and full of arrogance that I associate with the young.

He's quick to identify (in his mind) what others don't know, but he is assured to find.

I wonder if Siddhartha will learn humility as the story progresses...

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I wonder if Siddhartha will learn humility as the story progresses..."

I finished it yesterday. You have reached the point where Siddhartha is already wondering how to release "the ego", as it was worded in the translation I read, and reach some higher level of existence. And boy, did this one have SOME ego. Haha!

He has a tremendous ego!

Well, maybe I can help with that.
In the original German it says "Ich" which basically just means "I". Not in the sense of having an ego (as you are right he has!), but simply referring to the individual identity.
And that's the key point of the novel, right? Transcending the boundaries of individuality and becoming one with the universe...like the river which is continually the same, but still different in every moment.

Thank you for clearing this up Phil.

But I think he is arrogant because of how he sees himself and his own importance in relation to other people.

I'm just starting the Sansara chapter. I agree he's arrogant, but I read that as because of his time as a Samana, when he practiced for years to transcend the things most of us see as problems.

I liked his point about the value of patience, and what he said to the merchant about the uselessness of worrying. :-)

I was extremely hesitant to read this given the eastern theology influence (just not a topic that interests me). I'm glad it read it, for me it was the continual learning over one's life, recognizing where you are, and wanting to improve (whatever your definition of improvement is) that really spoke to me.

I think we all have that ego thing going on, but for me his willingness to move on and learn more was something I don't often see. In my experience people tend to get "stuck" in their comfort zone, like he was when he became a merchant. I thought it was wonderful that he, eventually, realized he wanted improvement.

Started and finished this one today, and it's my first read for this group (or any Goodreads group for that matter). :)

I initially wasn't sure I was going to connect much with Siddhartha himself, but he grew on me. I can relate to his feeling of superiority towards others on account of his intellect, values, and discipline, as well as to the experience of life humbling one over the years in this respect. I think in this day and age in particular we're all encouraged to view ourselves as special snowflakes, but sooner or later reality sets in. We're ordinary people, and there's nothing wrong with that (actually, you should probably come away from reading this book thinking this whole thing - the universe, us, etc. - is pretty amazing, if you didn't think it already).

Am left pondering ideas and the settings are fresh in my mind; I can still see the river, the gardens. I've had an interest in Buddhism for a number of years now, and prior to that more of a general interest in seeking "the truth" about things. I've questioned some of the same things Siddhartha does, like what the relative importance and usefulness of the teachings are, their inability to get at and express what reality and wisdom are (these are things that must be experienced for oneself). Time being illusory, all that.

Kim wrote: "Started and finished this one today, and it's my first read for this group (or any Goodreads group for that matter). :)

I initially wasn't sure I was going to connect much with Siddhartha himself,..."

So glad you joined us. Lovely Review.

Kim,

I've enjoyed your comments.

I finished the book yesterday.

I didn't care for the writing style.

I thought this book would be a 2.5 star rating, but the last section "Govinda" changed how I felt about the book.

Because this section "Govinda," more than everything else made things come together for me.

One thing that struck me as I read the book is that the people who live by Sasana, were referred to a "child like" people. BUT I thought of something from the bible New Testament:

Mark 10:15 NIV

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

I'm not sure why references made in our Short BOTM made me think of this verse. I think the "child like" people were referred to in that way by Siddhartha because they were primarily concerned with the physical aspects of life (money, fun, sex, gambling, food and more) rather than the intellect or spiritual.

But in that bible verse, to be childlike has a different meaning altogether.

Such interesting thoughts, Kim. The idea that we must experience things for ourselves really resonated with me too, and I also find the river is staying with me.

Andrea, I liked the beginning, didn't care for the middle, and the Govinda chapter was also where I began to like it again too. Great point about childlike. I wonder if it says something about the different approaches/starting points of the religions? One starts with childlike faith and one starts with rising above childlike action?

Kathy wrote: "I think the "child like" people were referred to in that way by Siddhartha because they were primarily concerned with the physical aspects of life (money, fun, sex, gambling, food and more) rather than the intellect or spiritual.

But in that bible verse, to be childlike has a different meaning altogether.

I had noticed that there seemed to be two distinct notions of "self" being referred to, but your comment reminded me there might be two senses of being "child-like" as well. Siddhartha refers to self both as being ego, as something undesirable that he strives to cast aside to get at what he really is deep down, but then whatever that is, deep down, is also referred to as self, maybe more the true self. Maybe it's the same with being child-like in this book: it can mean immature, sinful, unwise, etc. or it can mean innocent, trusting in reality/goodness, etc.

I think both senses of child-like ring true: maybe we are in some ways wiser as children, less rigid in our thinking, more open to possibilities, less afraid. But at the same time, we're probably more vulnerable to being ensnared by the kinds of vices and addictions Siddhartha falls prey to, because we don't see the harm in them. I wonder if he was right, that we need to experience them for ourselves to see how dissatisfactory they are and where they lead us. At the same time, that part almost sounded more like justification for the choices he had made. When reading it, I was wondering if the peace he was finding in those moments would turn out to be as illusory/temporary as that he'd found before becoming Kamala's pupil/lover and working with Kamaswami. I guess I was a bit suspicious on account of how far he'd let himself sink. I wondered if he'd use Vasudeva in his spiritual quest and leave him behind as well, like he'd left everyone else in his life.

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "... the Govinda chapter was also where I began to like it again too."

What resonated with you guys most about this final chapter? I think for me, it was either conversations with Vasudeva or reflections he was having during this time (I can't remember exactly) that stuck with me most. The idea that everything is as it must be, that it's ultimately good and couldn't be any other way. That we're all part of the wheel of samsara, that we will all suffer (and, in their view, attain wisdom, in another life if not this one), and there's nothing that can be done to hasten the process, ultimately. All the mistakes and struggles are a part of it. I think it's more challenging than ever to hold that view nowadays, in our world full of unnecessary and horrific suffering, exploitation, etc. - that this is all for good. Our times foster more of a nihilistic perspective, viewing the world as ultimately bad.

Kim wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "... the Govinda chapter was also where I began to like it again too."

What resonated with you guys most about this final chapter? I thi..."

I scanned the Govinda chapter again and what I liked the most was his admission of the teachers in his life, his understanding that things had to be the way they were, and his idea that concrete things (the river, the stone) bring more understanding than words. I think he seemed like he had evolved to more acceptance that he was nothing special--we are all on the same path and learn from all sorts of things.

I think this emphasis on concrete things might help us now when, like you say, the suffering and negative stuff is ever-apparent. It's like we have to see through it all. The river is still the river. Maybe that's why so many of us find comfort getting back to nature. :-)

Phil wrote: "Well, maybe I can help with that.
In the original German it says "Ich" which basically just means "I". Not in the sense of having an ego (as you are right he has!), but simply referring to the ind..."

I agree with everyone that he's arrogant, but I think they meant "ego" in the philosophical/psychoanalytical sense rather than the colloquial sense. That is, his sense of personal identity, not his sense of self-importance.

It's interesting how the end the story is being told from Govinda's perspective, too. He's the one that's still seeking, whereas Siddhartha has found what he was looking for.

Even though I think the book is describing what's happened to Siddhartha, and then perhaps at the end to Govinda, in a positive light, it's almost as though once people come to these sorts of realizations, there's no more story to tell, like they're dangling above life, or at least that's a common way of perceiving enlightenment (one of my favourite Buddhists, Pema Chodron, says that's not the right way to describe it). They can tell others' stories. Siddhartha could chronicle his son's struggles, for instance. But after Vasudeva leaves him, and he's meditating on the peace he's found, it's as though there's no more story for him to tell, and the narration switches over to Govinda's perspective, and if his final experience described is as transformative as what Siddhartha's been through, maybe his story finishes there, too.

Not sure where I'm going with this, just musing...

Really great observations everyone! They have sparked new ideas for me that have not yet solidified so... I will get back to you when and if they crystallize into a form that is even remotely interesting. It is such a great book for getting lost in musings. ;-)

I was given this book for my 20th birthday by a person who had not read it. He figured, "Phil likes books. I'll give him a book. This one has a Buddha on the cover. Far out, man." I read it and appreciated it. I think the timing was right.

One thing has always nagged my thoughts on this book, though. It tries really hard to be Eastern (Indian?), but it was written by some German dude who lived in Germany. I can handle Kipling writing about India while he lived there, but a German dude pretending to be East Asian felt a little like cheating. Can anyone give me perspective on this?

Also, I had no idea this thing was from the '20s. I would've bet on the late '50s.

Phil, I've been having a quick look at Hesse's connection to India. I think his Mother was born there and he had an interest in Eastern philosophy and Buddhism in his younger education. I believe he travelled throughout Asia looking for some sort of enlightenment, but didn't find it himself. Wikipedia had a bit about this and I found another article about his connection to India, but I didn't read through it myself. It sounds like he wanted the experience that he wrote about in Siddhartha.

Pink wrote: "It sounds like he wanted the experience that he wrote about in Siddhartha."

That's a positive way of thinking about it. Thanks for the research!

Phil wrote: "It tries really hard to be Eastern (Indian?), but it was written by some German dude who lived in Germany. I can handle Kipling writing about India while he lived there, but a German dude pretending to be East Asian felt a little like cheating. Can anyone give me perspective on this?"

I was perusing the reviews for the book on this site and some people were brutal in their assessments! Apparently, Hesse didn't understand half the concepts he was alluding to. These people didn't explain what he got wrong, though, so their reviews didn't strike me as being completely objective. Surely they could have given a couple of examples?

I certainly had the impression that I was seeing the world through the eyes of someone living in that time and setting. The book felt convincing to me, which maybe isn't saying much, though, considering I'm Canadian and have never traveled outside of my home country. Guess we should consult some people from the area and more knowledgeable about Hinduism and Buddhism to be sure!

Kim wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "... the Govinda chapter was also where I began to like it again too."

What resonated with you guys most about this final chapter? I thi..."
As regards the "Govinda" chapter (my favorite, also), I found several things to like about the book, but it was actually the "all things are ultimately good" aspect of Hesse's philosophy with which I disagreed the most.

In my translation, in the "Govinda" chapter, Siddhartha states, "A person or an action is never totally samsara or totally nirvana....," a statement I find compelling, yet ultimately not convincing. I agree much can be learned from suffering, yet there are many horrific and destructive acts in which I can find no goodness. Yet, in my interpretation of the book, Hesse seems to espouse that we should adopt a passive acceptance in the face of suffering, destruction, and adversity. Hesse and I will have to disagree on that point.

My favorite character was Vasudeva, who teaches Siddhartha the lesson about the difference between "seeking" as a way of living (goal-oriented striving) versus "finding" as a way of living (being open to the lessons and experiences of the present moment). Vasudeva's philosophy really seemed to crystallize in the "Govinda" chapter. Since we're all reading different translations, I'll quote the brief passage I'm referring to as it appears in my translation of the "Govinda" chapter:

"When someone seeks," Siddhartha said, "it is all too easy for his eyes to see nothing but the thing he seeks, so that he is unable to find anything or absorb anything because he is always thinking exclusively about what he seeks, because he has a goal, because he is obsessed by that goal. Seeking means having a goal. But finding means being free, remaining accessible, having no goal. You, venerable one, are perhaps really one who seeks, because, pressing after your goal, you fail to see many a thing that is right before your eyes."

Of course, these are Siddhartha's words to Govinda, but the idea came to Siddhartha when Vasudeva begged him to look deeply into the river to learn about how suffering is caused by seeking after goals. (A lesson, Hesse implies, which Vasudeva has already learned.) I could certainly relate that concept to my own life! I found Vasudeva helpful, humble, patient, wise, and gracious. To me, Vasudeva was the real hero of the story. I didn't really care for the book up until then, but started to enjoy it after the "Ferryman" chapter, when Vasudeva appeared on the scene. I wondered if he was a manifestation of the Buddha, who appeared when Siddhartha was finally ready to learn (after having experienced so much worldly suffering)? Just a thought. (And, I'm sorry to be so verbose.)

MMG wrote: "...Hesse seems to espouse that we should adopt a passive acceptance in the face of suffering, destruction, and adversity. Hesse and I will have to disagree on that point."

Agreed that this is how it comes across, and some would say that Buddhism itself is open to this kind of interpretation. I've always had an interest in Buddhism, but I think it can encourage this kind of attitude. My favourite Buddhist teacher, Pema Chodron, says this is the wrong way to look at it, that enlightenment isn't a kind of dangling above life and being untouched by the suffering of others, or just accepting it. We can and ought to still act to change things - I think even using force or violence, if done out of necessity and out of love/empathy for those one is defending, as opposed to hatred for the one we're attacking, can be seen as defensible from a Buddhist perspective. But yeah, this is obviously open for debate!

MMG wrote: "My favorite character was Vasudeva..."

I think he was mine, too, now that I think of it. I think I can personally relate to Siddhartha more, his failings, etc. but I liked Vasudeva the most.

MMG wrote: "... I'm sorry to be so verbose.

No need to apologize for that! Although bear in mind I'm the same way, so that could be why I don't mind. :)

I've only read a few articles by Pema Chodron, and I found them insightful. I enjoyed Chodron's ideas that you shared above, Kim, about acting to alleviate suffering. Her words ring true in terms of the other Buddhist writing I've read. The Buddhist friends I've known over the years have said the same thing, that a Buddhist's duty is to attempt to alleviate suffering. (Granted, not all Buddhists think the same, or speak with one voice.)

So, why does Hesse seems to advocate passivity? Is it because Hesse was misinterpreting Hinduism and Buddhism, like some critics have said? When I read Siddhartha, I wasn't reading it as a Buddhist text. In my copy, in the introduction, Stanley Appelbaum described Siddhartha as Hesse's story, Hesse's philosophy, but a story that included and relied on elements of Hinduism and Buddhism. So, because of Applebaum, that's the way I approached the text.

I wonder what Hesse's other books are like? (This is my first.) Phil raised an interesting point, about how Hesse was "trying really hard to be Eastern (Indian?)" in Siddhartha. Might I enjoy more a Hesse book in which he was writing from his own cultural perspective? Is my reaction to some of Siddhartha based on it seeming "inauthentic"? I don't know the answer to that question.

MMG wrote: "When I read Siddhartha, I wasn't reading it as a Buddhist text. In my copy, in the introduction, Stanley Appelbaum described Siddhartha as Hesse's story, Hesse's philosophy, but a story that included and relied on elements of Hinduism and Buddhism. So, because of Applebaum, that's the way I approached the text."

See, my copy had no introduction, and I've not read any works set in India by Indian authors, that I can think of, and so I wasn't reading it with that in mind. Some of the Goodreads reviews brought it up, though, with some being very critical of his interpretation of the religion.

MMG wrote: "I wonder what Hesse's other books are like? (This is my first.)"

Mine, too. Anyone else read any of his other work?

I'm enjoying this discussion more than I enjoyed the book. :-) I love Phil's comment: "This one has a Buddha on the cover. Far out, man." I remember lots of people thought that back when I first saw it, but none of us read it! I don't know what I was expecting; maybe a story version of Ram Dass' Be Here Now?

I agree with what Pink said. This does read as if written by someone who wanted the experience but didn't have it. I read a novel about the Buddha's wife (Buddha's Wife I think, but maybe an older one) that was better story-wise and still very thoughtful.

For wisdom though, it seems a better bet to go with Pema Chodron as Kim and MMG said, or my personal favorite Charlotte Joko Beck.

I'm curious too if anyone has recommendations about Hesse's other books? This one looks really intriguing: The Fairy Tales of Hermann Hesse.

Kim wrote: See, my copy had no introduction, ...

Yes, I was really glad my copy included an introduction and -- better yet! -- a glossary. I was worried that my Dover Thrift Edition might not measure up to other copies available ("thrift" sometimes having a negative connotation), but I thought Stanley Appelbaum's introduction did a nice job of providing a context for the text. I'll think better of Dover Thrift Editions in the future! ;) Others have described Hesse's writing as lyrical and poetic, and that's certainly how I found his writing style in Appelbaum's translation. While I may not wholly agree with Hesse's philosophy, I would love to read more of him. I liked his style.

Kathleen wrote: I love Phil's comment: "This one has a Buddha on the cover. Far out, man." I remember lots of people thought that back when I first saw it, but none of us read it! I don't know what I was expecting; maybe a story version of Ram Dass' Be Here Now?

Yes, thinking of Be Here Now, I'd read somewhere that Siddhartha was influential with spiritual seekers in the '60s in the same way that Be Here Now was.

I've read most of BHN, and I can see the connection between the two books, but I must say, I prefer Ram Dass to Hesse. Of course, Ram Dass' experience was completely different from Hesse's in that Ram Dass did find what he was looking for in India, and devoted his entire life afterward to the spiritual path he started on there. Like Pink said, Hesse didn't find what he sought in India.

What were your thoughts on Kamala and Hesse's characterization of women? Am I reading it correctly that she was a courtesan?

I haven't read anything else by him, but do have Steppenwolf on my shelf.

MMG wrote: "Kim wrote: See, my copy had no introduction, ...

Yes, I was really glad my copy included an introduction and -- better yet! -- a glossary. I was worried that my Dover Thrift Edition might not meas..."

I grew up on Dover Thrift editions. It was a great was to get lots of classics for cheap back before Project Gutenberg. Are they still 99 cents apiece?

Pink wrote: "I haven't read anything else by him, but do have Steppenwolf on my shelf."

At my former job, there was a table where folks would leave books free for the taking. One day, I happened upon a collection of Hesse books, and I took them all! (Very greedy of me, indeed.) Funny enough, Steppenwolf wasn't among the stack. Maybe the donor loved Steppenwolf too much to part with it? I would also like to read Steppenwolf, as that's the one I've heard referenced the most.

Phil wrote: "I grew up on Dover Thrift editions. It was a great was to get lots of classics for cheap back before Project Gutenberg. Are they still 99 cents apiece?"

Printed on the back of the copy I have is "$1.50 in USA." Not a bad price! However, I found it as a freebie (see the story above about the Free Books Table at my former job). It's served me well for this discussion. :)

Yes maybe they just loved Steppenwolf too much, let's hope that's a good omen! I'd be happy to buddy read it sometime.

Pink wrote: "Yes maybe they just loved Steppenwolf too much, let's hope that's a good omen! I'd be happy to buddy read it sometime."

A buddy read of Steppenwolf would be great! I'm game. My library system has several copies. Anyone else? I could read it in July, or any time after that.

My TBR for the summer/fall is pretty full at the moment, but there might be room to squeeze it in in August. No guarantees... It will in part depend on how things go at the polls, too, likely! But it does sound like an interesting book...

Maybe we could pencil it in for August? At least it looks like quite a short book, but maybe deceptively so!

Pink wrote: "Maybe we could pencil it in for August? At least it looks like quite a short book, but maybe deceptively so!"

August sounds good to me, but I'm happy to wait until autumn if that works better for others.

I don't mind either, it's been on my shelf for years! I'll make a note and ask again in a couple of months to see who's still interested and when everyone can fit it in!

250-some pages, yeah, that doesn't sound too bad, although like you say, maybe it takes time to digest, who knows? :) Adding it to my TBR for August/fall, with a question mark next to it.