Our Shared Shelf discussion

I enjoyed this read for many reasons, but I cherish this work because it is the first OSS pick that brings gender variant issues to the forefront of our discussions and it is a very personal, vulnerable look into Nelson's relationship with her fluidly gendered partner, Harry. I chose to create this thread because I hoped to build a space for people who relate to Nelson and share some to many of her experiences with a gender variant friend or family member.

My younger sister is transgender, and her lived experiences have impacted my lived experiences greatly. As she questioned and found her identity and transitioned into her fulfilled self, I could and can still feel the reverberations of this lifelong process within my own. I'd love to use this opportunity to connect with others who love, support, and learn from individuals like Harry and my sister in their own lives.

I'm really glad Emma selected this particular book, more importantly a book that focused on gender variant issues. Our gender variant loved ones have a questionable place in feminism for some feminists and I think it's fantastic that we're discussing this. I have friends that gender variant and gender fluid, I lived with a friend for over a year whose gender identity was very flexible for them and I know that they even question and are uncertain about if there's a place in feminism for them -- especially since some feminists still struggle with the idea that men are legitimately included in feminism and not because feminism sounds more "valid" if men benefit. I know my gender variant friends have taught me a lot about how constricting binary gender ideas are and even how harmful they can be for all of us.

Georgios wrote: "All right Due to lack of appropriate discussion threads I will post my personal views here...."

You might check this thread for discussion of whether gender is binary (tldr version: no) and how it relates to sexuality (tldr loosely).

Also, Georgios, as someone who attends an Evangelical church, I will tell you that many people think that sex is some kind of holy/pleasurable act between a married cishet man and woman, rather than just for reproduction. Otherwise there would be many more children born, and I wouldn't know couples who got married just so they can have sex. As an aromantic asexual agender person, this confuses me. I can also tell you that I was assigned female but many of my characteristics are "more male," and I feel dysphoria trying to fit into a specific gender. (For a long time I thought "well I must be a girl because I don't feel like a boy." But even thinking about "being a girl" makes me nauseous, light-headed, and sweaty. And I absolutely cannot even think about "being a woman.") Actually, I think that society's problem with gender and sexuality is that they view it as something pleasurable. Personally I see it just as something for reproduction but I'm aware people do it to build a relationship or something. The reason society has a "problem" is, I think, because so many people find it difficult to keep from assuming that everyone is oriented the same as them. My cishet parents still think lesbians "want to be boys." which doesn't make any sense at all, and since cishets seem to be the majority, they're bothered by those who are different. Personally, I've been accosted by most people's desire to have sex and a gender my entire life and am baffled by it, so since I know I'm out of the norm, I more easily accept others out of the "norm." I haven't read the book yet, but that's my story.

Just FYI for those reading this thread, you might want to do your own research into whether Georgios' depiction of history is accurate. From my point of view it isn't very. Although I do agree with you Georgios when you say its much longer and more complicated.

For one example you say "Homosexuality was also treated with no stigma especially among the Spartans" well.... sort of. To a greater or lesser degree in various Greek city states during the classical period (and indeed in ancient Rome as well) sex was seen as something which always took place between an inferior and a superior. One partner was supposed to dominate and the other to submit. The partner that submitted could not be an adult male citizen because that would be unacceptable, but could be any subordinate person including women, younger men, or enslaved persons. So under that system a sexual relationship between two men or women who were equals would not be acceptable. Our current concept of homosexual relationships would in fact not have been acceptable in Sparta.

To me its important not to oversimplify history because it leads to inaccurate ideas about the past and about cultural change.

Georgios wrote: "Now... what exactly is ovesimplified and inaccurate? ..."

It feels like you have taken offense. Also that you think I am somehow personally challenging you. Not what's happening. What I am suggesting is that people take what you are saying with a grain of salt, compare other sources and make up their own minds. I don't entirely agree with your points but I'm not saying they need to agree with me or with you but rather that they can make up their own minds. I don't think there's any need to take offense at that. I already pointed out one thing in your post that I thought was oversimplified and you agreed that what I said was true. I don't want to get into a big argument about the rest of it. My point was that history is a lot more complex and pulls in a lot more directions than will fit neatly into a single narrative.

This thread is getting a bit off topic. There are more appropriate threads for these kinds of debates in the Intersectionality folder.

Let's bring it back to the OP's intention for the thread: "I chose to create this thread because I hoped to build a space for people who relate to Nelson and share some to many of her experiences with a gender variant friend or family member."

This kind of debate makes it a less hospitable place for that kind of sharing, so I think we should respect Emily's wishes for the direction of the topic she started :)

Georgios, there are plenty of the threads for discussing these kinds of issues available in the Intersectionality thread. Also, members are more than welcome to create their own discussion threads.

The topic of this post is presented in the first post, and the conversation has gotten quite far away from that. Of course conversations are meant to evolve as they happen, but this thread is about sharing experiences, not debating the validity of those experiences, and since there are plenty of other threads that do leave room for debate, I'm asking that you please respect the OP's wishes and continue the discussion elsewhere.

Thank you, Katelyn! I'd really appreciate the space to connect with members regarding having gender variant family members and friends. Any and all members can create new discussions just like I did if they'd rather discuss other issues.

It really suprises me when feminists don't gender nonconforming people. To me, it seems like a world where feminism has prevailed wouldn't have anyone pigeonholed into any particular behavior based upon sex or gender. I have a friend that is gender nonconforming. It was easyfor me to adjust pronouns because I see him as in individual. The experience does highlight to me that it is much easier to understand and accept people when you treat them as individuals.

For those who are interested, here is a podcast telling the business story of a butch woman who designs clothing for butch women and trans men: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/the-r...

As a tomboy who loves the shit out of a good fiction book, I went into this wanting to love it, but had a really hard time until about half way through and then I couldn't put it down. I love the way she presented her pregnancy and Harry's surgery during their vacation. Iggy's birth coupled with Harry's mother's death is brilliant!! I was at the birthing as well as the deathbed. Can't wait to see what else she comes up with in the future.

Honestly, sometimes I thought of myself as a Bisexual person. At first I was very hesitant about that feeling because I'm thinking if that was a good feeling or not but when I turned college and my course is BS Psychology, that was the first time that I realized that there's nothing wrong with being a Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Transgender etc. and now I am part of some of the organizations in our school about the LGBT community and more on Feminism.

I remember I had a friend say: "I am glad gay rights are important to you." That was the first time that I considered that people think it's unique or brave it just seemed to me that it's just their basic human rights..

Emma, same as you all I want is to support them and it really gives me hope that this generation is on to something that's so liberated and healthy that it will make all of us look back in our youth and wonder why we couldn't figure it out.

As a member of the LGTBQI family, I really love that we can all connect as humans, no matter how we identity ourselves on the gender continuum. It's a real pleasure to read this. However, our reality isn't always as easy and as liberated as it may appear, and I'm sad to say that violence against our community is once again increasing. Me being a lesbian and my son being gay/gender queer makes it a daily reality that we are not always welcomed as "fully human". He holds on to his "female accessories" for when we are in the safety of our own home or within the LGBTQI community, just to avoid being called names or beaten for being who he is. Even though society is talking about trans people with much more ease, the gender-normative thinking is still very alive, and thinking outside of the binary system is all but standard. But with time, we will hopefully get there.