Into the Forest discussion

After some last minute voting, we have a winner for our YA group read.

The Cats of Tanglewood Forest by Charles de Lint

Post any spoilers here.

Read this a while back. I am sure I will have time to reread, as it is short & the illustrations in my book are marvelous.

I read this one a couple of years ago.

It's one of the few books by de Lint that I don't already own so this is a good excuse to buy a copy and re-read it.


I admit, there were a couple of things that bugged me about this book when I first read it.

First, Vess's decision to show all the Kickaha wearing buckskins and braids seemed a little stereotypical to me.

Granted, it was set in the '30s, (which I only noticed when we did the group read of Seven Wild Sisters and I noticed how old Lillian was and did some quick math). I'm not entirely sure what was being worn back then - so I might be wrong - but when I first saw Aunt Nancy in buckskins my first reaction was "Really, Vess? Really?!"


Second, adding the Anansi myth via Aunt Nancy seemed really out of place. Yes, she's half black, (which has its own issues), but Anansi really isn't a native american/first people character, and it seemed incongruent with the rest of the mythology.


And, on further contemplation - with it being set in the 1930s, that raises up even more issues... That's the era of forced boarding schools, and such, so it's a bit problematic to have the Kickaha helping out a white child while the children of their own tribe were being taken away from them and taught to act/dress "whiter".

I normally love Charles de Lint but several things about this one just rubbed me the wrong way. It was the first that I finished, then thought back and thought "Hm.. That was a little racist, wasn't it?"

Maybe I was in a bad mood when I read it?
Did these things bug any of you?

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. I think I was so impressed with the quality of the illustrations that I ignore a bit what they portrayed.

And Lilian is a wonderful, spunky young lady who learns that she has always been herself.

The illustrations are beautiful, I agree!
I love Vess's work. (Other than the occasional wardrobe choice.)

And the story is a fun one.

IF it hadn't have been for those few things that bugged me, I would have given it 4 stars too!

I agree that the illustrations of the First Nations in the book could be definitely be viewed as problematic by today's standards.
Yes, given Lianne was in her late 80s already in Seven Wild Sisters, and I believe even that book takes place in past, so I think Cats of Tanglewood may even take place before the 30s. Nevertheless there would have still been residential schools then.
I don't know to what extent De Lint had control about the illustrations, as authors often don't. I know that De Lint is concerned about cultural appropriation and has even admitted publicly that over the years with a growing awareness, he has revised many of his views on the subject:
http://blogcritics.org/cultural-appro...

I guess in regards to what you say Melanti about the First Nations characters helping a white child when their own children were being taken away, De Lints objective in a children's book was to depict the characters in a sympathetic way.

I actually enjoying finding Aunt Nancy in this book. She is also in Forests of the Heart
De Lint characteristically blend the myths of different cultures in his books.

Well, de Lint isn't the sort of author who you'd expect to talk about the residential schools. He's a pretty lightweight guy who generally writes "fun" books.

And this was originally a picture book aimed at a slightly younger audience so it wouldn't have been the right place/time anyway. Kind of a hard subject for a 1st/2nd grader.

If it hadn't have been for the other things, I wouldn't have thought twice about the issue.



As for cultural appropriation... if an author approaches another culture with respect, decent research (in whatever form it takes) and at least some degree of depth - I don't have an issue with it.


There's a retelling of Bluebeard that was set in the antebellum south and included a slavery/underground railroad sub-plot and a helpful (to the white main character) magical black woman living in the woods... To me, it was horribly disrespectful because the slavery sub plot was really only there to characterize the white characters. The girl was a wonderful person because she was an abolitionist. Bluebeard was really, truly evil because he was a slave holder. Now, THAT is what you don't want to do. People need to be people and they need to exist for their own sake - not just to assist or characterize the main characters. And that's generally what de Lint does. I've never had a true "WTF?" moment with him. (My concerns with this book are more like a raised eyebrow compared to tossing the book across the room.)

And I agree with him when he says not to censor authors on what subjects/cultures they write about. Really, with regards to that, I think the onus is on us, as readers, to buy/read from a diverse group of authors if we want real diversity in what we read. Which is the whole point behind the reading challenges that have a category for a PoC author - it's to call attention to who you're reading - not just what.


I really don't know why this stuff bugs me in this particular book but hasn't in the other books de Lint has written. Maybe it just started with Vess's wardrobe and snowballed from there?

I ought to re-read it just to see if I can figure out what the difference is.

Okay, so I do agree that it is mildly stereotyped. But I'm going to play devil's advocate.

The kickaha boys wear jean overalls in the illustrations. They do dress up in the buckskins for the funeral, and Aunt Nancy is in buckskins too. This didn't bother me that much--during that time, she probably would've been wearing buckskins.

I didn't make the connection with Anansi. Spider Woman is in a lot of NA tribal myths--Navajo, Hopi, I'm sure more--so when I read spider woman I associated it with those myths. (However, her name is Aunt Nancy, and he dd mention that she had African heritage, so he probably was making connection with Anansi. It's kind of confusing why he would do that, considering that there's a lot of spider NA myths.)

I do think it's suspect that the only people with 'magic' are people portrayed as NA--from Aunt Nancy to the possum woman, the possum woman mainly via illustration.

There's a great blog/story called The Last of the Granny Witches, about Appalachian 'witches,' that's kind of off the subject but it's cool so I'm going to share it:) : https://appalachianink.net/2015/09/06...

Where does Cats and Seven Wild Sisters take place? Anyone know the approximate location?

Margaret wrote: " Where does Cats and Seven Wild Sisters take place? Anyone know the approximate location "

Both books are part of the Newford series which is a fictitious city that could be either in the U.S. or Canada Going by the weather, it seems to me like the East Coast. Cats,Seven Wild Sisters and several other short stories take place in the Kickaha mountains, in the countryside outside of Newford. I imagine the Kickaha mountains being more like the Appalachians than the Rockies.

In regards to Aunt Nancy, I think De Lint deliberately mixed the mythology of two cultures. He often does that. For instance Forests of the Heart combines Irish and Mexican mythology, many of his novels combine Celtic and Native American.
The premise of many of his Newford novels is when the Europeans arrived to North America they ( unintentionally) brought with them many of the mythical beings from their own culture (like Faeries). These beings found there were already other mythological beings from First Nations cultures like the "Animal People". The same with the mythology of the Africans brought over to the New World.
The plots in some of his novels involve conflicts between the different magical groups, with the human story always being in the foreground.

Jalilah wrote: "Both books are part of the Newford series which is a fictitious city that could be either in the U.S. or Canada Going by the weather, it seems to me like the East Coast. Cats,Seven Wild series and several other short stories take place in the Kickaha mountains, in the countryside outside of Newford. I imagine the Kickaha mountains being more like the Appalachians than the Rockies.."

That makes sense. I remembered I imagined Memory and Dream taking place in sort of the Washington state/Canada region, but this one felt more like Appalachian Mts to me. However, I remember when I went to the Cascade mts in CA the people and small towns reminded me a lot of the Appalachians, so maybe it's just that mountain people and towns are pretty similar no matter where the mts are!

You're both right regarding De Lint often blending cultural myths. But, he often does so as a plot point, rather than just a stray character appearing out of nowhere. And, Margaret, you're right that buckskins were probably more common in the '20s/'30s, but when I first read it, I didn't realize that the book is set in that era. For both of these points, I really ought to re-read and see if it bothers meany less on the second read-through.

Margaret wrote: "Where does Cats and Seven Wild Sisters take place? Anyone know the approximate location? ..."

De Lint has said that the Kickaha are meant to be part of the Algonquin language family which still gives a lot of leeway.
But given that, the northern Appalachians are more likely than the Rockies. But he's really vague on purpose.

I've just read through all of the comments here...interesting points from everyone. My take on the book was, first, that it was not what I classify as Young Adult; more middle grade/children. I do think the author tried to cover too many bases in such a short...but important life lessons...work.

I wasn't too bothered with the Aunt Nancy character. I grew up in the 60s and 70s near the Onondaga reservation (Iroquois), and they had a school on the rez for grades up to either 7th or 9th grade (can't remember which). After that the kids from the rez were mainstreamed into our school (making up a third of our total class). Although the kids wore jeans/tee shirts off the rez, it was common to see traditional clothing while on the rez. My Biology teacher was one of the chiefs, and he only wore "white" clothes at our school...his wife refused to ever have her photo taken as she believed it would steal her Spirit.

The illustrations were stunning, and the color palette selection was very uplifting...not ominous dark shades, but hopeful. As far as characters; my favorite was the Apple Tree Man...so imaginative.

Monica wrote: " I grew up in the 60s and 70s near the Onondaga reservation (Iroquois), and they had a school on the rez for grades up to either 7th or 9th grade (can't remember which). After that the kids from the rez were mainstreamed into our school (making up a third of our total class). Although the kids wore jeans/tee shirts off the rez, it was common to see traditional clothing while on the rez. M "

That is interesting to know Monica! And given that this book takes place in an even earlier time, makes their clothes all the more likely.
Honestly it would have looked stranger and all the Kickaha characters been dressed only in European/North American clothing. The story has a very timeless mythical feel to it and I find the illustrations suit the story.

Jalilah wrote: "Honestly it would have looked stranger and all the Kickaha characters been dressed only in European/North American clothing..."

I agree. If that had been the case, I would have said: "Huh? Where's the cultural story?"

I'm re-reading this now and I noticed that what what de Lint says they were wearing was quite different.

De Lint says the men wore buckskin and denim and the women wore long, embroidered skirts.

IMO, that's both traditional and cultural, without the stereotypical feel that looking at Vess's version gives me. I'm still not a fan of that particular drawing.

Conceptually, I get what you guys are saying about buckskins being more common in the '30s, especially for a formal occasion like a funeral, but emotionally, when I look at it I think of old TV westerns and old tobacco ads - which is kind of silly, I admit, since most of the tobacco ads featured men in colorful headdresses, not buckskins. Maybe it's how plain they are? Not embroidered or decorated at all and thus very generic? I really don't know what my issue with it is, exactly.

I also think it's unfortunate that it's the first drawing which shows the Kickaha. Maybe if one or two of the others had been first, when I got to this drawing, I wouldn't have thought twice about it, beyond "Oh, they're being formal for the funeral."

But that scene is as far as I've gotten on the re-read so far. I'll see what I think of the rest of it as I go along.

Good points, Melanti. I'm still not sure how "old" Aunt Nancy is in the story. Didn't some character say that she looked the same "now" as in his grandfather's time? (Or is that a different book?) Was the artist's point to keep her looking as she may have been generations ago? (Just guessing, because it was confusing to me.)

Monica wrote: "As far as characters; my favorite was the Apple Tree Man...so imaginative. ."

If you haven't already read it, you will probably enjoy Seven Wild Sisters, which is the continuation of this story, many years in the future, and features the apple tree man more predominantly. I liked it better than Cats.

Oh, thanks Margaret! I've addedSeven Wild Sisters to my reading list.

Monica wrote: "Good points, Melanti. I'm still not sure how "old" Aunt Nancy is in the story. Didn't some character say that she looked the same "now" as in his grandfather's time? (Or is that a different book?) ..."

Yes, same now as in his grandfather's age - though I interpreted it as age rather than clothing though.

The picture that bugs me most (so far) is actually not any of them with just Aunt Nancy - it's the one of the funeral with the townsfolk gathered on the left and the Kickaha further back on the right.

Monica wrote: "Oh, thanks Margaret! I've addedSeven Wild Sisters to my reading list."

Yes! If you like the Apple Tree Man, definitely do that!

There's two versions. The Subterranean Press version (blue/purple cover) is the original version. It only has black and white drawings, but the text is geared towards YA.

The Little Brown version (Green cover) has been slightly edited to make it more suitable for a Middle Grade audience, but the drawings were colorized and a couple new ones added.

I like the artwork on the Little Brown version better, but there were a couple of lovely passages that got cut out. It's the same book, in spirit, though, and it should be the version that's easier to find.

Thanks, Melanti! I checked my library ebooks and they only have the Little Brown version. They describe it as a "full-color, illustrated companion novel to The Cats of Tanglewood Forest"...interesting.

We had it as a group read a couple of years ago. Once you're done reading it, there's a spoiler thread floating around here somewhere where we talked about the differences. I think I even copied over the one passage I most wished hadn't been cut out.

Thanks, Melanti. I'll look at that thread when I finish the book.

Margaret wrote: "Monica wrote: "already read it, you will probably enjoy Seven Wild Sisters, which is the continuation of this story, many years in the future, and features the apple tree man more predominantly. I liked it better than Cats.
"

I actually like Cats of Tanglewood much more than Seven Wild Sisters. I liked 7 Wild Sisters, but find Cats much more mythical and magical.
I love the time traveling in Cats. A number of De Lints short stories have science fiction/time traveling blended with fairy tales/myths.
I enjoy that combination!

Two of the other sisters ( the two musicians I can't remember their names) from 7 Wild Sisters have their own novella Medicine Road. It's also pretty good.
By the way, Cats of Tanglewood is based on A Circle of Cats, but the later is a very simple childrens picture book and not neatly as good.

Interesting, Jalilah...thanks!

Margaret wrote: "If you haven't already read it, you will probably enjoy Seven Wild Sisters, which is the continuation of this story, many years in the future, and features the apple tree man more predominantly. I liked it better than Cats."

Me, too, storywise; although, my affection for Cats is slightly higher simply because I witnessed a circle of cats once in 2008 or 2009 (I'd have to look at my journal) - at about 2am, under a street light at the intersection of four streets in our village - so when I read what inspired A Circle of Cats / The Cats of Tanglewood Forest, I immediately connected with the story.

Leah wrote: "Me, too, storywise; although, my affection for Cats is slightly higher simply because I witnessed a circle of cats once in 2008 or 2009 (I'd have to look at my journal) - at about 2am, under a street light at the intersection of four streets in our village - so when I read what inspired A Circle of Cats / The Cats of Tanglewood Forest, I immediately connected with the story. "

That's amazing.

Part of me wishes I would've grabbed my camera, but the other part remembers how mesmerized I was watching the six cats - slowly walk up to the intersection from all different directions, form a circle with each other right under that light, sit for about five minutes, then the biggest cat walked back down the street with the others walking behind in a straight line - and I'm glad I didn't break the spell just to capture it on film. Aside from seeing dolphins in the ocean, the circle of cats was the coolest animal encounter I've witnessed thus far in my life. :)

Leah wrote: "Part of me wishes I would've grabbed my camera, but the other part remembers how mesmerized I was watching the six cats - slowly walk up to the intersection from all different directions, form a ci..."

Sometimes, cameras make something magical like that mundane--you know what I mean?

Though I do take pics of some of my animals experiences--dolphins, a grizzly mom playing with 2 cubs (I was at a safe distance away).

Margaret wrote: "Sometimes, cameras make something magical like that mundane--you know what I mean? "

Exactly!

Leah wrote: "Part of me wishes I would've grabbed my camera, but the other part remembers how mesmerized I was watching the six cats - slowly walk up to the intersection from all different directions, form a ci..."

That is so amazing Leah!

I am currently re-reading and I am wondering if the term I used, " time traveling" is correct in describing how it's used in this story. First Liliane is almost killed by the snake and turned into a cat.
When the Bottle Witch says she can make this like it never happened , Liliane awakens as if from a dream only to find her aunt killed by the snake. And then we have the final outcome. Because I don't read science fiction I don't know if there are other more suitable terms for this..."alternate realities"?

Jalilah wrote: "I am currently re-reading and I am wondering if the term I used, " time traveling" is correct in describing how it's used in this story. First Liliane is almost killed by the snake and turned into ..."

They can be alternate realities or alternate continuities. It's based on the idea that every decision creates other continuities in which another decision was made that branch off from the decision point.

Shomeret wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "I am currently re-reading and I am wondering if the term I used, " time traveling" is correct in describing how it's used in this story. First Liliane is almost killed by the snake ..."

Thanks Shomeret! I think it this story alternate continuities is more accurate than time traveling, as the later makes me think if The Time Machine.
Offhand I can think of another short story De Lint wrote with alternate continuities That was Radio Clash. I really like this in stories when it's done well. In Cats it's a lot of what makes the story interesting.

This is a re-read for me and I must say I liked it just as much this time as last time, so I am keeping my 5 star rating. Normally I don't like De Lints YA or children's books nearly as much as his adult novels. However in this book the combination of the alternate continuities-time traveling, the characters and the beautiful illustrations really won my heart.

I can't remember if Liliane pays her debt to the Father of Cats in another short story or in Seven Wild Sisters. Or was it her nieces?

I don't remember the father of cats being in 7 wild sisters. However, it is implied that Lilian has had more run-ins with the fae and apple tree man.

Margaret wrote: "I don't remember the father of cats being in 7 wild sisters. However, it is implied that Lilian has had more run-ins with the fae and apple tree man."

The more I think about it, didn't her nieces somehow pay the debt?

Jalilah wrote: "The more I think about it, didn't her nieces somehow pay the debt? ."

I do remember they paid off a debt of Lilian's, I'm just confused because I don't remember any mention of the cat--rather, they paid it to the fae folk. But maybe that's what it refers to? I guess that's what I get for not reading the books in order!

I vaguely remember the kids paying off some sort of debt - but I don't remember if it was the debt to the father of cats or something else.


I finished re-reading this last week...
I still didn't like that one particular drawing, but the rest of it (Anansi, historical inaccuracies, etc) didn't bug me nearly as much this time around.

I have managed to acqiire a copy from the library. I have just opened the book. So far I have no opinion to offer.

Carole wrote: "I have managed to acqiire a copy from the library. I have just opened the book. So far I have no opinion to offer."
Let us know who you like it Carole!
Melanti wrote: "I vaguely remember the kids paying off some sort of debt - but I don't remember if it was the debt to the father of cats or something else.I finished re-reading this last week...
I still didn'..."

Yes I think the Dillard Sisters did in 7 Wild Sisters.

Margaret wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "The more I think about it, didn't her nieces somehow pay the debt? ."

I do remember they paid off a debt of Lilian's, I'm just confused because I don't remember any mention of the ..."

I did not read them in order either Margaret and that's why I'm confused!

I just found out there is one more short story with Liliane in it called "Somewhere in My Mind There is a Painting Box," which is in the collection Muse and Reverie as well as The Green Man: Tales from the Mythic Forest

Jalilah wrote: "I just found out there is one more short story with Liliane in it called "Somewhere in My Mind There is a Painting Box," which is in the collection Muse and Reverie as well as The Green Man: Tales from the Mythic Forest."

I've read The Green Man several years ago, but don't remember it! I own it, so I will be rereading that one.

I had never heard of Charles de Lint before this book was suggested. I read it and enjoyed it. The illustrations were lovely. I'd recommend it to YA readers. I added a couple other books (mentioned in this thread) to my list. Thanks for the ideas! I hope to read Bear Daughter next :)

Melanie wrote: "I hope to read Bear Daughter next :) "

Awesome! Here's the Bear Daughter thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Looking forward to your thoughts!

I finished "Cats" last weekend, and I'm sorry to say that I was a little disappointed. This was my first De Lint, and I thought the book was so beautiful (both the graphic design and the illustrations) that I really wanted to love it. But I only thought it was average.

Mostly, I was disappointed that there wasn't more focus on the actual cats -- I was surprised that Lillian spent such a short time in kitten form when I thought the whole book would be about her quest to get back. Instead, it ended up being a sort of "careful what you wish for" morality tale, and the "alternate reality" quest interested me less than the one I thought I was getting into. It didn't feel totally cohesive to me, particularly the whole section with the bear people. So Aunt Nancy really sent her there just so she could find a potion that would prompt her just to leave again, anyway? It just felt somewhat convoluted.

I didn't hate the book and I would definitely be open to reading something by De Lint again in the future -- I think he's got a nice storytelling style -- but for me the book just didn't live up to its promise.

Lacey, I thought the bright side of the lack of cohesion was that the story was unpredictable. And it mirrored the lack of order or expectations one might encounter in real life, where some things are not fully explained or planned out. Lillian just follows her path, and at some point the book ends. I thought it had a certain charm in its almost aimless meandering. Of course, my favorite books are more planned and structured probably. I just thought I'd share why this book worked for me, for a casual read.

Melanie wrote: "Lacey, I thought the bright side of the lack of cohesion was that the story was unpredictable. And it mirrored the lack of order or expectations one might encounter in real life, where some things ..."

Yes, the story was very unpredictable and I agree it's part if it's charm.

Lacey wrote: "I finished "Cats" last weekend, and I'm sorry to say that I was a little disappointed. This was my first De Lint, and I thought the book was so beautiful (both the graphic design and the illustrati..."

Lacey, I think even most De Lint fans agree that his adult novels and short stories are much stronger than his children's and young adult books. Cats of Tanglewood worked for me because of all the reasons I mentioned, but the illustrations made a difference.

Definitely give Someplace to Be Flying or Forests of the Heart a try! They are both part of Newford series but can be read without have read the other books because they have different characters. Some of Newford short stories are like Muse and Reverie and Moonlight and Vines are also wonderful.

Then again, not everyone likes De Lint.

I've only read 1 of his adult novels--Memory and Dream--and I found it to be quite different from the 2 MG novels I've read by him. It seemed more planned out and more intricate, but I kind of expect the less intricate characterization and plotting from MG. Some aren't like that, but a lot are.

I have a collection of de Lint's short stories on my Kindle, and my husband has Memory and Dream, so one of those is probably what I'll try next. It's been quite a while since I read a Middle Grade novel that I really loved -- they just don't seem to be doing it for me these days!

I've now finished The Cats of Tanglewood Forest
It seems to me that cultural appropriation applies to theft of a particular people's cultural practices, myths or spirituality. The Kickaha don't exist. I suspect that De Lint invented them specifically in order to avoid accusations of cultural appropriation. Anansi (who is called Aunt Nancy in South Carolina) and bottle trees are real parts of African/African Diasporic spirituality, and they are not as portrayed in De Lint's book. I thought that the use of the bottles in the bottle trees by De Lint was clever, but it was also cultural appropriation. So I'm ambivalent about it because I liked the way he integrated the bottles into the alternate continuity perspective. If I had a traditional bottle tree in my front yard, I might feel much more annoyed.