J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This thread is for all discussion of chapters 7 thru 12!

I finished reading ch. 7 & 8 last night. These are some of my favorites. I love the story about the making of the Silmarils in ch. 7—we again see Tolkien's love for trees—and the continuation of the Finwë/Fingolfin family saga.

Ch. 8 is a great narrative on Melkor's darkness, his cunning and deceit and how he fomented discord between the Valor and the Noldor. Ungoliant is a great dark character ... nice and creepy.

Agree with you about Ungoliant. She's very creepy, creepier than Shelob! And the description when she sucked the tree up is really dark.

As for Melkor, am I weird if I find that I admire him? :D I think he is really a badass antagonist. He can influence everyone that easily, though I have to say that it's partly because of Fëanor is a hot-headed (or is it hot-tempered?) too. I guess that's why he will have misfortune fate in his life.

Note: in Indonesian, there is no female/male called for third person (no she/he). So when I read my Indonesian edition I don't know whether Ungoliant is a she or he. I have to read my English edition. And now, I wonder if there is another giant spider in Middle-earth. And if there is, what sex is it? but if there isn't I'm curious about why Tolkien created all female spiders.

Ungoliant is a she. And so is her daughter -- Shelob, the 'last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world". Whom you may remember.

Yes, after I read my English edition of Silmarillion it's clearer that Ungoliant is a she, just like Shelob, the one I remember well from The Lord of the Ring. What I meant is whether there are another gigantic spiders aside Ungoliant and Shelob.

I didn't know that Shelob is Ungoliant's daughter, though. But now I remember that there are more spiders in The Hobbit. But I think they aren't like both Ungoliant and Shelob. At least I don't remember one of those spiders that attack Bilbo and the dwarves is gigantic like Ungoliant and Shelob.

Rachmi wrote: "And the description when she sucked the tree up is really dark..."

I agree the concept of sucking out all the light is really good.

Melkor is great because he's such an effective manipulator, sowing the seeds of discord and then melting into the background to watch the destruction unfold...

As for these female spiders, I found this at sciencedaily.com

Female spiders are voracious predators and consume a wide range of prey, which sometimes includes their mates. A number of hypotheses have been proposed for why females eat males before or after mating.

Maybe this is why Tolkien made his evil spiders female!

Rachmi wrote: "At least I don't remember one of those spiders that attack Bilbo and the dwarves is gigantic like Ungoliant and Shelob..."

I only vaguely remember those spiders at the moment ....

Oh, I love your picture of the two Silmarillion editions! I can see how having the Indonesian one makes all the difference. How did your book hunt go in Japan?

I didn't get LoTR nor The Hobbit in Japanese. Secondhand bookstores I went don't have it, some even don't understand what I was looking for. There is one chain-well-known secondhand bookstore that I wish I can find but they only have Fifty Shades of Grey edition LOL

I had great time in Jimbocho though i wished I can spend more time there because the experience itself was pretty amazing :D Btw, Jimbocho is a place in Tokyo that well-known for their secondhand bookstores.

I ended up buy Gone With The Wind English edition that was published in 1951 for less than USD 5, in good condition! How I love secondhand bookstore :)

Yes, Melkor is a great manipulator. I don't know why at first I only thought of him as evil antagonist, but not necessarily a great manipulator. So he is quite fascinating me :)

Now as I read, I guess I should know it from the beginning as Saruman is also a manipulator. It's just I see Melkor is better (as an antagonist) than Saruman.

I didn't know about female spiders! Thanks for letting me know. Now it makes sense and I more appreciate what Tolkien write in his story, as it based on the life of real female spiders. And now they creep me out LOL

Just realized we don't have any introduction thread! But anyway, I want you guys to meet my friend, Wita. She's Indonesian and a fan of Tolkien too. I 'met' her on Instagram because of Tolkien, obviously :D and have been discussing Silmarillion since then.

So Wita, please join our discussion whenever you can. You can reread it, or if you don't want to that's okay if you just jump up to the discussion every month. As you can see, there are three threads already. One for Preface, Ainulindalë and Valaquenta; the other one is for chapter 1 to chapter 6; and the last one (this thread) is for chapter 7 to chapter 12. You can join us in which ever thread/chapter you want.

Welcome and hope you have a great time here!

Hi Kak Rach! Thank you for introducing me to this group. I wouldn't do this without you ;) ...

Hi Everyone ... Nice to 'meet' you all :)
Silmarillion is my ultimate ME story of Tolkien books. I've finished reading the Sil and also Children of Hurin too. As I enjoyed reading the book, I would love to have a discussion with you guys. And I'll try to catch up your discussion one by one.

Ch. 7 : My favorite parts is about Feanor and Fingolfin. Their characters has began to show. And finally, there are some dialogues! Not much, but it feels so refreshing. The sibling rivalry, especially from Feanor's side is so tensed. You will find on next more chapters.

Ch. 8 : Yes, about Melkor .. I really feel you guys :) Despite of his ability to freely change shape, his appearance was described as beautiful and majestic, in a dark sort of way. He will captivate you, for sure!

And speaking about Melkor, there's an actor who feels kinda related to this character. It's Vin Diesel! When upon meeting Elijah Wood he apparently begged him to speak to Peter Jackson and IF a Sil movie was ever made he wants to be cast as Melkor. His love for the character is so strong that when required to get fake tattoo's for a movie he always ask for the named Melkor to be incorporate somewhere in his body. Have you guys ever heard about this?
Well, salute for Vin Diesel for reading Silmarillion! :)

Yes, chapter 7 is kinda intense. I'm a bit mad to Fëanor though. He's quite snob and in a way he 'let' Melkor do his evil. But I guess it makes him more interesting character. So no complaint here :D

Well I surely don't know about Vin Diesel loves TS. I only know Stephen Colbert being a big fan of Tolkien works and the guy who played the son of the Green Goblin in Spiderman, gosh I forgot his name :) Those are the only two I know love reading Tolkien books.

Fëanor was very temperamental and prideful which allowed Melkor to convince him that his brothers were jealous of him.

Here's scene of Feanor & Fingolfin in Ch. 7


"Get thee gone, and take thy due place!", by Jenny Dolfen

It's James Franco and he's on my cast list as Mablung ;)

Beautiful picture!

Thank you, Heidi. This scene has been illustrated by some artists. But Jenny Dolfen definitely is my favorite one!

It is really lovely. I love the forefront coloring:)

I haven't seen many illustrations of Tolkien works, but I think Jenny Dolfen is one of the well-known artists in Tolkien Society. As Heidi said her (watercolor?) coloring is amazing. No wonder she's your favorite, Wita :)

Okay, I finished chapters 9 & 10! Yay! Wow! Chapter 9 was just amazing. I don't even know where to begin, there is so much there.

1. Elegant twist. I thought Feanor's conflation of Melkor and the Vala as the same, i.e. entities who would take the Silmarils from him was really a great way to set up what came.

2. Imho, Tolkien's naming and renaming and multiple naming is both tedious and fabulous! I love: Morgoth: the Black Foe of the World:)

3. Using Feanor's grief over the death of his father, was another deft plot trajectory.

4. I love Ungoliant's noshing down on the gem stones, lol. "and she devoured them, and their beauty perished from the world", swoons over the poetry;)

5. Morgoth's anguished cries and the creation of Lammoth, more (beautiful) (chilling) dark poetry .

6. The end of Ungoliant ... she devoured herself ... Is Ungoliant a play on gluttony? Lol ...

7. But Morgroth did "save" the Silmarils from her insatiable appetite ... and the burning pain they cause his hands is great stuff ... and I also love "his majesty as one of the Valor long remained, though turned to terror, and before his face all but the mightiest sank into a dark pit of fear."

8. Now, Feanor's story, turns so dark, after losing his father and the Silmarils. (Is this the first mention of Middle-Earth in Silmarillion?) (This is when I wish I had the kindle edition so I could just do a search!) (Oh, have we seen the birth of Men?!?!?! Did I just forget that?)

9. Here is the second mentioning of the Galadriel who will play such a large part in LotR. I always try to note when we're introduced to the LotR characters.)

10. Feanor's betrayal of the Teleri, so dark, so sad. And then burning the boats! Now, whatever sympathy might have existed for his grief over his father is spent. It's interesting that after the revelation of the Prophecy of the North, and Doom of the Nolder"; he's like, well, it doesn't say we'll lack courage!

Whew! So much there! I thought it was really an amazing chapter.

Ch. 10. The dwarves :D

Weren't they asleep the last time we heard about them?!? Or is this just something else I forgot.

All in all, this chapter didn't wow me as much as chapter 9. It tells the backstory of the alliance and troubles between the elves and the dwarves ... how they alternately fought and won and fought and lost to the dark things birthed, encouraged, twisted by Morgoth ... ORCS!!!

I did appreciate the discussion of the dwarves' crafts that set the stage for Mithrael (sp?)

I liked Melian's "unseen wall of bewilderment and enchantment."

Is this the second Denethor? Or is this the same Denethor Rach and I discussed earlier?

Okay. Isn't the opening of TH movie taken from this chapter?

Okay, maybe more happens, is noteworthy in ch. 10 than I realized!

Whew! Again!

Next month's chapters are short. I think that's a good thing:D

Heidi wrote: "Okay, I finished chapters 9 & 10! Yay! Wow! Chapter 9 was just amazing. I don't even know where to begin, there is so much there.

1. Elegant twist. I thought Feanor's conflation of Melkor and the ..."

Chapter 9 is my favorite of Silmarillion so far! I cannot believe it took me a whole month to start it :P

To be honest, I'm not too fond of Feanor. He's stubborn, easily to persuade and somehow irresponsible he (most of the time) makes me angry, Lol. But he's a very interesting character I cannot help not to be intrigued by his story. And what story he has!

I'm so sad that he caused the civil war, yes he's grieving for his father death but he also causes so many deaths upon his kin. He's just...I'm not sure if I see him as a protagonist or antagonist. But I guess it's the beauty of his character (and the story and other characters in general). Tolkien makes his characters aren't as clear as black and white, even I find Melkor is awesome :D

I mostly read Silmarillion in Indonesian, so I don't quite get the beauty of the writing, mostly it's so dry because it's also written in Indonesian formal writing. It fits with English writing perfectly but in a way it loses the poetry kind of feeling, I think. BUT I got to learn new thing here! I never heard/knew about kinslaying before, in Indonesian edition it's translated into perang saudara (civil war). When I read it, I was curious I instantly open my English edition to look for it. I thought Tolkien will use civil war, though somehow I just knew that he will mostly not use the word. And I was right, he use kinslaying instead. So I check on my eDictionary, they don't have the word and so I googled it, voila! I get a new word now :D

Hah, Ungoliant is indeed play on gluttony! I cannot imagine she's so hungry he ate herself. It's just eww....

We've seen the birth of Men in previous chapters. I forgot which chapter but it was in earlier chapter. I think not long after it tells about how Eru makes elves as the First Children. I'm not sure about Middle-earth, though. I didn't think about it last night. I'll check about it later on my eBook (yes, I also have the eBook version :D in this time like this eBook comes in handy, Lol).

Okay, those are my thoughts about your thoughts :D I basically have similar thoughts with you. But there is one more thing I found in this chapter, it's about the life of the elves. Before Silmarillion I know that elves are immortal, sort of. They have a very long life, but somehow I never read more about it. I mean, from the movies I know that they can die when someone kill them but I don't think I never read about it in LOTR and The Hobbit. So it's a nice thing knowing that it is really written in the story. Hope you understand what I mean.

Heidi wrote: "Ch. 10. The dwarves :D

Weren't they asleep the last time we heard about them?!? Or is this just something else I forgot.

All in all, this chapter didn't wow me as much as chapter 9. It tells the ..."

That's the exact thing I questioned when I read about dwarves in chapter 10! I don't think we missed something, because we only got dwarves in the chapter when Aule created them. That's is, there is no dwarves until now.

And...it's the same Denethor we discussed before! Again, it's another thing that I questioned and I instantly check for it on my eBook :D

I'm not sure whether the opening of The Hobbit movie comes from this chapter, though. I mean if PJ got it from this chapter, he surely have to get its rights, right? while we know that Tolkien Estate is the one who still have The Silmarillion rights now. But then again, I forgot the opening of The Hobbit :D So I cannot say much about it, Lol.

Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 9 is my favorite of Silmarillion so far! I cannot believe it took me a whole month to start it :P

To be honest, I'm not too fond of Feanor. He's stubborn, easily to persuade and somehow irresponsible he (most of the time) makes me angry, Lol. But he's a very interesting character I cannot help not to be intrigued by his story. And what story he has! ."

Ditto:)

That's really interesting about the "civil war" vs. 'kinslaying". Kinslaying is so much darker:(

Okay, so I guess I forgot about the birth of men ... hehe. Oh well, they are here now:)

I really loved this chapter too. I think for me it's up with the Ainlindale and Valaquenta. If I remember correctly I liked those two very much as well.

Rachmi wrote: "That's the exact thing I questioned when I read about dwarves in chapter 10! I don't think we missed something, because we only got dwarves in the chapter when Aule created them. That's is, there is no dwarves until now.."

Okay, good to know:)

It's been years since I saw the first Hobbit movie now, but doesn't it open with the history of the dwarves and how they both fought and aligned with and had misunderstandings with the elves? Reading ch. 10 it just sounded like that history, which you're right, Rach that brings up the whole question of rights.

But I just don't remember all that history in the book The Hobbit. Unless it's told later and then the adaption just brought it to the beginning like was done with the LotR movie?

Well, at least we know this Denethor has been put to rest;) So hopefully we won't see another one until THE DENETHOR!

The history was not in The Hobbit. There are bits and pieces that sneak in, but not much. The films were trying to change the genre, make it like LOTR.

Notice that The Hobbit the place names are much less like to be normal names and more to be descriptions.

Hah, same with me. I watched The Hobbit 1 right after they were released and never watch it again. But if my memory is right, it opened with something like that, Heidi. I get why you think it sounds like chapter 10.

But I think Mary is also right, PJ most likely "created new story" he (and his team) added so many things we barely know what The Hobbit is all about.

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 9 is my favorite of Silmarillion so far! I cannot believe it took me a whole month to start it :P

To be honest, I'm not too fond of Feanor. He's stubborn, easily to persuad..."

Agree, knowing what kinslaying means now I can feel that it's so much darker and evil than just a civil war.

Ch. 10, I found two interesting things as follow:

1). the dwarves, their awakening. I felt the same thing with Heidi and kak Rach. I thought I missed somewhere in earlier chapter about dwarves but I didn't. So, I tried to find more 'explanation/story' about it...

The Awakening of the Dwarves

When Aule first made the dwarves, he made seven in total. Now, there are five different versions of the next part of this story, but they’re all basically the same: after making the seven dwarf fathers, Aule started making dwarf women - the theory being that each dwarf man would have a wife. But after making six, Aule got tired, and so the oldest dwarf, Durin, was left without a wife. So, when Iluvatar set the dwarves to sleep until the elves awoke, each was laid next to his wife, except for Durin, who was alone. (There’s actually another version in which Iluvatar made the dwarf wives, but since he didn’t want to alter Aule’s work too much, he made the dwarf women almost exactly the same as the dwarf men. But this version doesn’t account for why Durin didn’t have a wife…)

Now, in the published Silmarillion, the story is pretty simple: there were a few dwarves, Iluvatar scattered them across Middle Earth, and they woke up and established seven dwarf clans. We know that Durin’s clan was the Longbeards, and that he eventually established Moria. In the Blue Mountains were the Firebeards and Broadbeams. And somewhere to the east (most likely in the Orocarni Mountains) were the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots.

But one of Tolkien’s notes on an earlier draft adds these details about Durin: “He wandered widely after awakening: his people were Dwarves that joined him from other kindreds east and west." The note also mentions that other dwarves were laid to sleep along with the dwarf fathers (so, basically, more similar to the awakening of the elves, in which there were three original elves, who then discovered dozens more elves sleeping nearby. This would be significant in several ways. Not only does it answer how only thirteen dwarves were able to establish an entire civilization (with the inclusion of an unspecified number of other dwarves, such population growth is much more believable), but it also gives us an answer for where Durin’s wife came from - obviously, she must have been among those dwarves who started following Durin.

SOURCES: The Silmarillion, The Histories of Middle Earth vol. 11 ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion”), vol. 12 (“Of Dwarves and Men”)

2). the Girdle of Melian: When I read this part for the first time, I thought there will be some 'challenging' scenes between Melkor and Melian. Melkor, the most powerful of the Valar, can easily break the 'spell' Melian's Girdle at the first place and she's 'only' a Maiar. I don't know, since Melkor 'lives' in Middle-Earth, he just has that kind of 'fear' feeling by not facing his enemy straight way but only by his servants who will work to accomplish his plan. Compare to all the mess he's done in Valinor, e.g. murdering Finwe and took the Silmarills, the destruction of the Two Trees of Valinor with Ungoliant. Or perhaps it's just only one of his typical manipulation plans.

Wita, thank you for the back story of the dwarves. Maybe they should have hired you as editor for The Silmarillion:D It would have made a great addition to the chapter.

That's an excellent point about Melian and Melkor. It would have been cool if Melkor had tried to break it and it held;)

You'are welcome, Heidi... It wasn't my work. I've said before that I searched it aka Googling :)
And about the new folder, what's it all about? Can I add with some information like this dwarves story? As Goodreads tools setting is different and I use mobile device most of the time, I'm afraid I can't give what the folder wants, e.g. link. What should I do? Can I just do the manual like copy paste and mentioned the webpage source? Or is there a way do this stuff? Can you share it with me? I'm sorry, I'm so unfamiliar with this application :)

And about the new folder, what's it all about? Can I add with some information like this dwarves story?...

You can post the link there, but if you can't do it since you use mobile phone I think it's okay if you just write it down. You can add some information there, mainly a specific one (like your Dwarves story), I think. While the link is for the one who wants to know anything about Tolkien related.

Wita wrote: "Can I just do the manual like copy paste and mentioned the webpage source? Or is there a way do this stuff? Can you share it will me? I'm sorry, I'm so unfamiliar with this application :)..."

I agree with Rachmi, if you can copy and past things like the dwarf story with attribution (mentioning the source) that would be great. I don't use the mobile app, so I'm not familiar with it:(

If you have other links can you copy and paste those? But if you do that they don't work? Maybe Rachmi or I could repost them so they work?

The resources folder is to help the group gather a collection of stuff around the web that is Tolkien related that group members might enjoy and find interesting as we progress in our reading:)

Rachmi & Heidi,

Well noted & thank you. Will try to do as per your advice on next post :)

Chapter 11, I love the way Tolkien wrote about the movement of the moon and the sun. In a way it suits with the moon and the sun in our world. One question from this chapter, why do you think Tolkien use the antagonists from the most or one of the most powerful characters? well aside that that way they aren't easy to be defeated. Melkor is obviously one of the most powerful while Fëanor is not an antagonist like Melkor, I still think that he's an antagonist too, one way or the other.

Chapter 12, I thought I'll get more about men here, like the numenor and such but it's quite a short chapter. Maybe we'll get another explanation about men in next chapters? I wonder who are Dark Elves, though. I don't think I missed something, this is the first time I read about them but there's no description about them here in chapter 12.

Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 11, I love the way Tolkien wrote about the movement of the moon and the sun. In a way it suits with the moon and the sun in our world. One question from this chapter, why do you think Tolki..."

It is my opinion that Tolkien used the (seemingly) most powerful characters as antagonists to show that, no matter how small or weak or lowly a person might seem, they are capable of overcoming the greatest of evils. Good can overcome evil if just one person is willing to fight it. But it may have also been a matter of practicality. Those in positions of great wealth, might, and power have a greater opportunity to become evil because they have more resources that can be used for evil purposes.

On to the Dark Elves. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Dark Elves are the elves who never journeyed across the sea to Valinor and Aman in the first few chapters.( I am still getting caught up to the rest of the group and I think I just read this part.) They are called "dark" because they never saw the light of the two trees that lit Aman in those days.

Hope this helps.

Sydney wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 11, I love the way Tolkien wrote about the movement of the moon and the sun. In a way it suits with the moon and the sun in our world. One question from this chapter, why do ..."

I think so too! The powerful one definitely has more resources and opportunity to do evil things.

I think I missed that dark elves part. The problem with reading only two chapters a month is I often forget the detail of previous chapters. So I have to go back to them just to make it clear. Looks like I have to do it again with this dark elves :D

Thank you Sydney!

Sorry for being late on this one! I actually finished reading a couple nights ago and now I'm stumbling over Rachmi's first question! In my notes, I was more focused on Morgoth than Melkor ... what did Melkor do in this chapter? I read that the lights were to "hinder the deeds of Melkor" Did I miss something? Maybe I don't understand the question:(

But ... is Morgoth = Melkor? I'm thinking not, but I get confused when Tolkien has multiple names for a single entity. I understand the purpose, but as a reader I still get confused:)

My thoughts on Chapter 11, which was a real beauty imho.

"...the Valar sat long unmoved on their thrones ... For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than hands and without voices in silence they may hold council with one another. Thus they held vigil in the night ..."

I was like that is meditation! lol. The Valar meditated. What a beautiful expression of that kind of stillness.

I liked it that the trees didn't heal but that they yielded final fruits: the flower of silver and the single fruit of gold. Such poetry in creating the Sun and the Moon. That kind of stuff just makes me swoon.

More poetry: "But the Noldor named them also Rana, the Wayward, and Vasa, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the moon cherishes their memory.

So lovely, huh?

Arien is pretty awesome: "too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on"

Also love this reversal: "Evening, the time of the descent and resting of the Sun, was the hour of greatest light and joy in Aman."

Plus, cool that he included—and the way he wrote about—eclipses: "... at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is darkness amid day."

Also ... (I really loved this short chapter!) This passage is beautiful:
"But neither the sun or the moon can recall the light that was of old, that came from the Trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant. That lives in the Silmarils alone."

It shows how time and actions and events leave their marks, these things that are done cannot be undone ... and life keeps moving forward. Sigh:)

And I love how Morgoth lost power: "for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed."

Not sure if that circles back to Rachmi''s question and Sydney's answer:) Event the most powerful can diminish and ...Maybe that's why Tolkien makes his antagonists so powerful? To show they can be weakened, reduced, defeated ... ultimately by the smallest in LoTR. The contrast of the powerful being defeated by the humble and small is great story juice:)

So, chapter 12 felt like an introduction/summary for me. It kind of went back and forth chronologically? As it ends with "in the dawn of years Elves and Mens were friends" after it talks about how the mortals got entangled in Morgoth/Feanor/Simaril saga ... i.e. "they (the mortals) went down in ruin," and then provides an overview of the distinct biology of elves and men.

So the most interesting is ELROND! Is he half-mortal half-elf?

The Dark Elves: Chapter 3 (on my edition pp. 53-54) Tolkien breaks down all the elves, which I found very confusing and hard to keep up with at the time ...

Sydney is right!

"Those elves the Calaquendi call the Umanyar, since, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Unmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moraquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the light that was before the Sun and the Moon."

Whew! A lot for two such short chapters! I may be late in September's read too! August and this month have been/will be a bit taxing for me. But if I get behind I'll catch up!

Sydney, your breakdown of the Tolkien's good vs. evil is excellent!

Heidi wrote: "But ... is Morgoth = Melkor? I'm thinking not, ."

He is. Feanor renamed him.

Gosh. Stuff like that makes me feel so dumb, lol. Thanks, Mary, for straightening me out on that:)