The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I'm so excited that we are starting the Trollope Project! (Although I'm still missing Dickens...). Here is the order for the novels, and we will start "The Warden" on Sunday, June 5.

Chronicles of Barsetshire series:

The Warden
Barchester Towers
Doctor Thorne
Framley Parsonage
The Small House of Allington
The Last Chronicle of Barset

Palliser novels:

Can You Forgive Her?
Phineas Finn
The Eustace Diamonds
Phineas Redux
The Prime Minister
The Duke's Children

Then we can select a couple of his stand alone novels (for example, The Why We Live Now or He Knew He Was Right). We'll decide when we get there.

I'm hoping to read these with you. I have a beautiful set that's been calling to me for years.

I've read a few of his books, including the first three of the Barsetshire series. I just love his writing style, and love the way he draws his characters. I think (hope!) everyone is really going to like reading the novels.

Lynnm wrote: "I've read a few of his books, including the first three of the Barsetshire series. I just love his writing style, and love the way he draws his characters. I think (hope!) everyone is really going ..."

I've read several of his stand alone, and also love his writing and characters.

I'll be joining you. I read the Palliser novels many, many years ago and loved them then and look forward to a reread. I've read several stand alone novels, also loved them (even more than Dickens (gasp!))

I love the Barsetshire novels, but less so the Palliser (don't care for English politics). But overall I'm very fond of Trollope.

For those interested, there's an active Trollope discussion group on Yahoo Groups which has some very knowledgeable members about everything Trollope. You have to request to join, but as far as I know that's only to keep out trolls and spam. I've been a member for years, used to be active but not so much recently. You can find them at
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/t...

There's also the Trollope Society.
https://trollopesociety.org/

A good reference source for all things Trollope is Gerould's "A Guide to Trollope." It's out of print (except for a very expensive print-on-demand edition from the Princeton Legacy Library) but readily available second hand; there are plenty of copies on abebooks for a few dollars; I recommend the Trollope Society edition. It has brief comments on all the characters, places, etc. in the novels (each identifying the novel(s) that the character or place appears in), maps, summaries of all the novels, and some fun information like a list of all the doctors in all the novels, all alphabetically ordered so it's easy to look up who's who and where's where.

There's also the Oxford Reader's Companion to Trollope, which is much like Gerould but, being thicker, has somewhat more detail but I think isn't quite as entertainingly written as Gerould. As befits an Oxford publication it's more scholarly, but for reading pleasure I prefer Gerould (but they're cheap enough that one can have both and still not spend much).

I haven't dug much yet into Shirley Letwin's "The Gentlemen in Trollope," but will try to do so at some point during this Trollope extravaganza.

I don't have a biography of Trollope, so if anybody has read a good one people might appreciate hearing about it.

The only Trollope I've read before is The Warden, so I'm looking forward to this!

Have been meaning to read Trollope for ages and planned to start the Barset novels sometime this year. Then Renee told me of this group :0) Really looking forward to it.

Thanks Everyman for all the info. I'd seen the website but the two books you mention sound very interesting.

Everyman wrote: "I don't have a biography of Trollope, so if anybody has read a good one people might appreciate hearing about it...."

Have you explored his autobiography? It is supposedly good reading. I have only read reviews.

What I have found so far:
Anthony Trollope by Victoria Glendinning (1993)

"Glendinning, author of several biographies, presents a wonderful blend of Trollope's personal life and literary career within Victorian England's cultural and social climate. Trollope, one of the most prolific writers of the 19th century, had a miserable childhood, which greatly influenced his fiction. Glendinning's biography draws the reader deeper and deeper into the author's real and literary worlds. This is the fourth Trollope biography written by various scholars in recent years. Its most immediate predecessor, N. John Hall's Trollope: A Biography ( LJ 8/91), adopts the voice of an historical observer, whereas Glendinning is a storyteller who draws connections between Trollope's 'family dynamics' and his 'preoccupations as an author.' This work is highly recommended as a scholarly biography and an enjoyable story."
- Lois Cherepon, St. John's Univ. Lib., New York
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.

I haven't found the other two biographies. The four Amazon reader reviews of Glendinning's work are all five star and offer high praise.

Lily wrote: "Have you explored his autobiography? It is supposedly good reading. "

I have. To call it an autobiography is somewhat misleading. He does start out talking in his first chapter about his education, which he calls his "very prolonged school-days." Like Orwell, he has a very negative memory of his school days -- indeed, I have yet to read a record of any boy educated in the Victorian or post-Victorian public school system who didn't positively hate it. His next few chapters deal with his early post-school life. But most of the rest of the book is about his writing, about how much he got paid for each work, about criticism, about other writers, etc. There are some facts of his life at the post office slipped in, but the bulk of the book is really a writer's record.

Still, I haven't visited it in many years, so will have to add it to my reading pile for this Trollope extravaganza; fortunately there's no hurry, as this will go on for many months, and I can slip in any interesting tidbits I glean from the Autobiography as the months go on.

Lily wrote: "What I have found so far:
Anthony Trollope by Victoria Glendinning Anthony Trollope by Victoria Glendinning (1993)"

Thanks. I've ordered it on Interlibrary Loan.

I too am looking forward to this. I have read a few of his novels and wanted to get down to reading them as a series. This is a good chance to do that. Great idea and thank you in advance for all the work the moderators and discussion leaders will put into this.

One thing I did know about Trollope is that his mother, Frances known as Fanny, was a feminist and wrote 40 books herself.
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/f...

I have the Barsetshire Chronicles on audible.com so will be hearing along:) Although I read all of Trollope, one of my favourites, years ago, it will be interesting to see an American (and Canadian?) take on Victorian politics when we get to the Pallisers.

Apparently he has become fashionable again (Spoilers):

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201...

Fifteen years ago, before I retired, I lived quite close to Grandon, the house which Trollope shared with his mother and which has a plaque dedicated to her and her son. Appropriately enough it was then owned by a Conservative Minister. It recently sold for £4m.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand...

A little known novel of Trollope's which is pertinent today is The Fixed Period which postulates a time in the future (1980!) when there will be too many people in Britannia and therefore euthanasia should be introduced for the elderly after a 'fixed period' of 67.5 years. It reflected Trollope's own preoccupation with ageing and the effect it has on body and mind. I have some sympathy with his p.o.v. though perhaps 83.5 would be a better age and it should be a voluntary scheme.

Here is a critical piece on Trollope

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/co...

I really hope I am able to read along with this project. I decided I was a fan of Trollope's before I'd ever read him, because he was such a fan of Thackeray's, and seemed to understand (and at times emulate) Thackeray's breaches of novel etiquette. He also wrote a biography of Thackeray, which I have but haven't read. I've already read The Warden, so I will at least lurk during the discussion, and if I can recall it well enough, maybe participate.

I have to look for that biography of Thackeray. I like biography and I like Thackeray's novels, especially Pendennis.

Rosemarie wrote: "I have to look for that biography of Thackeray. I like biography and I like Thackeray's novels, especially Pendennis."

I haven't read The History of Pendennis: His Fortunes And Misfortunes, His Friends And His Greatest Enemy, but reviewers say it's his second best (Vanity Fair being the first), and that some characters from Vanity Fair show up again. I loved Vanity Fair, and now I've put Pendennis on my wish list.

I just have to say, I'm thoroughly enjoying the Trollope. It's been like a breath of fresh air for me.

I agree, Deborah. I love Mr. Harding, who plays an "air cello" when he is worried.

I love the air cello as well. So sweet, and I can picture it in my mind.

I've caught myself doing that with piano music I've been working on. Not especially connected with worrying though, I don't think, and certainly not particularly sweet in my case. ha

I'm enjoying the story too. I'm a chapter behind at the moment. Hope to read tonight after the supper hour is over. These summer days sure get away from me.

Deborah wrote: "I just have to say, I'm thoroughly enjoying the Trollope. It's been like a breath of fresh air for me."

Delighted to welcome you to the Trollope appreciators. I first read him over half a century ago and have never wavered in my enjoyment and appreciation of him. Though I recognize that some of his works aren't as strong as others, I've never read a Trollope that I didn't enjoy, just for different reasons.

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I just have to say, I'm thoroughly enjoying the Trollope. It's been like a breath of fresh air for me."

Delighted to welcome you to the Trollope appreciators. I first read him over..."

I've read him before and always have enjoyed him. A lot of my reading lately has felt like work. Ok, I'm a slightly burned out moderator :). I made a rare decision for me which gave me the opportunity of putting a book down. For some reason, even though I've enjoyed Trollope before, it was as if he returned me to the pleasure of the read. Perfect timing for me!

I know what you mean by a breath of fresh air. The characters in The Warden are such fun and I love their names.

Rosemarie wrote: "I know what you mean by a breath of fresh air. The characters in The Warden are such fun and I love their names."

I love the names too Rosemarie

FYI - I will post the reading schedule for the next Chronicles of Barsetshire series book, Barchester Towers, next Sunday. I thought we could start it on Sunday, July 10. That would give people who are behind on The Warden, a week to catch up.

That's great, Lynn. Thanks!

Thanks for the info.

Of the 4 books I've read in this series, Barchester Towers is my favorite.

Robin wrote: "Of the 4 books I've read in this series, Barchester Towers is my favorite."

It's certainly great. But then, so is The Small House at Allingham!

Though I have missed The Warden, I will try to join you all with the next novel of the series. I have not read anything of Trollope so far, and am really curious. I hope it will not matter too much that I missed the first novel.

My understanding is that it doesn't matter, that in fact Trollope had not intended to write them as a series. And you will have reading companions who can help with any clarifications required! Welcome aboard!

I don't think it will, Heidi. Because 1) they were written to stand alone 2) enough has changed between the books that there's a lot less connection. Some of the characters do make it across, so you may consider reading The Warden at some later point just to see from whence they came.

(Whence. That's such an odd word. I hate to end sentences with prepositions, but sometimes the alternative is just hilarious.)

Renee wrote: "(Whence. That's such an odd word. I hate to end sentences with prepositions, but sometimes the alternative is just hilarious.) "

...yet so appropriate for a Victorian reading club!

Frances wrote: "Renee wrote: "(Whence. That's such an odd word. I hate to end sentences with prepositions, but sometimes the alternative is just hilarious.) "

...yet so appropriate for a Victorian reading club!"

Yes, indeed. And thanks to both of you, Frances and Renee, for the clarification. The I am definitely inclined to join in. I have some more catching up to do with regards to Villette and even the Last Mohican, unfortunately. It is almost as unfinished business as the Mystery of Edwin Drood in my case. But I hope I will manage during the next weeks.

Hedi wrote: "Though I have missed The Warden, I will try to join you all with the next novel of the series. I have not read anything of Trollope so far, and am really curious. I hope it will not matter too much..."

Doesn't matter. There are a couple of characters that move into the next novel, but the situations move on into different issues.

Thanks, Lynnm! :-)

Regarding the word "whence" , my daughter loved to use the word "whilst" in her essays. She was taking Celtic Studies where many of faculty were from Ireland, so they didn't mind at all.

I adore older words, too; (and semicolons, evidently) getting to use such words is the main reason I write historical fiction instead of contemporary. I once came up with a whole scene so that I could use the word "declivity." Not to throw a damper, though, but "from whence" is actually redundant (because whence means "from where").

I have always liked hither, thither and yon. Much more descriptive than here, there and over there.

Rosemarie wrote: "I have always liked hither, thither and yon. Much more descriptive than here, there and over there."

Well, at least much more fluid to the sense of sound? Alliterative, perhaps is the (descriptive) word I seek?

In Emma, an annotated version (ed. by Bharat Tandon) points out words like dependence = conviction, unmarked = noncommittal (V1, C16), half and half state = half drunk, make love referred only to the chaste activities of courtship (v1, C15) and a large number of other shifts in word usage. It must be quite an intellectual and research challenge in writing "authentic" historical fiction, especially dialogue?

It absolutely is a challenge, Lily, and generally unrewarded. The majority of readers today seem to prefer a hybrid language, with a few period elements but not the full-on style of an earlier era. Of course, it matters a lot what era you're writing about--Austen's era is one thing, even Shakespeare's, but can you imagine writing authentically about Rome, with all the verbs at the end? Gaak! I strive for pure Georgian prose in my fiction (I read the Parliamentary record for 1800 to get me in the mood), but am aware that it turns off a lot of readers.

Abigail wrote: "It absolutely is a challenge, Lily, and generally unrewarded. The majority of readers today seem to prefer a hybrid language, with a few period elements but not the full-on style of an earlier era...."

Abigail -- this is off topic for this thread, but I'd love to hear your reaction on this topic re: the writing of Hilary Mantel. Move to another thread or send me a post if you think too irrelevant here?

Feel free to continue here. Digressing is never a problem when it is about literature or language. Now, if you were discussing politics - unless it was 19th century politics that related to Trollope - that would be another story. ;)

I went to a used book store yesterday and found three of the books I need for the Trollope project. Now I don't have to worry about overdue fines. The copy of Barchester Towers also had The Warden in it. My goal is to get all of them second hand.
In regards to language in historical fiction, it is difficult to get a fine balance. A really good writer will use older language in such a natural manner that a reader doesn't notice. I can't think of any books right now that are like that, but maybe someone else can. It is a lot like the use of local dialects. It can ruin a book if not done properly.

Hi, Lily, I have to confess to not having read much Hilary Mantel. I got some way into A Place of Greater Safety some while back, but didn't like the way the story jumped around and never finished. I never read the ones set in the time of Henry VIII.

What I do like as a model is Treasure Island. Stevenson doesn't hold back with the technical terminology and the sailor slang, and whole paragraphs were pretty mysterious to me but I didn't mind! Somehow the impenetrable bits made the story more exotic and exciting. I reread it several months ago and was blown away by his self-confidence.

Abigail wrote: "Hi, Lily, I have to confess to not having read much Hilary Mantel. I got some way into A Place of Greater Safety some while back, but didn't like the way the story jumped around and never finished...."

Thanks for your reply and example of Treasure Island.

I must admit I have never consciously given much thought to language anachronisms, so this discussion has opened a new awareness for me. I've largely only noticed when a dialect or word usage has interfered with understanding.

Everyman wrote: "A good reference source for all things Trollope is Gerould's "A Guide to Trollope." ..."There's also the Oxford Reader's Companion to Trollope, which is much like Gerould but, being thicker, has somewhat more detail but I think isn't quite as entertainingly written as Gerould."
And, "I don't have a biography of Trollope, so if anybody has read a good one people might appreciate hearing about it."

Lily wrote: "I haven't found the other two biographies. The four Amazon reader reviews of Glendinning's work are all five star and offer high praise."

I have another companion: The Penguin Companion to Trollope
I don't know how it compares to the others, but I have found it a helpful resource for all of Trollope's references to contemporary people, places, and events. There are also some interesting shorter articles on topics and themes that he covers in his books.

The author of this reference, Richard Mullen, is also one of the four biographers of the 1990s. Anthony Trollope: A Victorian in His World If I can recall the fourth, I'll post it later.

Brigette wrote: "If I can recall the fourth, I'll post it later. ..."

Still haven't found it, but did encounter this 572 page book of critical sources on Trollope. On a project of this length, might be worth seeking out a copy at some point.

Anthony Trollope: The Critical Heritage by Donald Smalley

I haven't tried to find it and it may be difficult outside university resources. It is far too expensive (at least on Amazon) to want to obtain personally -- at least for most of us. Two resources that should be capable of being found elsewhere are Henry James's comments (both while Trollope was alive and after his death) and a letter by Nathanial Hawthorne. Some bits are in the Wiki entry for Trollope, including, in the current rendition, note 54 quoting Nathanial Hawthorne.

I haven't been able to find anything about Donald Smalley, the editor, other than the considerable number of similar books he edited.