Sci-Fi, fantasy and speculative Indie Authors Review discussion

Welcome to our first book club. We will be reading Ken Doggett's Ship of Storms.

This thread is for discussions along the way -please try not to spoilify people who are behind you in the book, or at the very least mark off the passage with a spoiler alert.

We're all friendly, reasonable and (if you're anything like me when it comes to books) opinionated people. Lets show respect even as we discuss the book please!

Similarly, the author (of any future book that is chosen also) is requested to try and participate with queries and the discussion, without giving anything away. It can be hard to separate yourself from your work; a criticism levelled or perceived to be levelled at your book, can feel like a criticism of you. (Now as I will be stomping pretty darn hard on anyone who does act in this way, if I haven't squashed a comment, it's because it probably isn't generally offensive.) I'm sure we won't have any problems here but authors are just as responsible for their responses as readers are.

And that's the note of caution.

Now let's get this show on the road :)

Ken, if you would like to say a few words before we all begin, the floor is yours ;)


(Oh and readers, please leave reviews when you've read the book - one day it might be your book we're reading and a bit of book karma never goes amiss!)

Thank you, J.A. for kicking this off, and special thanks to those who voted for my book. I'm eager to participate as much as possible, and I'll try to answer any questions that I can. I understand that this may not be everyone's first choice, or the type of book that you like to read, so feel free to hurt my feelings, or even to sit this one out and wait for something you like; I'll get over it. All I can ask for is fairness, and from what I've seen of the members in this group, fairness is what I'll get. Although another group voted this one (among many others) as worthy of review based on just the opening chapters, any reviews you offer will be the first full reviews for this book. Thanks again, and I hope you enjoy the book.

I noticed that there are 4 editions. Are there any differences in the Kindle versions?

There are actually 5 editions, all having to do with cover changes. The Kindle edition was first, and then when I added the paperback version I didn't like the way the cover looked on the proof, so I changed the cover for the final version, and added the new cover to the Kindle edition as well. According to Goodreads, that's 3 editions. I changed the cover for both again a couple of months ago, and that brought it to 5 editions. The Kindle edition and the paperback are identical.

Right, well I've started and I have to say Im intrigued so far. Hectic couple of days so haven't read at my normal pace. I should rectify that tomorrow though since I have a ten hour plane journey. Looking forward to getting properly stuck in .

How's everyone else doing?

Ken wrote: "There are actually 5 editions, all having to do with cover changes. The Kindle edition was first, and then when I added the paperback version I didn't like the way the cover looked on the proof, s..."

Roger Roger.

I've started on this too now, though I'm only a couple of chapters in. Interesting set up so far. I admit the idea of space opera set within the bounds of the solar system interests me, as people tend to forget the distances and challenges involved are massive - you'd sometimes be forgiven for thinking the entire system is just Earth's backyard, when we've only ever got a handful of people out of the planet's gravity well.

Anyway, I've never participated in a group read before and I'm not really sure of the form, so I'll try to avoid commenting specifically until I've picked up how it's done.

So anyone else made a start?

Well I'm a few chapters in. I'm now wondering if I left the the length of time too open - maybe I should have made it a month.

Also, perhaps I haven't made this thread easy enough to find :/

I would suggest two books a month, maybe more. This would give one book for SF and one for Fantasy, and you could add more categories as needed. Zombie books? And leave the thread open for a couple of months on each book for comment, as long as there are no spoilers.

Some good suggestions Ken. If people are keen Im happy to do that. Bit of a learning curve all round. :)

I'm 80 pps into the paperback edition.

Doing two or three books concurrently might encourage a few more people to join in too.

Is this book on sale for Kobo? If so, can someone link it for me? (Cause my search didn't come up with anything...)

It's only on Amazon and Createspace (paperback only) for now. Next month it'll be uploaded to Smashwords for distribution to Kobo and the rest. Also, for Amazon Prime members, it can be borrowed this month for free.

Okay, I shall be patient and will wait for the Kobo release then.

If you click on my name it'll take you to my author's page, and there you can find my website. I'll make the announcement there, as well as on Goodreads.

I friended you as well, I figure then I've got all my bases covered for the Kobo release. Until then, no spoilers anyone! Heh heh

Gah! I shall have to talk in code... ;)

Hitman Actual, Hitman 2-2, solid copy

Seriously, I believe there are spoiler tags we can use.

Ken, did you have any discussion questions you wanted us to consider? Sorry if I've missed those

Matthew wrote: "Seriously, I believe there are spoiler tags we can use.

Ken, did you have any discussion questions you wanted us to consider? Sorry if I've missed those"

None that I can think of. I know Richard has the paperback version and I'm wondering how the cover on that one looks. All of my copies have the old cover, and I haven't ordered any more since I changed to the new one.

The cover is okay: both the lettering and background image are slightly unfocussed and/or pixellated front and back (I'm guessing it was done on a PC?), the exception being the title and author name on the spine which are nice and sharp; the colours are fine. Inside, it's all printed in the rather large typeface (and huge headings) which Amazon-CreateSpace seem to like (but which to my mind make them look a bit like children's books). The printing itself is top class though, consistently sharp as a tack throughout. It's quite large for a paperback: 9" x 6", or slightly bigger than a Demy.

While we're reading it, Ken, perhaps you could fill in a few background details: how it evolved from short story to novel for instance, how long it took to write and whether you self-published it directly or tried a few mainstream publishers first?

I was working on this story for years, and wrote it in the form of serial novelettes. After getting the first published I decided to send it to a few book publishers. The first one kept it 2 1/2 years and returned it, saying it was well-written, but reads like an established writer's second novel, not his first (I had been writing and publishing short stories for years). The second publisher kept it 6 months, and said pretty much the same thing. I put it away for a few years, and when I picked it up again recently I spotted quite a few of the faults, and realized it needed a great deal more work. I went over it pretty thoroughly for several months, and when I finished I decided that I didn't want to wait years more for it to be published, so I self published. Ebooks weren't an option when I last worked on it, but now I couldn't pass up the chance to get it out there. I recently submitted it to a publishing house and, of course, they promised to respond in 9 months to a year. Whatever the outcome, I'm pretty satisfied with being an independent self-published author.

I have started.

Interesting to hear some of the background to the novel, which I've finished, by the way. It actually didn't surprise me to hear that it was written in parts, as to me it felt quite episodic in some respects. I don't mean that in a bad way at all - some of the finest novels have this feel, not least Ulysses. And in the 19th century, writing novels in serial form was the norm.

I have to say I started enjoying it most from about the halfway point through to the end. Don't want to say too much for fear of spoilers. Also refreshing to read a standalone novel in this era of series and trilogies.

Matthew wrote: "Interesting to hear some of the background to the novel, which I've finished, by the way. It actually didn't surprise me to hear that it was written in parts, as to me it felt quite episodic in som...Also refreshing to read a standalone novel in this era of series and trilogies..."
I didn't want it to appear episodic, but life itself is episodic, and I had hoped that I blended it as well as possible under the arc of the main story. By the way, the designation of Parts I thru IV had nothing to do with the way I wrote it; I just wanted named parts that could fit in and help the flow of the book.

A sequel to this story is something that I have given some thought to since the book was finished, but so far nothing worthy of a sequel to this story has come to me. And currently I'm working on my second novel, which has a far different story.

Totally jealous... just fyi. :P

Here's a topic for debate:
I've seen many authors epublish short stories, or novellas, and make them a series that, in total, comprise a book. I don't know how successful they are. Do you think this book could have been better presented in that way? Or would the arc of the main story present problems in that format? It could be presented in a time-linear fashion, as I once hoped to do, but the middle story might be a problem unless it ended in a cliff-hanger--which I hate, because you pay for a story and only get part of it.

Interesting thought Ken. I've read some superb 'portmanteau' novels, and as a form it seems to lend itself to SF - Vacuum Diagrams by Stephen Baxter and Pavane by Keith Roberts are two I particularly enjoyed. Baxter's 'Evolution' is arguably a similar concept. So could this have been done in the same way?

(view spoiler)[My initial thought is that it wouldn't add anything. The story is largely a single narrative covering the arc of one character, with another secondary-main character, so my first thought was that it wouldn't feel too different. However, on thinking about it - and I'm not saying this would necessarily be better, just different - another way of doing it might be to present the narrative as sections from a single timeline without the flashbacks. There are three/four distinct time periods covered (and I presume this was how it was written?) and each could work in its own right. Maybe not in time-linear fashion - it struck me that you could go 1, 3, 2 with 3 ending at the detour to Jupiter, and a coda on the return to Mars. Even 3,2,1 might be possible, and really satisfying if you can pull a backwards timeline off. Ever seen or read Harold Pinter's 'Betrayal'? Blew my mind the first time I read it.

Part of the reason the idea of separate but connected narratives appeals to me is because some of the ideas were set up and left while we went on to look at other things. That was fine - my impatience to follow things up may be the problem there. The other thing for me was that you are very brave with your portrayal of the main characters - it took a long time before I knew enough about MRL for me to really care about him. I did, and I found I got a lot more into the story when we got to Lakeland. It might help to see a bit more of what drives MRL a bit earlier.

Anyway, having blown my cover now, I'll add that I enjoyed the novel and found the world-building to have been really well realised through character-in-action. I was almost disappointed that we didn't get a full-on shooting war but by then I was absorbed by MRL's personal arc! Thanks for putting the novel forward.
(hide spoiler)]

I saw it as three novellas. The first might have sold well, and the second also, but my fear is that the third wouldn't sell at all because readers might be disappointed by the second one. It's possible that they would find the middle novella not compelling enough, ending as it would have to--in a cliff-hanger. It's my belief that it works much better as a whole book, with the third novella being the main plot line of the book.

Ken wrote: "I saw it as three novellas. The first might have sold well, and the second also, but my fear is that the third wouldn't sell at all because readers might be disappointed by the second one. It's p..."

Probably right Ken. After all, you've lived with it for a number of years and had that time to figure out the permutations. I do think it works as it is, but I found it interesting to think about the portmanteau option.

For those with an account at Smashwords, the book is now available there. It's under review for inclusion in the special catalog for distribution to Kobo, Barnes & Noble, and others, but I'm told this can take a week or longer. I'll update as soon as I know.

To update, Ship of Storms has qualified for Smashword's premium catalog, and in addition to Amazon.com will be distributed and available for sale at the following: Sony, Barnes & Noble , Kobo, Apple, Diesel, Page Foundry, Baker & Taylor Blio, txtr, Library Direct, Baker-Taylor Axis360, OverDrive, Flipkart, Oyster, and Scribd. I don't know if it'll take a day or a few days to appear on those websites, but it should be there soon.

Awesome! I'll keep my eye out for it!

Good Job Ken. I found it interesting. I had my son read your book also, so that we could talk about it. I won't give any spoilers, but I agree with some of the comments above. Overall we both liked it. I'd be interested in the follow up. Keep me posted.

Ken do you mind if I ask a few questions about the background, which I hope won't be too spoilerific? Did you have any particular historical conflicts in mind when creating the Mars/Earth standoff, such as the American Revolutionary War or the War of 1812? There seemed to be some parallels coming across as I read the novel.

Matthew wrote: "Ken do you mind if I ask a few questions about the background, which I hope won't be too spoilerific? Did you have any particular historical conflicts in mind when creating the Mars/Earth standoff,..."
I don't recall having any specific conflict in mind. I've always been interested in history, and so I'm aware of a great many details of the world's major wars. For major wars, I find WWI to be the least interesting (mostly static trench warfare with a few innovations, like aircraft and tanks), and WWII to be the most interesting (America went from being a backwater power with a small military to a superpower with nukes). Knowing how politics can steer problems in the wrong direction in a democracy, I considered the logistics of the situation, and the problems that might develop with a remote colony, throwing in a huge psychological problem caused by (?), and reasoned how it might play out in real life.

Thanks. As an aside, I find WW1 interesting geopolitically, and because it could be argued that the static nature of the Western Front turned a typical 19th century European war into a global conflict and thus created the modern world. (Essentially, the two sides could no longer outflank each other on the main front so tried to in different theatres instead)... But anyway...

I was primarily thinking of the small but agile colony adapting a style of warfare that allowed it to compete with a much larger and better resourced power. Throwing in the psychological difficulties identified, the scenario certainly seems plausible to me. Politics certainly doesn't seem to have served the people of these worlds well, at any level of society.

I think those two world wars can be considered essentially the same war, with a resting period in between. In fact, I think most historians would agree to that. It was fought by different generations (with some overlap), but while WWI was a learning experience, WWII was a war of technology. I think that's what I find most interesting about the second world war. And a lot of classic Science Fiction stories revolved around that same theme.

It's true. It interests me that most of the preceding 'modern' wars (Russo-Japanese War, First Sino-Japanese War, Sino-French War, Franco-Prussian War) fought with comparable technology to WW1 (modern artillery, rifles and machine guns employed by professional, trained soldiers, armoured steam warships with rifled artillery etc) were over relatively quickly. So I think it must have come as a huge shock to the collective system when WW1 became a continent-sized stalemate, and kept sucking more and more of the world in.

The European part of WW2 was certainly round two of WW1 in many respects, but the Pacific war? I'm not sure Japanese and American expansionism wouldn't have collided at some stage, with the remnants of Dutch and British empires caught up, so I don't know how well that fits the theory... But this is getting a bit off topic now, so I'll apologise and stage a tactical withdrawal

I've read the prologue, now. It has taken me a month and a half to get around to that, so adding more books in the time won't work for me, not unless my new job magically has less work attached to it. Can't really see that happening!
In any case, I am also getting American Revolution vibes. Also, Baylon 5 vibes, but that series has always been close to my heart and I am reminded of it often.

I'm not that familiar with Babylon 5--though I seem to recall that it was a Star Trek spinoff? And although I'm very familiar with the American Revolution, I can't say that I had it foremost in my mind when I came up with the story. I just think that the politics and the situation might very well play out that way--especially when a very big problem is added into the mix.

DS9 was a Star Trek series. B5 was separate. Space Stations were clearly popular that decade. Anything which mentions Mars/or breaking away from Earth brings it to mind, as both are major plot points.
They had a few episodes which played with the media treatment of the issue, so you can see why it sparked an echo (I know - mix of metaphors there) in my mind.

Maybe I should have watched it. The idea came to me back in the 1980s, but I think it's probably an old idea in Science Fiction. I developed what I thought was a variation on it in the early 1990s from a short story I was able to get published in 1987. I wrote a continuation of the story with a second short story (I called them novellas), but I stopped writing for a long time and never fully completed it until recently.

There are no new stories, are there? But your twist on it will be unique and I will have more to say on that once I have read more than the prologue and the first few pages. I just wanted to get in and make some comment to be joining in.
Have we come up with some way to let people start talking about possible spoilers? My rambling about B5 is partly because I don't know what we are able to talk about when people have not finished reading it. I am happy to be spoiled and still read the book, but I read books the plots of which I know in advance rather often in Literature classes. Not sure how the group as a whole feels about it.

I think if you just write *SPOILER ALERT* as a paragraph of its own and then go on to talk about what you want to. It's up to whoever reads the post whether they read on at that point.

I really stopped watching Star Trek TV shows after the original ended and they came up with The Next Generation. I thought the first shows of that series were pretty bad, and stopped watching anything Star Trek. Later I saw The Next Generation in reruns, and watched because I was curious about it after hearing about "The Borg." Now I'm a fan, and like it better than the original--especially the movies.

They basically should have had a rule where the Great Bird of the Galaxy was allowed to come up with the vision and the concept and then be told, gently but firmly, to back away from the scripts.
I will go with giant SPOILER ALERT, then, once I have read enough to need to.

You can use spoiler tags, by the way. Just put the word spoiler inside < > brackets before any section with spoilers and the same tag but with / after the < . (I can't write out the full tag here or it will activte the code and won't demonstrate how to write it. You then have to click on the 'spoiler' text to open it. It's much simpler than it sounds describing it.

TNG was pretty ropey early on, though I've heard it got better. The problem was endless 'character development' episodes when all the characters were dull as ditchwater, while TOS used character-in-action to set all that out and actually had plot. And characters.

I understand Gene Roddenberry strongly objected to the premise of Star Trek VI, but was overruled. Just as well, as it was arguably the best of the films. Of the TNG era films, I liked First Contact but the rest left me cold. I don't mind the new ones.