Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all The Guermantes Way discussions through page 362 / location 21934.

I just finished this week's reading, and was wondering how much longer I could possibly endure the drawing room and the boring conversations with everyone vying for a chance to elevate their social standing by being introduced to some high-powered hoity-toity person, and I was mentally standing up to leave the room when - wait! Odette walked in? And, WHAT? She was... WHAAAAAT? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This is gonna be GOOD!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "I just finished this week's reading, and was wondering how much longer I could possibly endure the drawing room and the boring conversations with everyone vying for a chance to elevate their social..."

"Odette walked in?"

Yes, just when you think you couldn't "possible endure," Proust pulls you back in!
Oh, the twists and turns. As someone mentioned on the BBC Radio 4 Proust discussion....it is rather like a mystery.

Reading the novel, innocently, by myself in 2005, I was so overcome by the ending...I immediately began to re-read it.

And there, reading it the second time, were all the "clues!"

Amazingly, after all these years, there are still discoveries to be found, with fellow, close, readers.
And, I am looking for a Proustian/mathematician-astronomer to help me understand two gems, hidden between the words.

Clues? No, wait! I don't know how it ends yet. Don't tell me, don't tell me! :)

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Clues? No, wait! I don't know how it ends yet. Don't tell me, don't tell me! :)"

I'm guessing that the narrator saves the world from an alien invasion.

Seriously? Because I heard the aliens won.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Seriously? Because I heard the aliens won."

You've ruined it for me now! :-(

LOL!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Clues? No, wait! I don't know how it ends yet. Don't tell me, don't tell me! :)"

Ah, a true Proustian would never spoil the ending, because then we couldn't live vicariously through your experience. ;)

Don't do too much surfing/research, just read "innocently," as Antoine Compagnon recommends, and share your reactions on the weekly thread.

Next year will be the time to delve further into personal curiosities.

Aside:
James Connelly, PSA-Boston, loves music and came upon a name of a musician he didn't know, while reading the novel.

Well, one thing merged into another and "Voilà!"
James now has a chapter in this book, on the music in Proust.


http://www.decitre.fr/livres/marcel-p...

" Finally James Connelly and Gerard Pesson establish a bridge between literature and music explaining and commenting on the choice of composers and works on both discs in the book."

https://translate.google.com/translat...

It's only in French.
I bought mine last summer at the Proust museum in Illiers-Combray.

So, until next year, "Mum" is the mantra.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "and I was mentally standing up to leave the room"

hahaha I loved this comment, Sunny! :)

Marcelita wrote: "Next year will be the time to delve further into personal curiosities."

Marcelita, I'm planning on re-reading the books next year! I really like this reading schedule because it only takes me a couple of hours per saturday - which is the day I chose to read it. So I could easily do it again next year. I'm pondering whether I should re-read it in Portuguese or try it in English next time. What do you think?

Some paintings were mentioned in this week's reading:

1) While Mme. de Villeparisis was painting, Legrandin critiqued her work by saying:

"Ah, you leave Pisanello and Van Huysum a long way behind, with their meticulous, dead herbals."

Fruit and Flowers, Jan van Huysum, before 1726

2) When the narrator talked about his admiration for Elstir and calling one of his paintings a masterpiece, M. de Norpois disagreed and said:

"If you label a clever little thing of that sorte "masterpiece", what will you say about Hébert's Virgin or Dagnan-Bouveret?"

Virgin and Child, Antoine-Auguste-Ernest Hébert, 1872



Consolatrix Afflictorum, Pascal-Adolphe-Jean Dagnan-Bouveret, 1899.

Someone else got the feeling that the narrator was too quiet? When Mme. de Guermantes walked in, I instantly imagined he would be doing everything he could to impress her and be seen as someone worthy of her time.

Of course, though, he would be disappointed after having the opportunity to know her. I, too, fell out of love with Mme. de Guermantes instantly. I found her comments about other women rather low and cruel.

As a new Don Quixote fan - I'm on my way to finish the book next week - I really enjoyed the reference:

M. de Norpois raised his eyes to the ceiling, but with a smile, as though calling on heaven to witness the monstrosity of the caprices to which his Dulcinea compelled him to submit.

I mean, it is a reference to Don Quixote, right? :)

And, keeping up with Jonathan's tradition, my favorite quote from this week's reading:

It seemed to me that nature, less unconventional than the old poets, must make use almost exclusively of the elements common to the family, and I was unable to credit her with enough power of invention to construct, out of materials analogous to those that composed a fool and clod, a lofty mind without the least strain of clownish- ness, a saint unsoiled by any brutality.

Renato wrote: "I mean, it is a reference to Don Quixote, right? :)"

YES! I'd forgotten about that! I (finally) read DQ a couple of years ago and didn't make the connection here. Great observation, Renato!

Marcelita wrote: "And, I am looking for a Proustian/mathematician-astronomer to help me understand two gems, hidden between the words."

When we've 'found time again' (as Jonathan so eloquently put it), if I forget to ask you about the 'two gems', please remind me. I'm really curious about this now.

Already planning a re-read Renato? That's impressive. I won't re-read it so soon but I am looking forward to reading a bio and other books on Proust. I do find myself re-reading parts, or sometimes all, of the previous week's reading before starting the current week - so in a way I'm reading it twice anyway! :-)

I'm a bit behind this week. I'm trying to finish a section of another book before switching back to my scheduled Proust read. Should read it tomorrow (Sunday) where I'll probably start at the beginning of the party from last week's read.

Nice pics by the way.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "When we've 'found time again' (as Jonathan so eloquently put it), if I forget to ask you about the 'two gems', please remind me. I'm really curious about this now. "

Me too! Let's not forget about this!

Jonathan wrote: "Already planning a re-read Renato? That's impressive. I won't re-read it so soon but I am looking forward to reading a bio and other books on Proust.

Well I enjoy planning ahead, but everything can change, of course, as we're a long way from 2015. But I also like your idea about reading a bio and other books on Proust before trying a re-read. Sometimes I want to re-read a book as soon as I finish it! Recently, it happened with Mrs. Dalloway and The Magic Mountain.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "And, I am looking for a Proustian/mathematician-astronomer to help me understand two gems, hidden between the words."

"...if I forget to ask you about the 'two gems', please remind me. I'm really curious about this now. .."

We will need a French mathematician to help reveal these two gems:

"...the perfect circle that one hundred words circumscribe in a ten-league radius around medieval Combray..." J. Theodore Johnson, Jr.

And, the mathematics surrounding "a brilliant paragraph in which he has Swann decide to work on Vermeer's Diane et ses nymphes (RTP, I, 353- 55)." J. Theodore Johnson, Jr.

Renato wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "and I was mentally standing up to leave the room"

"...re-read it in Portuguese...?"

If you have no free-will/become a Proustian, he will be apart of your life forever. (No free-will, just means it is not a conscious choice...some of us just get hooked on the way our minds meld with his words.)

So, to appreciate the structure of the novel, the layerings, and the clues/foreshadowings, I would re-read it in the language that comes easiest to you.

Then, read it in English...and/or eventually in French.

Ideally, you hope to know the novel almost "by heart," so you can then delve into a particular interest-music, art, philosophy, architecture, food, flowers, weather, colors, history, or photography.

I am currently re-reading the novel, focusing on the photography...and how Proust applies the concept of "developing" the images later to memory. All those windows...the shutter.

Wow, folks talking about Proust! I found this through Twitter. Proust has been on my bucket list all my life! I'm somewhat ahead, near the end of Guermantes Way, but I'll roll with the punches. I'm reading the C.K. Scott Moncrieff translation because that matches to Audiobook I'm listening to.. I discovered not long ago that listening while reading makes all sorts of books accessible I could never get through. Look forward to the comments. The posted artworks referenced are a nice touch. What surprises me most about these books is how hilarious they can be at times.

Dave wrote: "Wow, folks talking about Proust! I found this through Twitter. Proust has been on my bucket list all my life! I'm somewhat ahead, near the end of Guermantes Way, but I'll roll with the punches. I'm..."

Welcome, Dave! Are you listening to Neville Jason's unabridged version?

I listen, 2x speed, to the party scenes, while walking the streets.
I can follow the conversation, hear the humor, and ignore people looking at me laughing.

Yet, I prefer to read with a book in my hands...throw-back style. ;)

Couldn't agree more with Renato's added touch of the art work!

Marcelita: Thanks for the inputs on how to re-read the novel. I thought about reading it in French, but my French isn’t better than my English… maybe in a few years, though! Having to mostly always read translations, I’m always worried about their quality and whether I won’t truly miss anything of the original work. So reading Proust in French would be simply amazing.

How many times have you read it so far?

Dave, welcome to the group! Feel free to add comments to the discussions threads and once we catch up, we’ll discuss them with you.

Yes Marcelita, I'm listenng to Neville Jason unabridged. Took some getting used to Neville. I had listened to John Rowe for the first two volumes and really enjoyed his narration. But Rowe not available on later volumes. My main objection to Jason is he makes the servants sound like downstairs Dowton Abby to me. Francoise sounds like Mrs Patmore. But I've settled into Jason now. I've gone over to the dark side and read everything on my Kindle App. I read several boks simultaneously and like to have them all with me. And I like abilty to highlight and look up words in embedded dictionary.

Thanks Renato, my ebook doesn't have real page numbers. I had to do a word search of the artist names to find where the discussion was at. I see the discussion is about aristocrats and drawing rooms but that doesn't narrow it down much in these books. Has Marcel gone to visit Saint Loup at Doncieres yet?

Dave, take a look at the Reading Schedule discussion (especially posts #1 and #29). In addition to page numbers assigned to each week, there are Kindle locations for some e-book versions. Hopefully, yours is listed and you'll find your way easily.

If it isn't though, just use post #1 to find your way as the beginning of paragraphs are listed.

This week's reading stars with "Mme de Guermantes had sat down..." and ends just before the new paragraph that goes "Mme de Villeparisis meanwhile was not too well pleased...".

Thanks, Found I could search on the phrases referenced. Found where the group is and where I am in the schedule (week 6/14).

Dave wrote: "Yes Marcelita, I'm listenng to Neville Jason unabridged. Took some getting used to Neville. I had listened to John Rowe for the first two volumes and really enjoyed his narration. But Rowe not avai..."

Ha! Yes, I agree completely about Neville's accents.
A French reader once explained that Proust's writing style indicated the class level of the characters, which we miss completely in translation. Thus, Neville must resort to the English class accents to show that demarcation.

@Renato I have been reading Proust continually since 2004, with many reading groups. Plus, there are times when I return to specific passages just for the joy...like watching the ending of Casablanca...or the scene where Captain Renault exclaims, "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

One of my favorite passages is the pear scene with Charlus and Morel, in S&G, because it is so layered. We can return to this later.

Welcome Dave. I briefly considered listening to the audiobook as well as reading but decided in the end to just read it. When we read something in translation we have already had it filtered through the translator and then if we listen to the audiobook it's going through another 'filtering' process. Mind you, if I do re-read it the audiobook might be a good option.

Marcelita, good point about the distinction of class levels that Neville makes. I was just being churlish at having to change narrators in mid-novel.

Jonathan. Your point is also well made about the filters we have to deal with as we read. To wax philosophical, ultimately our own minds are perhaps the most significant filter. We perceive and judge what we read from a perspective of unique experiences, prejudices, and sympathies.

When I read a book, I often find myself "casting" the movie version. The cast all have voices that I recall in my mind. I find this distracting. The voices of the narrator of an audiobook are "unknown" (I tend to avoid books narrated by well known persons) and so I find them a more neutral "filter" than the "voicetrack" my imagination keeps wanting to add.

I read and listen simultaneously without interruption and without multi-tasking. Its slower going than my natural reading speed. But as I indicated in an earlier post, this method is giving me access to books I never thought I could read - let alone understand. Using this technique I recently finished three of Faulkner's most challenging novels; As I Lay Dying, Absalom Absalom, and Sound and the Fury - not only finished them, but was able to say to myself, " I get this!"

Dave:

"The voices of the narrator of an audiobook are "unknown" and so I find them a more neutral "filter" than the "voicetrack" my imagination keeps wanting to add."

Curious if your imagination heard the "little phrase?"

Aside:
There are four different audiobooks for SW. I listen to John Rowe's version of the Overture, when I find myself awake in the middle of the night. His voice is medicinal.
"Oh, joy of joys..." MP (SW)

(Downloaded on my old iPod from this list: http://www.audible.com/search/ref=pd_... )

Well Marcelita, I've listened to a lot of classical music in my life and had a lot of "little phrase" moments in my life, but my musical skills aren't up to composing soundtracks to books I am reading. I made do with figuing it was from a French romantic period piano sonata. Any suggestions?

But your question did cause me to speculate on the ultimate Proustian moment - the "little band" at Balbec playing the "little phrase" while I eat little lemon scented cakes! Oh the memories that would flood back!

Thanks for the list of Audio Versions. I'd forgotten Simon Vance. I listened to the Dragon Tatoo Trilogy with him. Also didn't realize there was a Spanish Audio. I've got a niece in Mexico that wants to go to Paris for her 15th birthday. I keep teasing her that she can't go until she has read Proust. Now the Spanish Audio Version will strengthen my hand!

Shock! Horror! Proust does dialogue - big time.

I actually like these party/soiree/salon scenes with the multiple conversations and all the snobbery and bitching going on. I'm thinking back to Mme Swann's little get-togethers and the Verdurin's salon...all good fun! When I first came across Proust many years ago this is what I imagined the bulk of the book to be like.

Renato mentioned that the narrator seems absent for most of the conversations. He takes a back seat and is only occasionally drawn into the chatter. But this is ok as he's been talking about himself for the rest of the novel. :-)

Oh, but what's this? The narrator is already getting bored with Mme Guermantes! When she twitters on about The Seven Princesses he thinks 'what a bird-brained woman!...so this is the woman I walk miles to see every morning...' Ha! Ha!

I hadn't realised before (not being able to speak or read French to any reasonable level) that 'loup' is French for 'wolf'! So Saint-Loup is Saint-Wolf?

The pun on St-Loup's name when he arrives is explained in the Penguin notes as 'quand on parle du loup' meaning 'talk of the devil'

A quick internet search finds the full quote as 'quand on parle du loup (on en voit la queue)' meaning 'when you speak of the wolf (you'll see his tail)'.

I found the ongoing conversation between Bloch & Norpois about Dreyfus interesting; Bloch just can't pin him down to commit to a 'guilty' or 'not guilty' decision. Norpois is just too much of a politician, he just ends up rambling away, bludgeoning Bloch with his speech until the others join in with their anti-Semitic views forcing Bloch to leave, bewildered. Bloch just doesn't understand the etiquette of this aristocratic crowd. I like Bloch more as the novel goes on.

Prince von Faffenheim-Munsterburg-Weinigen - that's a name to be reckoned with, isn't it? I imagined some scary fat Prussian militaristic monster but he turns out to be quite human and almost a match for Norpois' diplomatic convolutions.

Jonathan wrote: "Renato mentioned that the narrator seems absent for most of the conversations. He takes a back seat and is only occasionally drawn into the chatter. But this is ok as he's been talking about himself for the rest of the novel. :-)"

Haha, good point! But I really thought he would try to impress her by talking more, giving intelligent opinions on the several discussions etc..


Jonathan wrote: "Oh, but what's this? The narrator is already getting bored with Mme Guermantes! When she twitters on about The Seven Princesses he thinks 'what a bird-brained woman!...so this is the woman I walk miles to see every morning...' Ha! Ha! "

Haha that moment was pretty funny! Reminded me of one of those moments that we think we are entitled to 'compensations' for 'sacrifices' we made for someone who has no clue they 'owe' us anything.

Dave wrote: "Well Marcelita, I've listened to a lot of classical music in my life and had a lot of "little phrase" moments in my life, but my musical skills aren't up to composing soundtracks to books I am read...

"Any suggestions?"

Probably as many articles, as notes, have been written on the "little phrase."
One always must be cautious, as Proust would suggest various "muses" to different people.
However, his letter to Jacques de Lacretelle seems to be a guide.
As with his characters, he melded different passages into the "little phrase."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_duh...

By Professor Kazuyoshi Yoshikawa (One of our current Proust world-gurus)
http://www.kyoto-u.ac.jp/en/news_data...

From:
"Proust in Perspective: Visions and Revisions"
edited by Armine Kotin Mortimer, Katherine Kolb

Translation:
"....evening at Saint-Euverte's, the sonata for violin and piano by Saint-Saens; later that evening, would not surprise me if talking about the little phrase I thought the spell of Good Friday; also during this evening, when the piano and the violin moan as two birds respond, I thought of the Franck Sonata (mostly played by Enesco); the trills that cover the little phrase at the Verdurins, I have been suggested as a prelude to Lohengrin...at that time, idea of a song by Schubert; and same night at the Verdurins, a lovely piece by Fauré." MP

Wow Marcelita, that is hard-core Proustian background research! In thinking of your question I had idylly thought of Saint-Saens, Frank, and also D'Indy. Faure slipped my mind. Didn't try to match specific pieces but just went with a vague instinct it would have been a French composer. D'Indy might have been too late to be a contender.

You said you have been reading Proust since 2004, do you teach literature?

Dave wrote: "...do you teach literature?"

No, however, I did teach history for several years. Actually, while I was reading history in my twenties, I came across "Marcel Proust" for the first time and had this incredible sensation that he was somehow important to me. Not really interested in the French language or history, preferring American political history/government, I continued to have this weird feeling whenever I came across his name or a reference to the novel.

Finally, I made a commitment to myself that when I had the time, I would read ISOLT. Well, one day I picked up Swann's Way...without a reading group, knowing nothing about the plot...and just began.

I must have read these opening sentences a zillion times:

"I had been thinking all the time, while I was asleep, of what I had just been reading, but my thoughts had run into a channel of their own, until I myself seemed actually to have become the subject of my book: a church, a quartet, the rivalry between François I and Charles V.

"This impression would persist for some moments after I was awake; it did not disturb my mind, but it lay like scales upon my eyes and prevented them from registering the fact that the candle was no longer burning." MP

Still get goose-bumps from "...it lay like scales upon my eyes..."

And, I learned that Alan de Botton was right.

At last we get confirmation of the 'lady in pink'; though I think we'd all realised who it was.

Is it just me or does Charles Morel come across as a bit creepy, or even sinister?

Jonathan wrote: "At last we get confirmation of the 'lady in pink'; though I think we'd all realised who it was.

Is it just me or does Charles Morel come across as a bit creepy, or even sinister?"

Guilty on both counts from my perspective Jonathan. But also stupid, Marcel sizes him up nicely as "In vain did he seek to divest himself of his lowly origin." (interesting use of "divest") I'm sure we will see Morel again making mischief or getting in over his head.

But to me the high point of Morel's appearrance is to provide Proust yet another wonderful opportunity to comment obliquely on the workings of the human heart. Noticing Morel's interest in Jupien's niece, Proust notes that "Charles Morel seemed to have, besides ambition, a strong leaning toward more concrete realities."

By God, if I were 40 years younger, I'd try that as a pick up line in a singles bar! lol

Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "...do you teach literature?"

No, however, I did teach history for several years. Actually, while I was reading history in my twenties, I came across "Marcel Proust" for the first tim..."

Ah, Alain de Botton, love his book on Proust and have read several of his books.

As for opening lines, I have modeled my life on "For a longtime I used to go to bed early..." Even though I didn't get past the first page of Proust for 40 years, those were words to live by!

Jonathan wrote: "At last we get confirmation of the 'lady in pink'; though I think we'd all realised who it was."

I read some comments like "oh so now we know who the lady in pink was" and my reaction was "wait, we knew that already... no?". I don't remember exactly how it went on the book, but was there room for interpretation? Wasn't it always clear that it was Odette?

Renato wrote: "I don't remember exactly how it went on the book, but was there room for interpretation? Wasn't it always clear that it was Odette? ..."

I can't quite remember now but I think that it was highly likely that it was Odette but that could have been a red herring. It's nice to get it clarified though.

I never realised the problems that they had with hats. Really! One would have thought that a uniformly accepted form of etiquette would have been agreed upon and instigated.

Dave wrote: "Ah, Alain de Botton, love his book on Proust and have read several of his books."

So that book is good indeed? I bought a Kindle version when I started reading ISOLT, went through it a little and ended up returning it for a refund. For some reason I thought it would be too self-help and not worthy to read.

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "Ah, Alain de Botton, love his book on Proust and have read several of his books."

So that book is good indeed? I bought a Kindle version when I started reading ISOLT, went through it ..."

I really enjoy his books Renato. He is a practicing philosopher - educated as a philosopher but writing books on how get more out of life. His book on Proust is about showing how to experience life more fully by taking what Proust writes about to heart.

Interesting, thanks, Dave! I might take another look at it then. :)