Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all The Guermantes Way discussions through page 728 / location 26514.

I get so confused trying to keep the names straight. Not to mention the web of relationships. One person can have so many different titles and such that I sometimes have to stop and go research who is supposed to be talking.

Is this deliberate on Proust's part, or is this just typical of the period?

I'm sympathetic Sunny, and very admiring of anyone who can read this book. Without also listening to the Audiobook simultaneously, I had never been able to get 20 pages into Swann's Way. The different voices that the reader creates in the Audiobook make it less of a challenge. And the audio pronunciations of the names helps me a lot also. The titles, yes I find them confusing too. But I really don't pay much attention to the titles. Proust is capturing an era and its social norms, but I see him capturing it through parody and satire. The characters are full of themselves, but they are vapid, vain, and pompous and not to be taken seriously.

While still in the Guermantes' dinner party and talking again about Elstir, the fictitious painter our narrator admires, he mentions two of his paintings from an "early period in which Elstir's personality was not yet completely established and he derived a certain inspiration from Manet."

A painting from Manet:


Olympia, Édouard Manet, 1863

Manet was also mentioned later, in a conversation between the Dutchess and the Princesse de Parme. Oriane said:

"But really, the other day I was with the Grand Duchess in the Louvre and we happened to pass before Manet's Olympia. Nowadays nobody is in the least surprised by it. It looks just like an Ingres! And yet, heaven only knows how many spears I've had to break for that picture, which I don't altogether like but which is unquestionably the work of somebody."

A painting by Ingres:


Grand Odalisque, Jean-Auguste-Dominique Ingres, 1814

But, back to the conversation about Elstir, M. de Guermantes shows disdain for the painter and Ingres is mentioned yet again:

"But tell me, you seem quite gone on his pictures. If I had only known, I should have got up the subject properly. Not that there's any need to rack one's brains over the meaning of M. Elstir's work, as one would for Ingres's Source or the Princes in the Towier by Paul Delaroche. What one appreciates in his work is that it's shrewdly observed, amusing, Parisian, and then one passes on to the next thing. One doesn't need to be an expert to look at that sort of thing. I know of course that they're merely sketches, still, I don't feel myself that he puts enough work into them."

The Source, Jean-Auguste-Dominique Ingres, 1856


The Children of Edward: Edward V, King of England, and Richard, Duke of York, in the Tower of London, Paul Delaroche, 1830

And in a new approximation between Elstir and Manet, M. de Guermantes continued:

"Swann was determined that we should buy a Bundle of Asparagus. In fact it was in the house for several days. There was nothing else in the picture, a bundle of asparagus exactly like what you're eating now. But I must say I declined to swallow M. Elstir's asparagus. He asked three hundred francs for them. Three hundred francs for a bundle of asparagus."

Manet did paint this, haha:


Bunch of Asparagus, Édouard Manet, 1880

And then, while reinforcing his point about Elstir to Oriane (who tried to intervene in his defense), he added:

"Well, Oriane, in that style of thing I'd a thousand times rather have the little study by M. Vibert we saw at the water-colour exhibition. There's nothing much in it, if you like, you could take it in the palm of your hand, but you can see the man's clever through and through: that unwashed scarecrow of a missionary standing before the sleek prelate who is making his little dog do tricks, it's a perfect little poem of subtlety, and in fact goes really deep."

A Tasty Treat, Jehan-Georges Vibert

From Vibert's Wikipedia page:

A large collection of works by Vibert was amassed by the heiress May Louise Maytag on behalf of then bishop of Miami Coleman Carroll, who greatly fancied them. This large cache was then donated to the Florida seminary St. John Vianney College in Miami. At this location the extremely impressive collection has had a somewhat checkered conservation history, as well as exhibition history due to the discomfiture of later bishops with the seeming anti-clericalism of the paintings (lighthearted debaucheries, etc.).

Some of his other paintings on the same theme:

Thanks Renato!

Mme. de Guermantes, while describing to Princesse de Parma one of the Iénas bedrooms, mentioned this painting:


The Young Man and Death, Gustave Moreau

The Princesse de Parma had no idea of which painting Oriane was talking about, and the narrator gave us this very realistic quote:

"The Princesse de Parme, who did not know so much as the painter's name, made violent movements with her head and smiled ardently, in order to manifest her admiration for his picture. But the intensity of her mimicry could not fill the place of that light which is absent from our eyes so long as we do not understand what people are trying to tell us."

I wish people would stop pretending when they don't know about something that is mentioned in a conversation - it's very evident when that light simply is not there, LOL.

Dave wrote: "Thanks Renato!"

Not for that, Dave! :) Ever since I started reading ISOLT I'm becoming interested in art a bit and when a painting is mentioned, or a musical piece etc., I try to research and find out more about it, so it just feels natural sharing it here with the group.

Mme. de Guermantes said:

"Basin was talking to you just now about Beethoven. We heard a thing of his played the other day which was really quite good, though a little stiff, with a Russian theme in it. It's pathetic to think that he believed it to be Russian."

She's talking about three string quartets (opus 59) that Beethoven wrote in 1806 for Count Andreas Razumovsky, Russian ambassador in Vienna.

Here they are:

String Quartet No. 7 in F major, Op. 59, No. 1

String Quartet No. 8 in E minor, Op. 59, No. 2

String Quartet No. 9 in C major, Op. 59, No. 3

The painting by Manet (Olympia) and the painter Ingres had already appeared in last week's reading as part of the narrator's thoughts:

"And yet the older among them might have reminded themselves that in the course of their lives they had seen gradually, as the years bore them away from it, the unbridgeable gulf between what they considered a masterpiece by Ingres and what, they had supposed, must remain for ever a 'horror' (Manet's Olympia, for example) shrink until the two canvases seemed like twins. But we learn nothing from any lesson because we have not the wisdom to work backwards from the particular to the general, and imagine ourselves always to be going through an experience which is without precedents in the past."

Then, it seemed he discoursed about them to Oriane - because right before the section I quoted when posting the paintings, he said:

""Why, yes," went on the Duchess, adding more and more to her words (which were practically my own, for I had just been expressing a similar idea to her), thanks to her way of pronouncing them, the equivalent of what on the prin- ted page is called italics:"

I was quite shocked she would simply state his ideas as her own while still in his presence! I would think she would at least waited till he wasn't there anymore.

Sort of an endless hall of literary mirrors eh? He said, then she said what he said, then he said what she said that he said, then Proust wrote what he said that she said that he said she said that Proust wrote that the reader read! Can you say that sentence really fast three times? lol

Hahaha! You made me laugh out loud now, Dave! You're too funny!

Also funny was how Oriane talked about the portrait that Elstir was painting of her:

"Didn't he once start a portrait of you, Oriane?" asked the Princesse de Parme. "Yes, in shrimp pink," replied Mme. de Guermantes, "but that's not going to hand his name down to posterity. It's a ghastly thing; Basin wanted to have it destroyed." This last statement was one which Mme. de Guermantes often made. But at other times her appreciation of the picture was different: "I do not care for his painting, but he did once do a good portrait of me." The former of these judgments was addressed as a rule to people who spoke to the Duchess of her portrait, the other to those who did not refer to it and whom therefore she was anxious to inform of its existence. The former was inspired in her by coquetry, the latter by vanity."

and:

""I quite share his point of view. Although Elstir has done a fine portrait of me. You don't know it? It's not in the least like me, but it's a remarkable piece of work. He is interesting while one's sitting to him. He has made me like a little old woman It's after the style of the Regents of the Hospital, by Hals. I expect you know those sublimities, to borrow my nephew's favourite expression," the Duchess turned to myself, gently flapping her fan of black feathers."

The Women Regents of the Old Men's Almshouses, Frans Hals, 1664

LOL at this reference!

These pictures and quotes really add to the appreciation of the book!

Dave wrote: "These pictures and quotes really add to the appreciation of the book!"

It really amazes me how much Proust knew about art. It's really an exercise in itself trying to find out and grasp everything he's referencing!

Unlike last week, I enjoyed this week's read a lot and it didn't bother me that the whole section still took place at the Guermantes dinner party. I guess the whole Courvoisier vs. Guermantes distinction was what put me off.

Some highlights for me:

- I have a similar case happening in my family, but every time I run into such a situation - whether in real life or fiction - it always dazzles me: Oriane knows that the M. de Guermantes is unfaithful to her; but that's not enough: she makes jokes and talk about these affairs in front of others (and while the Duke is present); wait, there's more: she comforts the women when those indiscretions end and - to enhance my fascination - it's like she prefers when he's in love so he'll be in a good mood and will indulge her desires!!! I - could - never.

- Although it seems the Duke doesn't love her and leaving all his cheating aside, I thought it was endearing how proud he seemed of Oriane when at each of her snarky pleasantries, he would look around to see if the attendees enjoyed her remarks. Reminded me of how a proud father would feel after his child's displays of talents.

- It was pretty funny (and a bit rude, I guess) the remarks Mme. de Guermantes made about M. de Bornier: how she could never invite him over or else she'd need to disinfect the house afterwards with formol and that when she was sitting next to him, she had to stop her nose as best possible all through dinner, only being able to breathe when it was gruyère time! OMG! LOL

- Another fun part was when Oriane said de Charlus had a woman's heart and how quickly the Duke spoke on his defense, saying "There's nothing effeminate about Mémé, I know nobody so manly as he is." LOL she didn't even call him effeminate... at least not out in the open. Was she once again trying to be witty about her remarks and implying that though? For him to act so defensively, I wonder if this is something they had discussed on their own before...

- Continuing what was implied in last week's read about the Prince de Foix's sexuality, we had another revealing clue in Prince Von's dialogue with the narrator:

""That Rachel was speaking to me about you, she told me that young Saint-Loup worshipped you, that he was fonder of you than he was of her," said Prince Von to me, devouring his food like an ogre as he spoke, his face scarlet, his teeth bared by his perpetual grin. "But in that case she must be jealous of me and hate me," said I. "Not at all, she told me all sorts of nice things about you. The Prince de Foix's mistress would perhaps be jealous if he preferred you to her. You don't understand? Come home with me, and I'll explain it all to you.""

- Is Prince Von also interested on our narrator...? "Come home with me"? Mmhmm...

Yes, there is a lot to observe in these big social scenes. This dinner doesn't end until next week's reading where I made some brief remarks about it. I don't think I am giving anything away to say that in Sodom and Gommorah there are two big social scenes. It was not until I got to the first of those that I felt I was beginning to appreciate "Proust parties." At this dinner I was struggling to get through and mainly got that it developed the characters of the Duc and Duchess and explained their marriage. Now I am nearing the end of the second event in Sodom and Gomorrah and I am fascinated. Since the first family dinner in Combray, the events have grown more and more complex. The social events seem like music compositions beginning with piano scales and now they have become synphonies. Proust seems to use different techniques in each one to devop suspense, carry on multiple conversations etc.
I'm not much into reading biographys and summaries and such, but if Marcelita drops by I want to ask her if she knows of books or articles on how Proust devlops these "gatherings" over the course of the novel.

I did catch the irony of the Duc's defense of his brother's manliness. I said to myself "me thinks the lady doth protest too much."

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "Thanks Renato!"

Not for that, Dave! :) Ever since I started reading ISOLT I'm becoming interested in art a bit and when a painting is mentioned, or a musical piece etc., I try to research and find out more about it, so it just feels natural sharing it here with the group."

Au contraire! Renato, your curiosity has enriched our understanding of this passage, with your mini-seminar in art and music.

So grateful that you took the time to delve into the layers...I will wrap this thread in a blue ribbon and tuck it into my memory case.

Bravo!

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "These pictures and quotes really add to the appreciation of the book!"

It really amazes me how much Proust knew about art. It's really an exercise in itself trying to find out and grasp everything he's referencing."

"...trying to...grasp everything he's referencing?"
Renato, you will be welcomed on the other-side of the novel.
This is a place where Proustians live in a continual search...art, music, philosophy, architecture, literature, history, mythology, botany, psychology, etc.,

Then, there are the colors. (Spoilers)
"The Color-keys to 'A la Recherche Du Temps Perdu'"
By Allan H. Pasco
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_r1...

Researching? You can read up to three articles online FREE:
Scroll to the bottom: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307...

Marcelita wrote: "Au contraire! Renato, your curiosity has enriched our understanding of this passage, with your mini-seminar in art and music.

So grateful that you took the time to delve into the layers...I will wrap this thread in a blue ribbon and tuck it into my memory case.

Bravo! "

Those are lovely words, Marcelita. Thank you so much for your kindness! I'm glad you enjoyed the posts about art and music. :)

---

So the colors also play a big part in the novel? I should've imagined that... haha; thanks for mentioning that book. I'll add it to Goodreads (apparently it's not in the database) and shelve it to read once I finished ISOLT as I don't want to spoil anything at this time.

Renato wrote: "I wish people would stop pretending when they don't know about something that is mentioned in a conversation - it's very evident when that light simply is not there, LOL."

Ha! Ha! I liked this bit as well. We can easily tell when someone does this but we all do it ourselves and think we're getting away with it (we don't). I admit it's a bad habit and it's best to declare one's ignorance...easier said than done though.

Thanks for all the photos and links Renato.

Renato wrote: "Also funny was how Oriane talked about the portrait that Elstir was painting of her:
"Didn't he once start a portrait of you, Oriane?" asked the Princesse de Parme. "Yes, in shrimp pink," replied ..."

Did you also wonder where this portrait was? Mme Guermantes says that M. Guermantes wanted to destroy it. I'm sure that the narrator would have noticed it if it was on display with the other Elstirs. Maybe it was still with Elstir? Or did I miss something?

Renato wrote: "- Is Prince Von also interested on our narrator...? "Come home with me"? Mmhmm..."

I think he is. And he also suggests that Prince de Foix has similar inclinations.

Renato wrote: " I'll add it to Goodreads (apparently it's not in the database) and shelve it to read once I finished ISOLT as I don't want to spoil anything at this time..."

And add it to the group's bookshelf as well when it's on GR.

Dave wrote: "Yes, there is a lot to observe in these big social scenes. This dinner doesn't end until next week's reading where I made some brief remarks about it. I don't think I am giving anything away to say..."

I'm having a bit of an on/off vibe with the Guermantes shindig. I really enjoyed all the chatter and bitchiness of the Villeparisis party but struggled with last week's intro to this party. This week's reading is a lot better - mainly because Proust just lets the characters talk rather than analyse it all too much.

First of all it seemed that the only guests present were the Guermantes, the narrator and the Princess de Parma, but slowly the other guests start to engage more in the conversations. Though it's all about Mme Guermantes - she just has to be the centre of attention...and people like that always have an inferior (Princess de Parma - intellectually inferior) around to bounce their chatter off and to make themselves feel good.

There's a lot of info being thrown around in these soirees and some of it may even be reliable! I think they'll have to be re-read again at a later date as what is said will probably make more sense.

Although I found all the distinctions between the Courvoisiers and the Guermantes in last week's reading a bit of a drag, I thought that it was summed up really well with this quote:

The Princess of Parma was a Courvoisier in that she was incapable of innovation in social matters, but unlike the Courvoisiers in that the surprises the Duchesse de Guermantes perpetually held in store for her engendered in her not, as in them, antipathy but a sense of wonder.

To use more modern terminology, the Courvoisiers are like introverts and the Guermantes are like extroverts; the Courvoisiers need strict social rules while the Guermantes break them and make new ones. I can empathise a bit with the Princess, as I am also fascinated with how these socialites (in real life and in this novel) operate and I'm usually happier when I know the rules & regulations that apply.

One of my favourite quotes in this section was this one where the narrator reveals exactly what it is about Mme Guermantes that appeals to him:

Her mind, shaped so long before my own, was for me the equivalent of what had been offered me by the behaviour of the girls of the little gang along the sea-shore. Mme de Guermantes offered me, tamed and subdued by good manners, by respect for intellectual values, the energy and charm of a cruel little girl from one of the noble families around Combray, who from her childhood had ridden horses, sadistically tormented cats, gouged out the eyes of rabbits, and, while remaining a paragon of virtue, might equally well have been, some years back now, and so much did she share his dashing style, the most glamorous mistress of the Prince de Sagan.

Ah, what a sensitive soul he is: he falls in love with hawthorn blossoms and girls who gouges out rabbits' eyes. :-)

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Yes, there is a lot to observe in these big social scenes. This dinner doesn't end until next week's reading where I made some brief remarks about it. I don't think I am giving anythin..."

Jonathan, Good summary of differences between Courvoisiers and Guermantes. My thoughts on the dinner were close to yours.

Jonathan wrote: "One of my favourite quotes in this section was this one where the narrator reveals exactly what it is about Mme Guermantes that appeals to him:Her mind, shaped so long before my own, was for me the..."

Good grief! I missed this quote! Ugh, creepy, catty, misogynistic? Based on my experience with people and my amateur psychology, this says nothing of the Duchess or the "little band" but says volumes about the narrator. I see this as the narrator trying to influence reader's opinions by projecting his own perverse childhood fantasies or behavior onto women in the story.

Well, at least this clears up one thing, our narrator is Norman Bates. lol

Dave wrote: "I see this as the narrator trying to influence reader's opinions by projecting his own perverse childhood fantasies or behavior onto women in the story.

Well, at least this clears up one thing, our narrator is Norman Bates. lol "

Yes, I think he had 'complicated' sexual preferences. Before starting on ISOLT I read Embracing the Ordinary: Lessons From the Champions of Everyday Life in which the author comments on the more unusual examples of Proust's sexual preferences:

Proust was a sadist who had rats delivered from an abattoir in order to torture them to death with a hatpin...Proust was a butcher fetishist and also stimulated himself by insulting his dead mother's memory.

It'll be interesting reading a biography of Proust next year. BTW the lesbian daughter of Vinteuil did a similar thing with the photo of her father in Vol.1(? or was it Vol.2).

Jonathan wrote: "Did you also wonder where this portrait was? Mme Guermantes says that M. Guermantes wanted to destroy it. I'm sure that the narrator would have noticed it if it was on display with the other Elstirs. Maybe it was still with Elstir? Or did I miss something?"

I did wonder that, Jonathan. I remember when the narrator visited Elstir, he saw a portrait of Odette. But I don't remember anything being mentioned about Oriane...

Dave wrote: "Well, at least this clears up one thing, our narrator is Norman Bates. lol "

OMG hahahaha! You crack me up, Dave!

Jonathan wrote: "Proust was a sadist who had rats delivered from an abattoir in order to torture them to death with a hatpin...Proust was a butcher fetishist and also stimulated himself by insulting his dead mother's memory."

Oh wow what? ...


Jonathan wrote: "It'll be interesting reading a biography of Proust next year. BTW the lesbian daughter of Vinteuil did a similar thing with the photo of her father in Vol.1(? or was it Vol.2)."

Vol. 1. :)

Jonathan wrote: "And add it to the group's bookshelf as well when it's on GR."

Done and done!

Here it is: The Color-Keys to "A la recherche du temps perdu".

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "I see this as the narrator trying to influence reader's opinions by projecting his own perverse childhood fantasies or behavior onto women in the story.

Well, at least this clears up ..."

Thanks for book recommendation Jonathan, I put the book on my wish list along with the Age of Absurdity.

This line of discussion is leading me to have a lot of bizarre Proustian memory connections. Reading of tortured rats and missing portraits leads me to think of the movie "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" which I have revised in my brain to "Whatever Happened to the Duchesses' Portrait?"Spoiler alert - it is locked in the Guermantes' attic with Elistir who is being fed rats.

I just never realized that the correct genre for ISOLT was psychological thriller. I'm surprised that publishers haven't thought of boosting sales with well placed spin control. "A Dynamo of Horror and and Suspense..." "A gruesome and sordid tale of lost innocence among a pastel landscape littered with the corpses of mutilated little animals"

Well, In for a penny, in for a pound. I'm hooked now so I will soldier on, whistling in the dark through the scary parts.

Dave wrote: "Reading of tortured rats and missing portraits leads me to think of the movie "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" which I have revised in my brain to "Whatever Happened to the Duchesses' Portrait?"Spoiler alert - it is locked in the Guermantes' attic with Elistir who is being fed rats...."

Whilst reading the Guermantes party scene I keep thinking of the film Abigail's Party by my favourite director Mike Leigh. It's not really a fair comparison but both hostesses will stop at nothing to remain the centre of attention.

That sounds good, I'll have to check that out. Thanks

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "And add it to the group's bookshelf as well when it's on GR."

Done and done!

Here it is: The Color-Keys to "A la recherche du temps perdu"."

I seem to have missed something. I followed the link and found the book on Amazon but other than title and ISBN there was nothing about it or any reviews. Two used copies are available, starting at $143. Thats's too rich for my Proust budget.

I just added the book so we'd have it as a reference, but apparently it's hard to find and expensive. It's available on Amazon UK for £38.90: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Keys-Re...

Renato wrote: "Mme. de Guermantes said:
"Basin was talking to you just now about Beethoven. We heard a thing of his played the other day which was really quite good, though a little stiff, with a Russian theme in..."

Oh wow, thanks for posting these string quartets, Renato!

No problem! :)