Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Sodom and Gomorrah discussions through page 164 / location 30940.

The Princess de Guermantes' party is the first one of these type scenes that I actually enjoyed and felt more or less comfortable in. I have a feeling that Proust (not the narrator) has mentored me on how to "get by" in such situations. I'm sure there is more to learn, but I'm no longer suffering Proustian social anxiety at having to go to a "Proust party."

The discussion of the Drefus Affair provided a historical marker to place this party within a pretty narrow window in history. Specific events have recently occurred that characters are reacting to. I've come to think of the Drefus Affair as the political "little phrase" in the book. When it surfaces in conversation it elicits strong emotions and allows the reader to track who holds what opinion, how opinions shift over time, and how opinions or the perception of opinions shape relationships among characters.

SPOILERS Now that Proust has mentored me to be at ease in his drawing or dining rooms, I find myself able to admire "writer's craft" items like structure and building suspense.
- In structure M. de Guermantes loud denouncement of Swan about the Dreyfus Affair that occurs near the beginning of the party is matched by Swan's confidential disclosure to the narrator of what M. de Guermantes had actually told him.
- At more or less the middle Swan's "life lesson" he gives to the narrator about jealousy. A significant recall of events in Swan and the narrator's life and a significant foreshadowing of the prominence of jealousy to come.
- In suspense I enjoyed the multiple lines of suspense:
- The narrator in the receiving line, will he get in?
- The narrator trying to find someone to introduce him to the host, will he succeed?
- Baron de Charlus stalking Mme. de Sturgis' sons, will he succeed?
- The narrator seeing Swann "across the room" on several occasions and wanting to ask him about the Dreyfus accusations, will he succeed? Well I already mentioned that. Swann's portrayal as a ruthless "truth-teller" at the end of Guermantes Way makes me very interested in what else he has to say.
- During the confidential conversation, suspense is maintained by constant interruption, very realistic is a social situation.

Dave wrote: "The Princess de Guermantes' party is the first one of these type scenes that I actually enjoyed and felt more or less comfortable in. I have a feeling that Proust (not the narrator) has mentored me..."

I think you may be right. I'm enjoying this party more than the previous ones. I think the only negative in my case is that I took too much of a break between novels, so I had to really think to remember some of the characters.

But - WOW! That de Charlus is devious, isn't he? His comments about not knowing the boys, suggesting they may be Turks, etc. all the while "stalking" them like a shark in bloody waters. LOL! This ought to be good.

Yes, things are always interesting when Charlus is in a scene, and not always for reasons of his sexuality.

I found it interesting that our narrator - who's been involved in duels because of the Dreyfus Affair - would stand silent while the Duc talked poorly of Swann because he was a Dreyfusard.

And what about Basin talking all of that just hours after having received Swann in his house and being friendly to him? Oh, the society...

Dave wrote: "The Princess de Guermantes' party is the first one of these type scenes that I actually enjoyed and felt more or less comfortable in. I have a feeling that Proust (not the narrator) has mentored me on how to "get by" in such situations. I'm sure there is more to learn, but I'm no longer suffering Proustian social anxiety at having to go to a "Proust party.""

Dave, I have enjoyed parties before that appeared in the previous volumes (in the Verdurin's salon, that last one in Mme. de Villeparisis' etc), but I agree that this one had a different quality to it. Maybe, as you pointed out, it's due to all of the suspense going on?

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Something else that had happened before and was mentioned in this week's reading was the talk about jealousy. Swann and our narrator talked a little about it. I enjoyed seeing that again as I find jealousy to be a really fascinating subject and I enjoyed Swann's Way a great deal because of that.

Hopefully we'll get more outbursts of jealousy in the future!

Proust can be such a bloody tease sometimes. For example:

But what suddenly revealed the Princesse's love to me was a particular fact that I shall not dwell on here, for it forms part of the quite different story in which M. de Charlus allowed a queen to die rather than miss the hairdresser who was to use the curling tongs on him for the sake of a bus conductor by whom he found himself prodigiously intimidated.

...er what!!! Now that's a story we'd like to hear about, isn't it? Unfortunately the notes in my book state that 'sadly Proust did not include this episode in the finished text.' Damn!!

Renato wrote, "Hopefully we'll get more outbursts of jealousy in the future! " I read somewhere Renato that about 1,000 pages of ISOLT are devoted to jealousy. I hope I have gotten through them because I am sick of the topic. But then my personality is the opposite of what a jealous person is.

Jonathan wrote, "Now that's a story we'd like to hear about, isn't it?" That does sound like an interesting story Jonathan. Charlus went from being the strongest character to my favorite character.

Jonathan wrote: "...er what!!! Now that's a story we'd like to hear about, isn't it? Unfortunately the notes in my book state that 'sadly Proust did not include this episode in the finished text.' Damn!!"

Damn it, I was looking forward to that! The notes on my book had nothing on that episode.


Dave wrote: "I read somewhere Renato that about 1,000 pages of ISOLT are devoted to jealousy. I hope I have gotten through them because I am sick of the topic. But then my personality is the opposite of what a jealous person is."

Wow, really? That's exciting for me! :) I'm not really a jealous person myself, but I find the topic to be really fascinating.

Then you may have to take tranquilizers to contain your excitement Renato!:)

Jonathan wrote: "Proust can be such a bloody tease sometimes. For example: But what suddenly revealed the Princesse's love to me was a particular fact that I shall not dwell on here, for it forms part of the quite ..."

Not in the finished text? Dammit - I was really looking forward to that story!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Proust can be such a bloody tease sometimes. For example: But what suddenly revealed the Princesse's love to me was a particular fact that I shall not dwell on here, for it forms p..."

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "The Princess de Guermantes' party is the first one of these type scenes that I actually enjoyed and felt more or less comfortable in. I have a feeling that Proust (not the narrator) ha..."

Dave wrote: "Renato wrote, "Hopefully we'll get more outbursts of jealousy in the future! " I read somewhere Renato that about 1,000 pages of ISOLT are devoted to jealousy. I hope I have gotten through them bec..."

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "The Princess de Guermantes' party is the first one of these type scenes that I actually enjoyed and felt more or less comfortable in. I have a feeling that Proust (not the narrator) ha..."

Whoever is looking forward to more jealousy will get loads of it in The Captive. I'm about halfway through that book. I'm really slowing down. It has to do with the nice summer weather, which is less conducive to reading. But I'm also finding the Captive slow sledding. Happily, I've finally gotten to a Verdurin scene featuring Charlus, and things look to be speeding up.

Charlus seems to be becoming everyone's favorite character!

Yes, Charlus is a fun character; he'd be insufferable in real life. Does everyone else hope he gets his comeuppance?

Stephen wrote: "Whoever is looking forward to more jealousy will get loads of it in The Captive. I'm about halfway through that book. I'm really slowing down. It has to do with the nice summer weather, which is le..."

I've been slowing down as well, due to nice weather and other distractions such as football (soccer) World Cup, Wimbledon and the Tour de France starting off in Yorkshire...each day I run out of time....lost time....I can just about get some reading in but find I run out of time to gather my thoughts and post anything.

Unlike you folks who have decided to slow down, I have sped up. Its really hot in Texas now and I have no interest in televised sports. I am now in the final volume and have come across what I think will become my favorite Proust quote. Writing about how the newspapers write of nothing but French victories in WWI, the narrator comments drolly, "As for myself, I was alarmed by how rapidly the theater of our victories was approaching Paris."

That's a great quote, Dave. Can't wait to get there!!

I'm not slowing down as well, I've been keeping up with the plan so far and I thank whoever it is that planned this year long read and made up the schedule as it really works out for me.

Although I'm not into sports Renato, my condolences on Brazil's loss in the World Cup.

As Stephen wrote above, the first half of "The Captive" is slow, bur the second half is quite entertaining. However, "The Fugitive" is like quicksand. Very little plot development until the last quarter of the book. Just page after page of interior monologue and worse, about the same thing over and over. My bet is that this is the make or break point for Proust readers. My response was to keep reading in larger than normal sections to get through it. Others may have different strategies. I'm a third of the was through "Time Regained" and it is quite interesting.

Thanks, Dave! I'm not into sports as well, but I have to admit that their loss was quite shocking!

Your point about The Fugitive being a make or break point for Proust's readers left me curious so I went to check stats (number of ratings) for the all the volumes here in Goodreads:

Swann's Way: 17,954
In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower: 4,067
The Guermantes Way: 2,761
Sodom and Gomorrah: 2,192
The Captive: 448
The Fugitive: 517
The Captive & The Fugitive: 1,194
Time Regained: 1,929

Interesting, Swann's Way may be rated so high because it is often assigned in literature classes. The downward trend seems to indicate people give up (not surprising). I've read somewhere that The Captive and The Fugitive are sometimes read seperately. I rated all the volumes 5 stars so far. It is Proust. The last volume may be read more frequently because there was a movie made of it. S & G has been my favorite so far.

Here in Brazil The Captive and The Fugitive are only found separately. I didn't know there was a movie made of the last volume!

Be aware that looking up the Time Regained movie info may contain SPOILERS. I believe Swann's Way was also made into a movie.

Renato wrote: "Here in Brazil The Captive and The Fugitive are only found separately. I didn't know there was a movie made of the last volume!"

I meant read separately as a "unit" apart from the rest of ISOLT.

Thanks for the warning. I won't check it out for now then! :)

I was going to watch 'Swann in Love' earlier in the year but had trouble getting it on Lovefilm so I may have to buy a copy. It's from 1984 which I keep thinking of as quite recent but it's not I guess.

I just noticed on Wikipedia that there was a 4 hour TV version of the whole of ISOLT from 2011; I doubt whether it will ever appear on UK TV.

I enjoy movies but I've given up watching movies where I loved the book. The strong visual element along with soundtrack etc always supersedes the mental images of the book. I have invested too much time and effort into creating my own ISOLT world in my mind. If somebody wants to take from me what Proust has created they are going to have to pry it from my cold, dead brain.

Haha! I have had good and bad experiences with watching film adaptations of books I've loved.

I really disliked Orson Welles' adaptation of The Trial for some reason (aside from the horrible ending). It just didn't fit with my own perception. Whereas I really enjoyed one of the War and Peace adaptations I've watched.

I'm now reading Anna Karenina, and it's bothering me cause I can't get Keira Knightley out of my head, even though I've only watched the trailer...

I watched The Trial decades ago, never read the book. All I remember is Orson Welles and a huge pile of books. Your Kera Knighly issue is exactly my problem.

There are problems with watching films of books but I often watch the film when I have no real intention of reading the book...but if the film's good I then begin to wonder just how good the book is: this was the case with Chabrol's 'Madame Bovary' but I possibly prefer the film to the book in that instance.

I liked Polanski's version of Tess of the d'Urbervilles though I haven't read the book.

Oh there are lots of films based on books I'll never read. I watch a lot of "chickflicks" with my wife that I'll never read, like "The Notebook" by Nicolas Sparks. Watched "Life of Pi" and loved it, but don't think I'd ever read the book. On the other hand I read "The Bookthief" but would not watch the movie. I also like Polanski's "Tess..." tried to read it book long ago but never got through it. A couple of years ago my wife and I took a three week roadtrip through Southern, Southwest, Western, and Midlands England and spent some time in "Hardy Country. I'm a rabid Anglophile. Based on where I've been so far I would live in Chichester if I could.

I recently (re)watched the films My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle based on Marcel Pagnol's books. These are superb films (as well as Jean de Florette) and thoroughly recommended to all Proust fans, but I've never actually read anything by him; his books are difficult to get in English - another reason to learn French.

Chichester is just along the coast from me.

I'll have to check out "My Father..." never heard of it but will look it up. I've heard of "Jean de Florette" but never watched it. I enjoy foreign films and probably watch more French films than any other. I'm a big fan of Catherine DeNeuve. I'll never learn French in this lifetime but I took a year of French in school.

Thanks for the recommendation, Jonathan. I just looked into My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle and they seem very interesting. Put them on my to-watch list. :)

In the coming days I'll be watching Der Zauberberg, a film adaptation from Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain, which is my favorite book. I decided to watch it cause I want to write a review about the book and want to make sure I haven't left out anything since I read the books some months ago and didn't take many notes. Hopefully it's a good adaptation!

Renato wrote: "Thanks for the recommendation, Jonathan. I just looked into My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle and they seem very interesting. Put them on my to-watch list. :)

In the coming days I'll be watch..."

I haven't read much Mann. I've been meaning to read 'The Magic Mountain' for years. I didn't realise there was a film of it - 19 hours long! wow! still, it looks good.

This adaptation I'm talking about is direct by Hans W. Geissendörfer has 2 versions: one is 153 min and the other, 329 min.

What is this 19 hours long version? Maybe a tv series? I haven't heard about it!

I hope you do read the book soon! I'd love to read your opinions about it, as I truly think it's magnificent!

Renato wrote: "This adaptation I'm talking about is direct by Hans W. Geissendörfer has 2 versions: one is 153 min and the other, 329 min.

What is this 19 hours long version? Maybe a tv series? I haven't heard ..."

My mistake, I just looked at the picture which was of a collection of Buddenbrooks/Magic Mountain/Dr Faustus. Still looks good though.

Back to Proust: One of my favourite 'minor' characters in this section was Mme de Citri, who finds everything a bore:

Soon, what was tedious was everything. 'Beautiful things, they're so tedious! Paintings, they're enough to drive you mad...How right you are, it's so tedious, writing letters!' In the end it was life itself that she declared to us was a bore, without one quite knowing from where she was taking her term of comparison.

She just flits in and out. I hope we see her again but I fear we won't.

Although it's amazing that the two Surgis boys had acquired different, but beautiful, characteristics from the same mother and father, I don't quite understand why it's so fascinating to the narrator (he mentions it several times) and why Charlus would find that that adds to their allure.

And what would have added to the Baron's enthusiasm would have been the discovery that the two sons of Mme de Surgis-le-Duc were sons not only of the same mother but of the same father.

Renato, One of the background books on ISOLT I've started reading mentions The Magic Mountain as one of three contenders with ISOLT as greatest novel of the Twentieth Century (the others being Ulysses and Absalom, Absalom). I tried to read it when young but didn't finish. I'll have to give it a try with my listen/read method at some point.

Jonathan wrote: "Back to Proust: One of my favourite 'minor' characters in this section was Mme de Citri, who finds everything a bore:Soon, what was tedious was everything. 'Beautiful things, they're so tedious! Pa..."

I agree Jonathan. I loved her! Proust's ability to capture "types" of people in only a sentence or two is amazing. One of the major characters of the novel is a fully developed variation of Mme. de Citri.

Jonathan wrote: "Although it's amazing that the two Surgis boys had acquired different, but beautiful, characteristics from the same mother and father, I don't quite understand why it's so fascinating to the narrator (he mentions it several times) and why Charlus would find that that adds to their allure."

I didn't get why that was so fascinating as well...


Dave wrote: "Renato, One of the background books on ISOLT I've started reading mentions The Magic Mountain as one of three contenders with ISOLT as greatest novel of the Twentieth Century (the others being Ulysses and Absalom, Absalom). I tried to read it when young but didn't finish. I'll have to give it a try with my listen/read method at some point. "

Really? I'm positively surprised! The number of best books ever lists I've seen that had The Magic Mountain listed so low... I just discredit them all! :P

I was really in awe with Absalom, Absalom! as well, what a great book! I've yet to read Ulysses... I really want to do it as a group read as from what I've seen it seems to engender lots of discussions and interpretations, so I'm hoping there'll be one of those early next year.

Jonathan wrote: "I don't quite understand why it's so fascinating to the narrator (he mentions it several times) and why Charlus would find that that adds to their allure."

I'm unsure of that myself Jonathan. However, I have been struck by the similarities between Charlus' behavior and heterosexual men's behavior (at least in the US before the Internet and sexual harassment laws changed. the playbook). Men universally "checked out" women and routinely made sexual advance (covert and overt). I remember decades ago it being a big deal when Playboy Magazine featured twin sisters on their Centerfold.

When I was in my twenties I read "The 120 Days of Sodom" by the Marquis de Sade. After that, nothing I've ever encountered in books, on TV or in the movies has seemed more than "routine" in the way of human sexuality. I won't go so far as to say that it turned into the Mme. Cipri of sexual observers, but at least into "a curious observer of the human sexuality scene."

Never read that, but I've watched Pasolini's Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom and I know what you mean...

Yep, taken from de Sade's book. The book was written in 1785 when deSade was in prison in the Bastille. In the book its 4 libertines and 24 mostly teenage boys and girls. It is written in astonishingly graphic pornographic language and is, for the most part, mechanistic and systematic - A did B to C with his left- hand, A did B to C with his right-hand. That sort of thing. It wasn't published until 1905. (in Germany I believe) and was not widely available in UK, France, and US until much later, so I doubt Proust ever saw it. I think it was banned in the US until the '50's.

re: Surgis bros. All I could think of was that for Charlus it was the novelty factor though I'm unsure why he would have been less interested if they had different mothers or fathers.

Everyone should read some de Sade at some point in their life. I read Juliette and did consider at one point in setting up a de Sade group but not sure if I want to immerse myself in his work to that extent. He's a fascinating person nonetheless.

I decided to re-read this week's section before continuing as I think I rushed the reading last week. Does anyone else do this? I find that the relatively relaxed schedule gives me the ability to do this if I wish.