Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Sodom and Gomorrah discussions through page 326 / location 33020.

The narrator gives some hints of the 'painful and perpetual mistrust which Albertine was to inspire in me'. I've found that Proust will often do this; give hints of future events so that when you read the event you have a vague feeling that you've come across it before.

It amazes me how Proust had such care for details. I don't know if I'm seeing too much here, but he tells us that Dr. Cottard had begun to specialize in toxic actions. Moments before, he "intoxicated" our narrator with feelings of distrust about Albertine, and that "intoxication" caused him to be jealous and the scenes that followed. Other analogies about love and sickness also were made. I thought that was interesting!

Jonathan wrote: "The narrator gives some hints of the 'painful and perpetual mistrust which Albertine was to inspire in me'. I've found that Proust will often do this; give hints of future events so that when you read the event you have a vague feeling that you've come across it before. "

That's well observed, Jonathan. When Dr. Cottard mentioned Albertine was a lesbian, for some reason, it didn't seem new or even odd to me; but I couldn't tell why. Has it been mentioned before in any way? Has Proust hinted to that before?

Renato wrote: "When Dr. Cottard mentioned Albertine was a lesbian, for some reason, it didn't seem new or even odd to me; but I couldn't tell why. Has it been mentioned before in any way? Has Proust hinted to that before? "

Without actually referring back there was the telephone call in last week's reading which just seemed like the narrator being neurotically obsessed about where she was and what she was doing. I guess also there's the comments from Françoise insinuating that Albertine is not to be trusted...I'll have to dig back to find anything definite though.

Renato wrote: "Moments before, he "intoxicated" our narrator with feelings of distrust about Albertine, and that "intoxication" caused him to be jealous and the scenes that followed. Other analogies about love and sickness also were made. I thought that was interesting! "

I think you've got a point there Renato, I didn't make that connection.

When discussing Albertine and her friends the narrator mentions, quite casually, that: 'I counted that, in that one season, a dozen conferred on me their ephemeral favours.' Then he remembers another and includes Albertine to make fourteen...does this mean kissing and cuddling as with Albertine? or more? I'm starting to wonder now and I'm not too sure.

I love the little conversation/argument that the narrator and Albertine have when Albertine is trying to get away to see a lady in Infreville. The narrator persistently asks questions and by answering them Albertine ties herself in knots. It's obvious to us as well as the narrator that she's not telling the truth. The conversation twists and turns beautifully, with the narrator offering to accompany her, at which point Albertine decides not to go. And so it goes until the narrator backs down but knowing that she's lying to him. Proust does this sort of dialogue so well that I wish there was more.

And then we get more dialogue with the Cambremers (not the Camemberts as the lift-boy thinks - he! he!). Is the narrator teasing Mme Cambremer-Legrandin? She likes coming out with these definitive statements about art and the narrator likes to find exceptions and confront her with them; such as her dismissal of Poussin's paintings and the narrator's comment that he was one of Degas's favourite painters.

I've really enjoyed this week's reading and it looks like a visit to the Verdurins' is imminent..that should be fun!

Jonathan wrote: "Without actually referring back there was the telephone call in last week's reading which just seemed like the narrator being neurotically obsessed about where she was and what she was doing. I guess also there's the comments from Françoise insinuating that Albertine is not to be trusted...I'll have to dig back to find anything definite though."

That part I remembered. I wasn't surprised about the alleged lesbianism though. Like I've read somewhere before. Maybe it was in an previous annotation on my edition, as it has spoiled things before...

Jonathan wrote: "When discussing Albertine and her friends the narrator mentions, quite casually, that: 'I counted that, in that one season, a dozen conferred on me their ephemeral favours.' Then he remembers another and includes Albertine to make fourteen...does this mean kissing and cuddling as with Albertine? or more? I'm starting to wonder now and I'm not too sure."

At first I assumed it was more than that, but then, thinking of the number of girls mentioned, I figured it had to be just kissing and cuddling... and with Albertine, was it just kissing and cuddling? I always thought it was sex with her.

Jonathan wrote: "And then we get more dialogue with the Cambremers (not the Camemberts as the lift-boy thinks - he! he!). Is the narrator teasing Mme Cambremer-Legrandin? She likes coming out with these definitive ..."

He was definitely teasing her! And it was so much fun. I laughed several times during that visit. This was also very funny:

"Besides, having those very vague ideas of nobility, and of the names of which titles are composed, which are shared by many people who are not lift-boys, the name Camembert had seemed to him all the more probable inasmuch as, that cheese being universally known, it was not in the least surprising that people should have acquired a marquisate from so glorious a distinction, unless it were the marquisate that had bestowed its renown upon the cheese."

And, like you mentioned, the visit to the Verdurins should be another fun moment, for sure!

Jonathan wrote: "I love the little conversation/argument that the narrator and Albertine have when Albertine is trying to get away to see a lady in Infreville. The narrator persistently asks questions and by answer..."

I loved it as well! And it just goes to show once more how manipulative he can be! Remember when he visited St. Loup in Donciéres to get him to put him in good terms with Oriane?

Renato wrote: "At first I assumed it was more than that, but then, thinking of the number of girls mentioned, I figured it had to be just kissing and cuddling... and with Albertine, was it just kissing and cuddling? I always thought it was sex with her. "

Given that this volume started off with the narrator peeping on a homosexual liaison where there was no doubt what was going on I can't see why Proust/the narrator would be so circumspect about the narrator's and Albertine's relationship if there was more to it. So, I'm tempted to think if it says that they're tickling & kissing then that is what they're doing...but then the doubts set in - are we supposed to assume that it leads to more? But would the narrator go that far with Françoise likely to barge in at any moment?

Renato wrote: "He was definitely teasing her! And it was so much fun. I laughed several times during that visit. This was also very funny: ..."

And also the bit where Mme de Cambremer-Legrandin (I think we should just call her Camembert from now on in these posts :-) ) asks 'Ah, so you've been in Holland. Do you know the Vermeers?' I especially liked the fact that no-one, except our wise narrator, noticed that Albertine misunderstood the question and didn't have a clue who Vermeer was.

I think my favourite quote from this week's reading was this:

Then came the deglutition of saliva, and the old lady instinctively wiped the stubble of her toothbrush moustache with her handkerchief.

Surely deglutition is a made up word? Well, my kindle dictionary gives the definition simply as 'the action or process of swallowing', from French déglutition, so presumably this was in the original French - I may check it out if I feel like it. deglutition is not in my physical dictionary though. I like the image of a 'toothbrush moustache' as well!

Ok, en français it's:

Puis vint la déglutition de la salive, et la vieille dame essuya instinctivement la légère brosse, dite à l'américaine de sa moustache avec son mouchoir.

And Google's slightly garbled translation is:

Then came the swallowing of saliva, and the old lady instinctively wiped lightly brush, called the U.S. of his mustache with his handkerchief.

I wonder what the significance of 'à l'américaine' is in the original?

Jonathan wrote: "Given that this volume started off with the narrator peeping on a homosexual liaison where there was no doubt what was going on I can't see why Proust/the narrator would be so circumspect about the narrator's and Albertine's relationship if there was more to it. So, I'm tempted to think if it says that they're tickling & kissing then that is what they're doing...but then the doubts set in - are we supposed to assume that it leads to more? But would the narrator go that far with Françoise likely to barge in at any moment?"

That's a good point you make about him being circumspect about it, Jonathan. I remembered on the first evening Albertine visited him that apparently all he got was to kiss her on the cheeks. For some reason I just assumed it would evolve to sex. Naughty me!


Jonathan wrote: "Surely deglutition is a made up word? Well, my kindle dictionary gives the definition simply as 'the action or process of swallowing', from French déglutition, so presumably this was in the original French - I may check it out if I feel like it. deglutition is not in my physical dictionary though. I like the image of a 'toothbrush moustache' as well!"

I liked that quote you shared as well! I wasn't aware the word "deglutition" was made up. In Portuguese we have "deglutição", and using Google Translator it gives "swallowing" only as a result.

Jonathan wrote: "I think my favourite quote from this week's reading was this:Then came the deglutition of saliva, and the old lady instinctively wiped the stubble of her toothbrush moustache with her handkerchief...."

This conversation was a high part of the Audio Book. To hear the Marquise slurping and gurggling had me in stitches.

Jonathan wrote: "I wonder what the significance of 'à l'américaine' is in the original?"

Apparently l'américaine designates a mustache style.

Renato wrote: "I liked that quote you shared as well! I wasn't aware the word "deglutition" was made up. In Portuguese we have "deglutição", and using Google Translator it gives "swallowing" only as a result. ..."

It seems that deglutition is a proper word in English, it was just that I'd never heard of it and it sounded made up to me! :-) It's in the dictionary and ultimately has a Latin root. It's just not an everyday word in English. Is "deglutição" a common word in Portuguese?

It's fairly common!

Dave wrote: "This conversation was a high part of the Audio Book. To hear the Marquise slurping and gurggling had me in stitches."

Hahaha I can imagine. I laughed out loud several times while reading it!

Dave, I was gonna joke that I was wondering if you were reading out posts but not replying anything because we were too wrong in our opinions, now that you've finished and know better! :P

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "This conversation was a high part of the Audio Book. To hear the Marquise slurping and gurggling had me in stitches."

Hahaha I can imagine. I laughed out loud several times while read..."

I've been following the posts and found them interesting and insightful. But when you get to the posts I made on S & G in the last week you will see I didn't have much to say about this week's read.. I am glad you both seem to be enjoying the read. I wish some of the other group members would jump in with comments.

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Given that this volume started off with the narrator peeping on a homosexual liaison where there was no doubt what was going on I can't see why Proust/the narrator would be so circ..."

I thought I would extend Jonathan's good point about the first hand observation that opens S & G vs Albertine and the narrator by suggesting you keep mental track, beginning with Cottard's observation, concerning what does the Narrator/reader know about Albertine, what is the basis of that knowledge and how reliable do you consider various sources to be? It took me a long time to start tracking those questions and I had to do a lot of backtracking. Just trying to save you the bother by starting now.

Has any mention been made of Swann's death? If so, any thoughts?

This probably should go last week, but what the heck. As the narrator grieves his grandmother's death he asks his mother for a copy of "Thousand and One Nights." Strange book for a man to ask his mother for! Especially when mother knows what it is about. As the story moves forward, Thousand and One Nights becomes one of the most frequently cited books. As you come across these references, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that book's significance and how your thoughts change, if they change. I'm still trying to figure this out.

Dave wrote: "Has any mention been made of Swann's death? If so, any thoughts?"

Yes, wasn't Swann's death mentioned at the end of Guermantes Way? I found it interesting that when the narrator was having a chat with Swann at the Guermantes' shindig Swann almost downplayed his illness, almost to say it wasn't as bad as all that - I'd have to find the correct passage to back this up though. I wasn't sure if it was just Swann not wanting people to treat him differently or if his illness really wasn't so bad.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Has any mention been made of Swann's death? If so, any thoughts?"

Yes, wasn't Swann's death mentioned at the end of Guermantes Way? I found it interesting that when the narrator was h..."

No, I remember that, What I'm thinking of is in this volume, I'm just not sure where. Just wanted to make sure we hadn't past it as I think its worth a brief discussion.

Dave wrote: "This probably should go last week, but what the heck. As the narrator grieves his grandmother's death he asks his mother for a copy of "Thousand and One Nights." Strange book for a man to ask his m..."

I'll have to admit that I didn't think there was too much significance with this except for the fact of the two editions - the older children's version and the more modern risque version. I'm intrigued now though. Why would it be strange to request it from his mother?

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Has any mention been made of Swann's death? If so, any thoughts?"

Yes, wasn't Swann's death mentioned at the end of Guermantes Way? I found it interesting that when t..."

This weekend I shall probably skim over this week's reading before advancing on to next week's. I'll watch out for these questions Dave.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "This probably should go last week, but what the heck. As the narrator grieves his grandmother's death he asks his mother for a copy of "Thousand and One Nights." Strange book for a man..."

I'm sure we are dealing with the uncensured version. I believe it was illustrated too. When the explorer Richard Burton translated and published that version it caused a ruckous. I'm not sure which is stranger, for him to ask her for the book, or her to give it to him (BAM, BAM, BAM MARCEL, what the hell are you doing locked in that room with that book? You've been in there for an hour! Do I have to get Francoise up here to unlock this door?) Well, perhaps there are some limits to our narrator's sense of modesty.

Anyway, I think the significance of TAON may have to do at least as much with the structure of that book as content. But I'm still trying to sort it out. This issue continues to the end.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Has any mention been made of Swann's death? If so, any thoughts?"

Yes, wasn't Swann's death mentioned at the end of Guermantes Way? I found it interestin..."

I searched for it in my ebook. What I'm referring to in still ahead in this volume, sorry.

Dave wrote: "This probably should go last week, but what the heck. As the narrator grieves his grandmother's death he asks his mother for a copy of "Thousand and One Nights." ....."

A favorite reoccurring theme....

"Soon he (Proust) added novels by Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, as well as The Arabian Nights. He later remembered these enchanting Oriental tales, which filled his 'adolescence with wonder,' when he began his own nocturnal narrative. (Footnote 111) Carter, "Marcel Proust: A Life"


[image error]"Aladin ou la lampe merveilleuse". Epoque Lebeuf.
http://amisfaiencefine.fr/AV-141-Mont...

Carter's Footnote 111:
"SL 2: 40. Proust read The Arabian Nights in Antoine Galland's translation. At Illiers, he had been able to contemplate scenes from the story on the Creil plates in his Aunt Amiot’s dining room. Proust saw the Narrator as a modern Scheherazade, the creator of the Arabian tales of his era."

Marcel Proust: A Life, with a New Preface by the Author
William C. Carter (page 79)
http://books.google.com/books?id=aYaT...


https://www.flickr.com/photos/5136674...

"LES MILLE ET UNE NUITS" by Antoine Galland

GALLAND, Antoine - Les Mille et une Nuits. Contes arabes. Édition illustrée.
Paris, Bourdin, s. d. [1840]. 3 volumes


Contes arabes traduits en français par Antoine Galland, Paris : Hachette, 1865.
http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/gran...

From the BnF's exhibition "Marcel Proust: Writing and the Arts:"
"Proust, the child, reads in particular, Thousand and One Nights, that he will present, as a model for Remembrance of Things Past...." BnF
http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/angl...

French: http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/
English: http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/angl...


An important passage, from Swann's Way:

"I feel that there is much to be said for the Celtic belief that the souls of those whom we have lost are held captive in some inferior being, in an animal, in a plant, in some inanimate object, and thus effectively lost to us until the day (which to many never comes) when we happen to pass by the tree or to obtain possession of the object which forms their prison. Then they start and tremble, they call us by our name, and as soon as we have recognised their voice the spell is broken. Delivered by us, they have overcome death and return to share our life." MP (SW)

Whenever I read this ("...to obtain possession of the object which forms their prison.), I flash back to story of "Aladdin" and the genie, hidden in the lamp.

Interestingly, "Aladdin" wasn't in the earlier Arabian Nights, Antoine Galland added it, for the first time, to his translation.

One can spend weeks on the research; a good place to begin would be in the BnF.
From John Payne's papers, regarding Antoine Galland's translation:

"...Diary regularly kept by Galland, the last four volumes (1708-15) of which are preserved in the Bibliotheque Nationale.
These extracts effectually settle the question of the origin of the interpolated tales, as will be seen from the following abstract.

"On the 25th March, 1709, Galland records having that day made the acquaintance of a Maronite scholar, by name Youhenna Diab, [12] who had been brought from Aleppo to Paris by Paul Lucas, the celebrated traveller, and with whom he evidently at once broached the question of the Nights, [13] ...

"whereupon Hanna (as he always calls him) appears to have volunteered to help him to fill the lacune by furnishing him with suitable Oriental stories for translation in the same style as those already rendered by him and then and there (says Galland) 'told me some very fine Arabian tales, which he promised to put into writing for me.'


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...

"There is no fresh entry on the subject till There is no fresh entry on the subject till May 5 following, when (says Galland) 'The Maronite Hanna finished telling me the tale of the Lamp.' [14]

Galland writes in his diary "entry of November 3, 1710,
'Began yesterday to read the Arabian story of the Lamp, which had been written me in Arabic more than a year ago by the Maronite of Damascus [16] whom M. Lucas brought with him, with a view to putting it into French. Finished reading it this morning. Here is the title of this tale, "Story of Aladdin, son of a tailor, and that which befell him with an African Magician on account of (or through) a lamp." '"


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...

http://al-hakawati.net/english/storie... (page 3-4)
and
http://www.wollamshram.ca/1001/Payne/...

"In Search of Lost Time"...forces detours.
The Arabian Nights thread is but one journey.


Does he look familiar?

"The Arabian Nights"
BBC-45 minutes
Melvyn Bragg discusses the myths, tales and legends of the Arabian Nights.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0081kdb

As always Marcelita, you provide the most fascinating background info. Thank you.

Dave wrote: "BAM, BAM, BAM MARCEL, what the hell are you doing locked in that room with that book? You've been in there for an hour! Do I have to get Francoise up here to unlock this door?"

LOL! I've been meaning to read it for quite some time; I didn't know it was that kind of book though...

Marcelita, great info and fascinating pictures, thanks a lot!!

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "BAM, BAM, BAM MARCEL, what the hell are you doing locked in that room with that book? You've been in there for an hour! Do I have to get Francoise up here to unlock this door?"

LOL! I've been meaning to read it for quite some time;

Ha, keep in mind Renato, what was shocking and steamy in ISOLT time would not even get a second glance today.

That's a good point!

Renato wrote: "Marcelita, great info and fascinating pictures, thanks a lot!!"

The photo of Reynaldo Hahn, dressed in "Arab" costume, is curious.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...

The Camembert spittle had me in stitches ... as does all the great commentary here.

The scene with the elevator boy who never closes doors cracks me up, too.

Also intrigued by issues of communication here, specifically how the narrator mentions that "social conversation" reduces us to a "'mean level'" ... and how the narrator speaks in a language he knows the Cambremers will understand (simile and metaphor, art) even if it's somewhat mockingly.

Dwayne wrote: "Also intrigued by issues of communication here," Insightful comment Dwayne. Your comment inspired my own Proustian memory recall of the line from "Cool Hand Luke" "What we have here is a failure to communicate." A universal commentary on human affairsperhaps, and as relevant in Proust as elsewhere.

Late to the party, but after reading everyone's comments, I have to add that my favorite part in this week's reading was his description of drinking to get his gumption up.

"...I drank, one after another, seven or eight glasses of port wine. At once, instead of the impassable gulf between my desire and action, the effect of the alcohol traced a line that joined them together. No longer was there any room for hesitation or fear. ...there was no longer any obstacle to the conjunction of our two bodies. No obstacle for me, at least. For they had not been volatilized for her, who had not been drinking port wine."

Hahahahaha!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Late to the party, but after reading everyone's comments, I have to add that my favorite part in this week's reading was his description of drinking to get his gumption up.

"...I drank, one after ..."
lol, I had forgotten that! Our narrator is such a stud wannabie! He misses the goal with every kick!

LOL I had also forgotten that!

Welcome back, Sunny!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Late to the party, but after reading everyone's comments, I have to add that my favorite part in this week's reading was his description of drinking to get his gumption up.

"...I drank, one after ..."

Ha!Ha! Yes, that's a great part. The narrator seems quite capable of downing the booze when he needs to.

And I often wonder, do they really just drink orangeade at their soirees?

I'm guessing the orangeade is for the soirees and the port wine is at the bar. LOL!