Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Sodom and Gomorrah discussions through page 407 / location 34100.

Dave, turns out Swann's death was mentioned in this week's read. It was such a brief comment that I re-read it to see if I wasn't imagining things. It was interesting how he simply mentioned it while talking about something else.

Renato wrote: "Dave, turns out Swann's death was mentioned in this week's read. It was such a brief comment that I re-read it to see if I wasn't imagining things. It was interesting how he simply mentioned it whi..."

Ah, here we go. Thanks Renato. Are you referring to the sentence which begins "She even mentioned her name...."?

In my edition, there is some confusion about Bloch's sister or cousin having an affair with the actress.

First, when the narrator mentions that he and Albertine were in the ballroom of the casino, it says Bloch's cousin was living with the actress. Later, when talking about the scandal that occurred at the Grand Hotel, it's mentioned that it's the sister who's having the affair.

Does that happen in your editions as well or is mine fucked up?

Dave wrote: "Renato wrote: "Dave, turns out Swann's death was mentioned in this week's read. It was such a brief comment that I re-read it to see if I wasn't imagining things. It was interesting how he simply m..."

Yes, here it is:

“She had even mentioned her name in the course of a visit of condolence which she had paid to Mme. Swann after the death of her husband, and had asked whether she knew them.”

I remember the section you are talking about, but that is not where I am referencing. I realize you are reading a Portuguese translation, could you translate the couple of lines that refer to Swann's death?

"She had even mentioned her name in the course of a visit of condolence which she had paid to Mme. Swann after the death of her husband, and had asked whether she knew them.”

Yes, that is it. Note who "she" and who "her" in the sentence refer to in context of surrounding text.

What do you mean? Here it's that section:

So far, this social success latent in the Verdurins was revealed by two facts only. In the first place, Mme. Verdurin would say of the Principessa di Caprarola: "Ah! She is intelligent, she is a charming woman. What I cannot endure, are the imbeciles, the people who bore me, they drive me mad." Which would have made anybody at all perspicacious realise that the Principessa di Caprarola, a woman who moved in the highest society, had called upon Mme. Verdurin. She (Principessa di Caprarola) had even mentioned her name (Mme. Verdurin) in the course of a visit of condolence which she (Principessa di Caprarola) had paid to Mme. Swann after the death of her (Mme. Swann's) husband, and had asked whether she (Mme. Swann) knew them. “What name did you say?" Odette had asked, with a sudden wistfulness. "Verdurin? Oh, yes, of course," she had continued in a plaintive tone, "I don't know them, or rather, I know them without really knowing them, they are people I used to meet at people's houses, years ago, they are quite nice." When the Principessa di Caprarola had gone, Odette would fain have spoken the bare truth.

Did I miss something?

No you have missed nothing. Your initial reaction was the same as mine - and is effect that Proust intends - a very casual, offhand reference to Swann's death that might be missed by a casual reader. But the significance is not in the detail of disclosure but the context. The occasion of disclosure (a condolence call on Odette following the death). And the larger context in the social rise of the Verdurins which is being discussed at length before and after the section you quote.

This section, centered on the way Swann's death is revealed, is something to reflect on at the end of the ISOLT.

I also love Odette's initial and then reflective reponse to whether she knows the Verdurins - considering she met Swann at the Verdurins in the Swann in Love section of Swann's Way.

Oh yes, I found it very interesting and totally unexpected! A character who was once so important was "killed off" so nonchalantly. Like you said, it was very casual.

I thought Proust would write more about it - he's never predictable, is he? He spent pages talking about etymology and place names and then "oh by the way Swann's dead".

Renato wrote: "Oh yes, I found it very interesting and totally unexpected! A character who was once so important was "killed off" so nonchalantly. Like you said, it was very casual.

I thought Proust would write ..."

Your comment made me smile Renato, I remember thinking exactly the same thing! But I have changed my mind and I expect you will too.

The entire section with Mademoiselle Marie Gineste and Madame Céleste Albaret was so good! The dialogues were so entertaining. Was Proust making fun of himself with some of those comments? Haha!

“Oh! Little black devil with hair of jet, O profound wickedness! I don't know what your mother was thinking of when she made you, for you are just like a bird. Look, Marie, wouldn't you say he was preening his feathers, and turning his head right round, so light he looks, you would say he was just learning to fly. Ah! It's fortunate for you that those who bred you brought you into the world to rank and riches; what would ever have become of you, so wasteful as you are. Look at him throwing away his crescent because it touched the bed. There he goes, now, look, he's spilling his milk, wait till I tie a napkin round you, for you could never do it for yourself, never in my life have I seen anyone so helpless and so clumsy as you.”

Céleste was Proust’s housekeeper in his last years while he was working on ISOLT, right? He must have really liked her!

Also:

“They will never read any books, but neither will they ever write any.”

I have one link for you, Proust:

Somehow I missed that, thanks Renato. I have Monsieur Proust on order with Amazon.

Renato wrote: "The entire section with Mademoiselle Marie Gineste and Madame Céleste Albaret was so good! The dialogues were so entertaining. Was Proust making fun of himself with some of those comments? Haha!..."

Ah...one of the most interesting passages, as he uses both their real names!
Thinking about the "power struggle" with the napkin...which reminds me of Proust's own defiance in seeking medical help, in the last weeks if his life.

“'But, Céleste, you know he doesn’t like having a napkin when he’s eating.' 'It isn’t that he doesn’t like it, it’s so that he can say nobody can make him do anything he doesn’t want to. He’s a grand gentleman and he wants to show that he is.'" MP

From Carter's biography, "Marcel Proust: A Life."
"On November 9, Céleste’s sister Marie Gineste arrived in Paris.
Three years older than Céleste, Marie became a permanent part of Proust’s household and relieved her sister of many duties, primarily errands and shopping done in the daytime, when Céleste needed to sleep."
[...]
"In the beginning Marie came only at lunch and stayed until the the evening. Céleste sensed that Proust was jealous of Marie. She knew his reaction came from 'the possessive side of him; the fonder I was of my sister, the less affection there was for him.'
[...]
"Cocteau sent a note saying that next to Marcel’s books all others seemed 'boring.' Among the pages Jean particularly admired were those on Céleste, 'which are of a celestial poetry.' Proust paid tribute to Céleste and her sister, Marie Gineste, in a humorous passage in which the two meet the Narrator at Balbec, where the sisters are staying in the servants’ quarters, performing the service of messengers."
Carter, "Marcel Proust: A Life"
http://books.google.com/books?id=NxTa...

More excerpts from that rare passage:

"...I had very soon formed a mutual bond of friendship, as strong as it was pure, with these two young persons, Mlle Marie Gineste and Mme Céleste Albaret. [...] With a familiarity which I reproduce verbatim, notwithstanding the eulogies (which I set down here in praise not of myself but of the strange genius of Céleste) ... while I dipped croissants in my milk, Céleste would say to me:

"'Oh! little black devil with raven hair, oh deep-eyed mischief! I don't know what your mother was thinking of when she made you, you're just like a bird. Look, Marie, wouldn't you say he was preening his feathers, and the supple way he turns his head right around, he looks so light, you'd think he was just learning to fly. [...] Look, his hair's standing on end, puffing out with rage like a bird's feathers. Poor feather-pether! [...] Oh, what a bag of tricks! Oh, the soft talk, the deceitfulness! Ah, rogue among rouges, churl of churls! Ah, Molière!' (This was the only writer's name she knew, but she applied it to me, meaning thereby a person who was capable both of writing plays and of acting them.)" MP pp 332-334.


Céleste Albaret

Renato wrote: "The entire section with Mademoiselle Marie Gineste and Madame Céleste Albaret was so good! The dialogues were so entertaining. Was Proust making fun of himself with some of those comments? Haha!..."

I really liked this little episode as well. In fact, I tend to like the episodes with the 'lower orders' such as Françoise, the lift-boy etc. I hope we can include Monsieur Proust in next year's reading...assuming we continue.

I expect Proust liked being talked about.

Thanks for the info and photo of Céleste, Marcelita. I imagined her much older.

What are we to make of the 'unknown woman', as Proust-the-tease describes her several times, who is 'much more beautiful than Albertine'? She has eyes that 'scattered rays so geometrically luminous that one was reminded, on meeting her gaze, of some constellation.' She seems to already know Albertine...or is that just the narrator getting paranoid? Anyway, I suspect we'll find out more about her.

I'm only halfway through this week's reading, but my favourite quote, so far, is:

This rubicund youth, with his blunt features, appeared for all the world to have a tomato instead of a head.

The tomato-head twins, Tomato No. 1 & No.2...I had to laugh at this part. I feel that Proust is having quite a bit of fun with this volume. Do others feel the same way?

Dave wrote: "No you have missed nothing. Your initial reaction was the same as mine - and is effect that Proust intends - a very casual, offhand reference to Swann's death that might be missed by a casual reade..."

Is it something that seemed significant when you read it or nearer the end of ISOLT?

The sentences following this part suggests that Odette is partly afraid of Mme Verdurin and her rise. I can't remember now, but I thought Odette was still 'in' with the Verdurins even though she had a rival salon.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "No you have missed nothing. Your initial reaction was the same as mine - and is effect that Proust intends - a very casual, offhand reference to Swann's death that might be missed by a..."

No, there are connection of characters thru, while interesting, is not what is significant. But "Swann forgotten" by everyone (including his wife) and the shifting position of various characters in society are two pieces of the puzzle of one of the largest "messages" of the novel.

Two interesting details, the disclosure of Swann's death comes at almost the exact center of the novel (3 1/2 volumes before 3 1/2 volumes to go - although the last three volumes are shorter). Also, according to Patrick Alexander (Field Guide to ISOLT) the character of Principesse de Capriola's only apparent purpose is to make the condolence call which discloses Swann's death and to link Odette to Mme Verdurin. She appears no where else in ISOLT.

Jonathan wrote: "The sentences following this part suggests that Odette is partly afraid of Mme Verdurin and her rise. I can't remember now, but I thought Odette was still 'in' with the Verdurins even though she had a rival salon. "

The way Odette initially is uncertain who the Verdurin's are suggests to me that they no longer associate with each other. Odette may be reluctant to have people recall her previous association with them before her marriage.

I love Proust's throw away line when Odette finally says confidently that she knows them "very well" AS A GREAT LADY WOULD ADMIT THAT SHE HAD TAKEN THE TRAM. LOL

Wow! Cottard REALLY does like his 'Wednesdays' doesn't he?

One Wednesday, their old cook having cut open a vein in her arm, Cottard, already in his dinner-jacket to go to the Verdurins', had shrugged his shoulders when his wife had timidly inquired whether he could not bandage the wound: "Of course I can't, Léontine," he had groaned, "can't you see I've got my white waistcoat on?"

You wouldn't want him as your doctor, would you? At least, not on a Wednesday.

Thanks for the info on Céleste and Marie, Marcelita! I can't wait to read Carter's book!

I remember you mentioned in a previous topic that the scene with de Charlus and Morel in the train platform (the one Charlus asks the narrator to go talk to Morel - is that the scene you meant?) was one of your favorites. Am I correct? We read it this week, but I'm worried I missed something about it as at first it didn't seem really important to me. Can you enlighten us a little bit about that, please?

Jonathan wrote: "Wow! Cottard REALLY does like his 'Wednesdays' doesn't he?"

We have to get ourselves in in one those those evenings, Jonathan. They must be amazing! First, the duc wants no news about his dying cousin so, if he really dies, he won't have to mourn him and miss a party. And now dr. Cottard...

Renato wrote: "Thanks for the info on Céleste and Marie, Marcelita! I can't wait to read Carter's book!

I remember you mentioned in a previous topic that the scene with de Charlus and Morel in the train platform..."

Hum...no, that is not my favorite, but I do like Charlus' generosity and style in picking up Morel.
I have a grand scene in mind, which is coming up in a few weeks.

Marcelita wrote: "Hum...no, that is not my favorite, but I do like Charlus' generosity and style in picking up Morel.
I have a grand scene in mind, which is coming up in a few weeks...with a side dish of pears. ..."

Sounds intriguing Marcelita...I think Sodom & Gomorrah may be my favourite volume so far! I get the feeling that Proust is writing in a more fluid way and he seems to be enjoying himself more.

Marcelita wrote: "Hum...no, that is not my favorite, but I do like Charlus' generosity and style in picking up Morel.
I have a grand scene in mind, which is coming up in a few weeks."

Ops, I mixed things up then, sorry! Looking forward to that scene that is coming though.

In the part where they're all off to the Verdurins from the train station it's only the narrator who has any interest in the countryside and the views. Princess Sherbatoff thinks he's too enthusiastic and Cottard thinks he should take up knitting :-) as a sort of sedative...he! he!

I pointed out to the Princess every tree, every little house smothered in its mantle of roses, I made her admire everything, I would have liked to take her in my arms and press her to my heart.

The others just want to get to the food! This reminds me of people who've just returned from holiday and in reply to my question, "How was it?" will launch in to telling me what they ate!! Still it's nice to be outside for a brief period...it makes me realise how much of the novel takes place in salons and bedrooms.

Jonathan wrote: "it's only the narrator who has any interest in the countryside and the views." Your comment Jonathan reminded me of some of the things Alain de Botton writes of in "How Proust Can Change Your Life."

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "it's only the narrator who has any interest in the countryside and the views." Your comment Jonathan reminded me of some of the things Alain de Botton writes of in "How Proust Can ..."

Yes, the de Botton book highlights these sorts of episodes from ISOLT.

I also noticed that in this section as well as next week's he attributes these 'pure' and 'good' qualities of himself to his grandmother's influence.

Jonathan wrote: "he attributes these 'pure' and 'good' qualities of himself to his grandmother's influence. " Another keen insight Jonathan on the narrator's part as well as your own in picking up on it." Grandmother's influence is something to look for on a continuing basis.

Jonathan wrote: "I'm only halfway through this week's reading, but my favourite quote, so far, is:This rubicund youth, with his blunt features, appeared for all the world to have a tomato instead of a head.The toma..."

Oh my god! The story of Tomato 1 and Tomato 2. I can't stop giggling about it. LOL!

David Richardson - http://resemblancetheportraits.blogsp...

I'm guessing that the tomato on the LHS is the one that was 'not averse to complying with the tastes of certain gentlemen' and that the tomato on the RHS is the one that gave M. Bernard a black eye. :-) It's enough to put anyone off tomatoes...

Brilliant! Thanks, Renato!

I'm finding everyone's comments about the nonchalant mention of Swann's death fascinating. We already knew that Swann was ill and on his way out, so for some reason, the statement wasn't shocking to me at all - it was like I knew about it already.

But, this part did prompt something of an involuntary memory for me. I didn't notice it until reading your comments. During that whole section, I was focused on how much the 'mood' of the story at this point - his obsessive worrying about Albertine's possible lesbianism, the frantic retelling of different trips and conversations on the train, his visit to the Verdurins, etc. - it was all mirroring Swann's frantic search for Odette that night that she didn't show up at the Verdurins. Now that I've gone back to see where that mention was, I wonder if it was exactly that comment that brought to my mind the comparison...

Sunny wrote: "Now that I've gone back to see where that mention was, I wonder if it was exactly that comment that brought to my mind the comparison." Keen observation Sunny!

That's a great observation indeed! In the moment the narrator's actions and thoughts were echoing so much Swann's it's when we learn he was dead.

Renato wrote: "

David Richardson - http://resemblancetheportraits.blogsp..."

David Richardson had a limited edition of "Resemblance" published last year, celebrating the 100th Anniversary of "Swann's Way."

David has several sites on the internet; here is one which features all the characters on one page:
http://www.davidwesleyrichardson.com/...

Another:
http://resemblancetheportraits.blogsp...

There is also a YouTube site:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3snC2is...

Octave is a favorite....