Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Sodom and Gomorrah discussions through page 489 / location 35180.

This week's reading works out quite well as it covers nearly all of the soiree at the Verdurins'. I sometimes wonder just why some of these people turn up to these dinner parties at all though. Presumably the narrator is there to see if Mme Putbus is attending (with her maid). He says that if she isn't then it will be safe to take Albertine there, but does it mean that if they were there then he would attend in future without Albertine...but then what would Albertine be getting up to when he's not keeping track of her?

And why does Charlus turn up? Presumably just so he can be with Morel I guess. I suppose it's somewhere he can be more relaxed than at the family shindigs.

It doesn't take long for Charlus's arrogance to come out though. He's quite obsequious at first but it doesn't take long for him to start acting superior. When M. Verdurin is getting in a muddle over the seating arrangements and calls him 'only a baron' he blusters 'I could see at a glance that you were out of your depth.' He also starts showing off his ancestry to everyone.

The thing that really struck me about the Verdurins' party was how offensive everyone was to each other: as mentioned Charlus to M. Verdurin; Cottard to M. Camembert (er Cambremer) over trional where Cottard refutes everything that the other says; Mme Verdurin bitching about everyone as usual, especially those that are no longer one of the faithful such as Swann or the dead Dechambre, but also the faithful as well; M. Verdurin's abusive treatment of poor old Saniette etc. I'm sure there are more, but why doesn't anyone take umbrage at these comments? I always got the idea from 19th century novels that they'd feel slighted at a funny look, let alone being verbally abused in public.

I guess they all deserve each other - they're horrible people but it's fun to read.

Jonathan wrote: "And why does Charlus turn up? Presumably just so he can be with Morel I guess. " I think you are right on the money on Charlus's motivation.

Jonathan wrote: "When M. Verdurin is getting in a muddle over the seating arrangements and calls him 'only a baron' he blusters 'I could see at a glance that you were out of your depth.' I found myself wondering why Charlus was so subdued during dinner and was pleased to see him get all riled up about the seating arrangement.

In the reading I've done since finishing, I found the passage where Charlus gets upset at "just a Baron" is cited as the clearest evidence that Charlus' charachter was based in part on the Duc de Saint Simon. Saint Simon was extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to his position or prerogatives as a Duc. His Memoirs are full of rants about such matters. Sain Simon also went on and on about his ancestral links to title apparently.

Dave wrote: "In the reading I've done since finishing, I found the passage where Charlus gets upset at "just a Baron" is cited as the clearest evidence that Charlus' charachter was based in part on the Duc de Saint Simon."

Thanks for the info Dave. Is this the Louis de Rouvroy, duc de Saint-Simon here? Proust also mentions Saint-Simon in this section in connection with him sitting whilst Mme Verdurin is standing.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "In the reading I've done since finishing, I found the passage where Charlus gets upset at "just a Baron" is cited as the clearest evidence that Charlus' charachter was based in part on..."

Yes Jonathan, that's him. I bought his complete memoirs for a few dollars on Amazon in the ebook version.

Jonathan wrote: "Mme Verdurin really tries to put the narrator off going to see the Cambremers...it's full of bores...you won't sleep for a week. Then she tries to put him off going to Rivebelle...the woman's a blo..."

Mme. Verdurin and her tight control over her clan seems to serve Proust quite well as a plot device. Their fear of incurring her wraith keeps them coming back and prevents them from "wandering around" to other social groups Proust would have to write about. Her insistence that they all arrive and depart at the same time creates "travel scenes" where characters converse and develop other story lines as the travel to and from the Verdurin's. Interestingly, Charlus, and the Narrator seem to operate outside Mme. Verdurin's control. A Jonathan pointed out, Charlus is there for Morel. He seems to fel he is bestowing a favor on the Verdurins. The Narrator's motivation (other than a place to take Albertine) to attend and remain is less clear t me. That Mme Verdurin also has plans for Morel creates conflict that builds into the next volume.

And marriage to Albertine was brought up as well. Will they or won't they? His mother doesn't exactly sound enthusiastic about it.

Jonathan wrote: "And marriage to Albertine was brought up as well. Will they or won't they? His mother doesn't exactly sound enthusiastic about it."

Did you read to the end of S&G?

Dave wrote: "Yes Jonathan, that's him. I bought his complete memoirs for a few dollars on Amazon in the ebook version. "

I recently read The Sun King by Nancy Mitford which was a good gossipy account of Louis XIV's court.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Yes Jonathan, that's him. I bought his complete memoirs for a few dollars on Amazon in the ebook version. "

I recently read The Sun King by Nancy Mitford which was a g..."

I've got that on my list, Nancy Mitford's books are great.

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "And marriage to Albertine was brought up as well. Will they or won't they? His mother doesn't exactly sound enthusiastic about it."

Did you read to the end of S&G?"

No, I only read to the end of Chapter Two which encroaches into next week's reading. I've looked at the last sentence of S&G though! It still doesn't mean that he will. We know how he loses interest quite quickly. :-)

...M. de Charlus led me into a corner to have a word with me, not without feeling my muscles, which is a German habit.

er...what? Are there any Germans here to verify this? I wonder though, does he just mean that thing where someone clasps your arm quite firmly when they're leading you somewhere? It's usually quite scary no matter who does it.

Jonathan wrote: "...M. de Charlus led me into a corner to have a word with me, not without feeling my muscles, which is a German habit.er...what? Are there any Germans here to verify this? I wonder though, does he ..."

Hmmm, I seem to have missed this detail. Charlus' behavior (whether Germanic or not) seems predictable. That our sickly narrator would have muscles seems improbable. lol

Jonathan, I was wondering the same: why do these people go to these parties? And especially when it comes to Saniette. M. Verdurin is so rude to him all the time but still he values so much being there among them. I felt sorry for Saniette at first, but then he got on my nerves... if he wants to take that abuse, so be it...

I was surprised to see how Charlus still actively pursues men even though his homosexuality has been talked about here and there. I figured that if he wanted to really hide it, he'd be more cautious about it. Instead, he's following Morel to the Verdurins who I think would have no problem with spreading around the "rumor" about him. Not that I'm complaining about it - it was real fun witnessing Charlus so out of his element, feeling kind of insecure and the opposite of how he normally acts on dinner parties. Of course, as Jonathan mentioned, in no time he starts acting superior again.

Also, still about his sexuality, it was pretty funny what Charlus went through: first misinterpreting Cottard's wink and then the whole 'one of us' confusion that started with this:

"Excuse my mentioning so small a point," he began, "for I can understand how little such things mean to you. Middle-class minds pay attention to them, but the others, the artists, the people who are really of our sort, don't give a rap for them. Now, from the first words we exchanged, I realised that you were one of us!" M. de Charlus, who gave a widely different meaning to this expression, drew himself erect.

Dave wrote: "Mme. Verdurin and her tight control over her clan seems to serve Proust quite well as a plot device. Their fear of incurring her wraith keeps them coming back and prevents them from "wandering around" to other social groups Proust would have to write about. Her insistence that they all arrive and depart at the same time creates "travel scenes" where characters converse and develop other story lines as the travel to and from the Verdurin's."

Dave, what a great observation! This makes total sense.

Renato wrote: "Jonathan, I was wondering the same: why do these people go to these parties? And especially when it comes to Saniette. M. Verdurin is so rude to him all the time but still he values so much being t..."

I know Renato, I feel sorry for Saniette, but then I think 'well, he doesn't have to go to these bloody parties and be abused' - I know I wouldn't. Even with the high-class ones like the Guermantes I still can't see what they really get out of it all. I guess it's just a luxury that the 'leisured classes' could indulge in. Like Charlus, they have little else to do but f**k and go to dinner parties. :-)

Jonathan wrote: "they have little else to do but f**k and go to dinner parties."

He, he, he, I love it when folks call 'em as they see 'em - refreshingly brisk observation Jonathan. I agree with your point about the abuse the Verdurin's guests unflinchingly endure. However, I'm at a loss as to what poor Saniette might do with his time though - I know I would not be brave enough to try to set him up with a girlfriend ;)

One other note Jonathan. You mentioned "leisured" classes Jonathan, keep in mind that one of the "layers" in the book is the transition of "power" in society from hereditary aristocracy to a capitalist upper-class. The Verdurins and the the Swann's may ape the aristocracy in manners, but they are not aristocrats. It is useful to track the social events across the volumes - who hosts them? who are the "routine" guests? who are the "exceptional" guests? Watch the trend.

Dave wrote: "One other note Jonathan. You mentioned "leisured" classes Jonathan, keep in mind that one of the "layers" in the book is the transition of "power" in society from hereditary aristocracy to a capita..."

Yes, it's all rather more nuanced than it appears at first. I tried to be deliberately vague with 'leisured classes' by grouping all those classes together where they show no sign of 'working' in any way. Even Swann, if my memory serves me correctly, was living off of an inheritance so I sort of lumped him in with them as well.

I do wonder just how much of the 'class' thing is lost on me. Being British I can pick up on quite subtle British class distinctions easily but wonder how much of the French situation I'm missing. There must also have been a distinction between the 'old' aristocracy and those that were 'honoured' under Napoleon.

I had a tough time at first to wrap my head around all of those classes and groups, and aristrocracy and all the titles etc. since we're not used to that here in Brazil.

Jonathan wrote: "There must also have been a distinction between the 'old' aristocracy and those that were 'honoured' under Napoleon".

Yes it was apparently quite complicate in France in the period Proust was writing. Somewhere there is a discussion (I believe involving Charlus) which lays out distinctions between those whose title were from the ancien regime (Louis XVIII and before), those from Napoleon I, thoses from Charles X, those from Napoleon III, and those who got thier titles from marrying foreign aristocrats. Naturally Charlus (speaking on behalf of all Guermantes) noted their nobility dated from the oldest titles in France (and elsewhere) and that all the others were poseurs.

But while all that seems complicated, Proust has simplified it for readers as the distinction between Swann's Way and the Guermantes Way. Each way a class distinction among other differences.

I believe you are right that Swann had inheirited wealth, although he trained to be an art appraiser. But how M. Verdurin obtains wealth is one of those little casual details that Proust throws out (in this case in the last volume I believe) which is quite significant to the social layer of the book.

As for the "working classes", Francoise, Jupien, Morel, Aime, maids, cooks chauffeurs, etc, Proust depicts them favorably in general. They do their jobs well, are loyal, etc. What is less clear is whether Proust was making a social commentary by making these characters so often be available to be screwed literally and figuratively by the upper classes.

Renato wrote: "all of those classes and groups, and aristrocracy and all the titles etc. since we're not used to that here in Brazil. " Have to go for your word on this Renato, but as a lifelong amateur historian, anthropologist and sociologist, I can think of no country, group or tribe that has not been organized with those at the top, in the middle, and most on the bottom. Revolutions, violent or not, make a show of change but only stir the pot. Of course people at the top don't have "titles" per se, but their are distinctions. In the U. S. your postal code, your tax bracket, the color of your credit card etc are the modern equivalent of titles. I'm not a frustrated old revolutionary, just an old detached observer of the local scene.

Dave, yes there are different classes in here as well, of course. Nowadays, it's mainly a financial distinction, like you mentioned it is in the U.S.. Back then it was mainly landowners vs. working class (also financial I guess...)

What I meant was that I didn't grow up thinking about princes and barons like our narrator, and those titles confused me for some time when I started reading ISOLT. Like Charlus who's baron and also a prince, and duc... and I used to wonder "how can someone be a prince and a baron and the same time?", haha.

Re-reading my post though I can see that it really seemed I was saying in Brazil there are no distinction between groups, sorry about that!

I didn't intend to come across as arguementative Renato, sorry. I knew what your post was getting at. I see titles in Proust as "historical detail" but the "king of the hill" mentality portrayed remains the same. At least that's the way I relate to this aspect of the book.

Dave, I didn't feel you were being argumentative at all, don't worry!

I guess with time I started having this mentality you mentioned of "king of the hill", but at first I was reading all about the titles and trying to understand how they ranked against the others and taking it too seriously, haha! Now all of that reads more naturally to me.

Renato wrote: "I was reading all about the titles and trying to understand how they ranked against the others and taking it too seriously"

That Proust, he's a sly one! I think that's exactly what he wants the reader to do, start out thinking the titles are important and two thousand pages later realize they are irrelevant!

I am definitely missing some of the subtle nuances here since I don't know the difference between a Baron or a Prince or a Duke or any other title. I'll probably save the research of that for my next Proustian journey. LOL!

Now I'm REALLY far behind ... still back here. Alas! :) I'll continue along, though. Still plan to finish this year!

Dwayne wrote: "Now I'm REALLY far behind ... still back here. Alas! :) I'll continue along, though. Still plan to finish this year!"

No problem Dwayne...just keep on going. :-) How are you finding S&G?

I'm still in love with the book and the process of reading it. I actually picked up the "Reader's Guide to Remembrance of Things Past" book by Terence Kilmartin. It lists and refreshes memory on characters and people who are mentioned. Can't *remember* if anyone has mentioned this reference work before. : )

The train ride to the Verdurins' reminds me of a Fellini-esque processional!

I was also struck last night with a bit about Charlus and the *other* de Charlus ... Comte Leblois de Charlus ... "In short, all the stories related of our M. de Charlus referred to the other." Again, this reminds me of Cocteau and the divergence between "reality" and what oneself and others believe about a person.

...aaaaaand I am *still* back here. I just finished this section yesterday. It's work, man, it has been taking up all my energy! Just wanted you all to know I'm looking forward to reading your comments in subsequent sections, even if it's at my own pace. Cheers!

Here's something I noticed -- the bit about Mme. Cottard falling asleep. Her name is Leontine. Narrator's aunt back in Combray was Aunt Leonie. Cottard says at one point, "People do not imagine that they never sleep." Ha! :) Again, the symphonic nature of this work. Like little flute riffs popping up, we're reminded of things that happened on the way to where we are with it, both in the plot and our own reactions to them as readers. In a shorter work it might be a bit heavy-handed, but in a work this big, moments like these are delightful and spot-on.

Dwayne wrote: "...aaaaaand I am *still* back here. I just finished this section yesterday. It's work, man, it has been taking up all my energy! Just wanted you all to know I'm looking forward to reading your comm..."

Dwayne, It is so fascinating to me the different perspectives in the group. The cinematic and musical references are interesting descriptions. Glad you are sticking with us Dwayne.

Dwayne wrote: "The train ride to the Verdurins' reminds me of a Fellini-esque processional!"

Somehow I've missed your previous post, Dwayne. It did seem like Fellini!

And I'm glad you're still reading Proust, even if you haven't been able to keep up with the schedule.

Renato wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "The train ride to the Verdurins' reminds me of a Fellini-esque processional!"

Somehow I've missed your previous post, Dwayne. It did seem like Fellini!

And I'm glad you're still re..."

The whole dinner party itself was very Fellini! The snark, the out-of-touch upper classes, the tete-a-tetes ...