Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Sodom and Gomorrah discussions through the end of the book.

Rather than try to figure what week my comments go, I've decided to write out my S & G comments in this "finish week." I may cut and paste specific commemts into appropriate weeks as the discussion moves along.
SPOILERS
-Overall S&G has been my favorite volume for these reasons:
-- I enjoyed the Princess de Guermantes party for the reasons I stated
-- I gained at least a small degree of "getting Proust" when I sensed a middle in his waiting in bed for Albertine to come kiss him goodnight.
-- My sense of a new day and new beginnings was carried out in numerous characters and themes, beginning with the evolution of Odette into a darling of society.
-- The section on grief of grandmother's death I found very psychologically real based on my own grief and my work as a trained volunteer grief counselor. I also found how the narrator "moved on" from his grief realistic.
-- The casual treatment of Swann's death seemed strange, but Swann seems to tun into something of a ghostly presence in the narrator's life, so I'll bide my time.
-- I liked the train journeys as a method the develop characters and advance the plot. At each stop characters got on and off and various digressions or conversations take place. Since the book 1001 Arabian Nights had been introduced at a key point, I found myself wondering if Proust was modeling all the stories in the train journey with that book in mind.
-- I loved the Verduran's Dinner Party, mainly for Charlus' role in it.

Questions or issues that bother me in this volume include:
-- I don't understand the narrator's interest in visiting the Verdurans - to use Mme. Verduran's word, I see them as bores, along with their little band.
-- Charlus was developed into a very complex and to me, sympathetic character in this volume. I found him interesting as more was revealed about his background and skills. I found him very sympathertic when it was disclosed that everyone "knew" about him and talked and laughed about him behind his back.
-- I found the ending of this volume contrived. I have less and less patience with the narrator and his (to me) unbelievable relationships with women. At this point I have more sympathy for Charlus than I do for the narrator. Is this what Proust wants the reader to feel? Or have I lost my way? On to "The Captive".

Dave wrote: "Rather than try to figure...
... trained volunteer grief counselor...."

Do you work with hospice?

When my mother died, I instinctively reached for Proust, as he was the only one who understood how I felt.
(I now volunteer for a NYC hospice organization.)

I am a trained Stephen Minister Marcelita. A trained layperson who serves as caregiver for persons in various life traumas. We work a lot with the grieving and sometimes with the terminally ill. I do this through my church, I am a Methodist.

Dave wrote: "I am a trained Stephen Minister Marcelita. A trained layperson who serves as caregiver for persons in various life traumas. We work a lot with the grieving and sometimes with the terminally ill. I ..."

Proust also was a comfort to those who were coping with loss. His condolence letters reveal his empathic nature.

Beautiful! How comforting to be able to keep such sentiments to re-read as a comfort as grief dims to loss. I really miss the time when people wrote letters to each other. I never knew anyone with a literary talent, but I have in my attic every personal letter anyone ever wrote to me since childhood.

Dave wrote: "Beautiful! How comforting to be able to keep such sentiments to re-read as a comfort as grief dims to loss. I really miss the time when people wrote letters to each other.
" ...I have in my attic every personal letter anyone ever wrote to me since childhood."

As I have also, excepting old 'friends,' whose words I only jettisoned recently, fearful that my relatives would read them once I had left. ;)

Like Proust, “'no trace remains . . .

because at a certain point he made me destroy them (the "black books"), and all thirty-two of them were burned to ashes in the big kitchen stove.'" Céleste via Carter's "Marcel Proust: A Life"
http://books.google.com/books?id=SDZj...

Concerning the addendum that Jonathan posted about the Queen, Charlus, the curling iron, and the bus conductor, my opinions about why Proust may have had a problem with placement of this story as an aside in the Princess de Guermantes include:
-it refers to "people beginning to get an inclination of his proclivities" This ruins the suspense developed in the volume about who knew about his proclivities. It was a major disclosure to me (on the train I believe) when it turned out that everyone knew about him.
- it reveals too much about Charlus' relationship with Jupien too soon. This relationship is developed over a long time in the novel.
- It reveals the whole "date with Charlus" scene which is only revealed much later in S & G and again removes an element of suspense which Proust seemed to be striving for..
- On the other hand the (as I read it) "attempted suicide" of the Princess de Guermantes should have been included as a specific event here or somewhere - this is new to me,

The scenes where Charlus and Jupien hides away in the brothel to try to catch Morel and where Morel is scared away from the Prince de Guermantes house when he sees a photograph of Charlus are amusing farce....but what!?...the Prince de Guermantes is also renting young men as well! I thought he was pretty straight-laced....

When Charlus gets going on his bloodline there's no stopping him, but he's quite often entertaining, like when he's educating Morel:

As for all the little people who call themselves Marquis de Cambremerde or de Gotoblazes, there is no difference between them and the humblest rookie in your regiment. Whether you go and do wee-wee at the Countess Cack's or cack at the Baroness Wee-wee's, it's exactly the same, you will have compromised your reputation and have used a shitty rag instead of toilet paper. Which is unsavoury.

BTW I think at times I agree with Mme Verdurin that Brichot can be a bit of a bore sometimes, but are we to assume that he is correct in his etymologies of place names? He is a professor I believe, even if Mme Verdurin calls him a schoolmaster. And why the hell does he put up with her interfering in his love life?

Proust is preparing us, I feel, for what is to come. He mentions that the narrator keeps 'Albertine a prisoner under my unnecessarily vigilant eye.' Within a page he talks about calling back Bloch's 'fugitive affection'. Is it any coincidence that he's using the titles (prisoner & fugitive) of the next two volumes?

My favourite quote of this section was:

M. de Charlus made no reply and looked as if he had not heard, which was one of his favourite forms of rudeness.

I like the idea of having a 'favourite' form of rudeness...out of many I feel.

Jonathan wrote: "The scenes where Charlus and Jupien hides away in the brothel to try to catch Morel and where Morel is scared away from the Prince de Guermantes house when he sees a photograph of Charlus are amusing farce....but what!?...the Prince de Guermantes is also renting young men as well! I thought he was pretty straight-laced...."

Jonathan, remember when Charlus had dinner with one of Madame de Chevregny's footmen at the Grand Hotel in Balbec? He asks this footman to introduce him to one of his fellow men:

“The Baron guessed this, and, widening his quest: "But I have not taken a vow that I will know only Mme. de Chevregny's men," he said. "Surely there are plenty of fellows in one house or another here or in Paris, since you are leaving soon, that you could introduce to me?" "Oh, no!" replied the footman, "I never go with anyone of my own class. I only speak to them on duty. But there is one very nice person I can make you know." "Who?" asked the Baron. "The Prince de Guermantes."”

I figured the Prince de Guermantes was gay (or bi) in this section.

Yes, I remember that bit Renato and I remember thinking, 'the Prince de Guermantes? Surely he's got the wrong person!'

Dave,

I'm finally able to read this thread and your full comments!

Dave wrote: "The casual treatment of Swann's death seemed strange, but Swann seems to tun into something of a ghostly presence in the narrator's life, so I'll bide my time."

That's a very good point and one we talked about some weeks ago: the relationship between the narrator and Albertine was mirroring a lot that of Swann & Odete. I think it makes a lot of sense what you said about Swann turning into a ghostly presence in his life - so him being dead or alive didn't make that much of a difference since Swann was so present still and influenced the narrator so much. What I wonder - and what you already know :) - is how far or for how long this influence will go on. I wonder if he'll be 'forgotten' as he is aproaching his own death.


Dave wrote: "I liked the train journeys as a method the develop characters and advance the plot. At each stop characters got on and off and various digressions or conversations take place. Since the book 1001 Arabian Nights had been introduced at a key point, I found myself wondering if Proust was modeling all the stories in the train journey with that book in mind."

Yes, this is so interesting! Such a good way to tie everything together and develop characters and plots. I don't have much info on 1001 Nights, but I plan to read it next year and I hope to find out how it influenced Proust on his writing.

Jonathan wrote: "BTW I think at times I agree with Mme Verdurin that Brichot can be a bit of a bore sometimes, but are we to assume that he is correct in his etymologies of place names? He is a professor I believe, even if Mme Verdurin calls him a schoolmaster. And why the hell does he put up with her interfering in his love life?"

I also wondered many times if what Brichot was talking about was actually right, but I never tried to find out. I assume that if he was wrong, our narrator would tell us something about it in parentheses - as he's done when other characters were wrong about painters, writers or musicians.

About Mme. Verdurin interfering with Brichot's love life - the bigger question is: why does everyone put up with her at all??? And also, as Dave asked, why does the narrator go there with them? What's so interesting about it? What is he gaining from those evenings?

At Grattevast, where his sister lived with whom he had been spending the afternoon, there would sometimes appear M. Pierre de Verjus, Comte de Crécy (who was called simply the Comte de Crécy), a gentleman without means but of the highest nobility, whom I had come to know through the Cambremers, although he was by no means intimate with them.

I wonder if he is, in any way, connected to Odette - or is it just a coincidence?

Renato wrote "how far or for how long this influence will go on. I wonder if he'll be 'forgotten' as he is aproaching his own death." Are you referring to the Narrator's death?

Yes. I wonder if towards the end of his life he'll be left aside and Albertine will be the one everyone finds amusing and intelligent, like it happened with Swann and Odette. I was just wondering though, I have no idea how far in time the narrator's life will be depicted in the remaning volumes.

I was also wondering if Swann debated so much before deciding to finally marry Odette as the narrator seems to be doing (I will, no I won't, yes I will, I have to... but will I really?). This was never disclosured as, if I remember correctly, by the end of Vol. 1 it was said that Swann was no longer in love with Odette, and completely over her but, in the beginning of Vol. 2, Odette was simply presented as being Mrs. Swann. I may have confused the timeline here though, but I think that's how it happened.

Jonathan wrote: "but are we to assume that he is correct in his etymologies of place names? " I've wondered the same thing. I came to the conclusion that even if they were correct, the place names themselves are fictional so t didn't matter. The concern for etymologies of places and genealogies of aristocrats makes the same point. Proust puts a lot of emphasis on how can we really know someone, someplace, something. I think he is pointing out that such curiosities are of no help in knowing substance.

That's a great observation! Just like those damn aristocracy titles I was so caught up on before... at least this time I didn't research about the places!

I did find a historical inaccuracy in Brichot's pomposity in the first Verdurin Wednesday in Swann's Way. He started lecturing on Blanche of Castile and made reference to her mother "sleeping with Henry Plantagenet for years before they were married." My sheer chance I know that bit of history and he is referring to Blanche's grandmother, Eleanor of Aquitaine. I don't know the accuracy of his gossip (Eleanor was Queen of France before the King annulled marriage). Brichot seemes to have a bad opinion of Blanche who became Queen of France but I didnt pursue that. Nobody in the group was interested and they cut him off.

Renato wrote: "I remember correctly, by the end of Vol. 1 it was said that Swann was no longer in love with Odette, and completely over her but, in the beginning of Vol. 2," You may have forgotten Renato that Swann was married to Odette at the beginning of Swann's Way. Swann's presence at dinner at Aunt Leonie is the reason mother cannot get away to kiss him goodnight. But the narrator's family is scandalized that Swann has married "that woman" Odettte, "the Lady in Pink" is also the reason the narrator's Uncle Adolphe breaks off conntact with the Narrator's family. The Section "Swann in Love" (which lasts two or more year) Swann's Way is a flashback that takes place five or more years before the Narrator is born. I assume the Narrator is 11 or 12 at the beginning and a gap of two or more years between Volumes I and II you have a gap of 20 years between end of Swann in Love and beginning of Volume II.

There is a complimentary time lapse at the end. How Swann comes to marry Odette I don't believe is ever disclosed.

But at the beginning of Swann's Way was Odette's name mentioned, or just "that woman"?

She is not referred to by name until Swann in Love section (before narrator is born) he meets her at his Uncle's house in Paris and she speaks to him by but his Uncle does not introduce him to her. His father is very upset at the Uncle for having exposed the narrator to her. At some point later (perhaps looking at her portrait) the Narrator realizes who she is and I believe that is the reader's first opportunity to know also. One of the complexities of the book is there are so many flashbacks and flashforwards the are very easily overlooked.

Oh I see, thanks, Dave!

I do remember that it was mentioned that the narrator's family was not as close as they were to Swann because of the woman he married. Then, in Swann In Love, after it was said Swann no longer loved Odette, I just assumed he ended up marrying some other woman, so I was surprised when I found out he ended up marrying her! I remember knowing Odette was the 'lady in pink', but for some reason I didn't connect her to Swann's wife...

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "but are we to assume that he is correct in his etymologies of place names? " I've wondered the same thing. I came to the conclusion that even if they were correct, the place names themselves are fictional so t didn't matter."

When Brichot first started spouting his etymologies I thought he was just a bit of a know-it-all who liked the sound of his own voice, but I think I was influenced by the Verdurins' contempt of him and his knowledge. (BTW I was only interested in whether his etymologies were correct 'within' the novel not whether they had any validity 'outside' of the novel) As the narrator took him seriously and I realised that he is actually a professor at the Sorbonne then my feelings changed a bit. His knowledge may be boring to many and he may seem pedantic but it is from real study and interest rather than the frivolous interests of many of the others; so I have a bit of a soft spot for him as I see elements of myself in him. He seems out of place though.

I'm getting used to Proust's attempts to direct us towards believing certain things about a character only to derail us later on.

Trying to remember more details from Swann In Love, I seem to remember that the narrator mentioned that he's heard Swann's story from someone else - but never mentioned who... will he?

Jonathan wrote: " getting used to Proust's attempts to direct us towards believing certain things about a character only to derail us later on"

Good observation. Referring to an earlier comment about why the clan comes to the Verdurin's that is a mystery to me. She talks smack about her group in front of them and behind their back. I assume the Narrator and Charlus put up with her to be with Albertine and Morel. Why the others stay is unknown.

But even the Narrator took her there by choice... he could've taken her elsewhere...

It's funny, after reading your note about when Odette was first mentioned I just started looking back at Swann's Way and I can see bits that seem more significant now that we're further along in the novel. I mentioned to Dave that I am thinking of re-reading 'Swann's Way' after the novel...not straight away though.

It's interesting just looking back at some of the scenes; take for example when the narrator sees Gilberte for the first time in their garden at Combray - the 'woman in white' is presumably Odette. The grandfather says 'Poor Swann, what a life they are leading him - sending him away so that she can be alone with her Charlus...' !!

Renato wrote: "But even the Narrator took her there by choice... he could've taken her elsewhere..."

Mind you, the narrator just took Albertine there to keep his beady little eye on her...as long as Mme Putbus's maid wasn't there. I guess it's an environment free of attractive young men and women.

Renato wrote: "Trying to remember more details from Swann In Love, I seem to remember that the narrator mentioned that he's heard Swann's story from someone else - but never mentioned who... will he?"

There is no transition and no explanation Renato. Swann in Love starts off with a paragraph explaining what it takes to be in Verdurin's group. This seems to be the case between most sections and between Volumes. The continuity between Volumes III and IV and between V and VI are exceptions.

!! indeed!

I forgot that Charlus and Swann were close friends! WAS SWANN ALSO BI? LOL kidding :)

Renato wrote: "!! indeed!

I forgot that Charlus and Swann were close friends! WAS SWANN ALSO BI? LOL kidding :)"

Anything's possible. :-) What I find really interesting with Proust is that we can't be sure that the grandfather isn't just getting it mixed up. Everyone thought that Charlus was a ladies' man after all.

I think Swann asked Charlus to spend some time with Odette... is that correct, Dave? I don't remember why though...

Jonathan wrote: "I guess it's an environment free of attractive young men and women. " Not without its dangers to young lover's though, Mme. Verdurin pushed Swann out the clan in SW to accommodate Odette and another gentleman.

Regarding your remark Renato, I assume Swann knew of Charlus' proclivities since he asked Charlus to keep an eye on Odette when he had to go somewhere and she was going to her dressmakers. He has complete faith in Charlus. Ironically the direction to the dressmakers sound like it was Jupien!

Later, when Swann gets the anonymous letter about Odette and "men and women" he suspects Mme Verdurin and Odette of being an item!

Dave: On a slightly different point - do we get to find out who the 'handsome young woman' on the beach is? She's attracted by Albertine. She's the one that the narrator notices has eyes that 'scattered rays so geometrically luminous that one was reminded, on meeting her gaze, of some constellation.' n.b. this was from a few weeks back.

Jonathan, you're only thinking of reading Swann's Way next year? Not the other volumes?


Dave wrote: "Regarding your remark Renato, I assume Swann knew of Charlus' proclivities since he asked Charlus to keep an eye on Odette when he had to go somewhere and she was going to her dressmakers. He has complete faith in Charlus. Ironically the direction to the dressmakers sound like it was Jupien!

Later, when Swann gets the anonymous letter about Odette and "men and women" he suspects Mme Verdurin and Odette of being an item! "

That's true, it makes total sense!! It must be amusing to re-read it and connect all these details! How fun!

Jonathan wrote: "Dave: On a slightly different point - do we get to find out who the 'handsome young woman' on the beach is that is attracted by Albertine? She's the one that the narrator notices has eyes that 'sca..."

I don't remember Jonathan. The Narrator suspects about every female character before its over. There are a number of implied relationships that are never resolved - some quite significant.

Renato wrote: "Jonathan, you're only thinking of reading Swann's Way next year? Not the other volumes?..."

Ha! Ha! I feel that 're-read creep' is starting to take over. A few weeks ago a re-read seemed a bit pointless, now I'm thinking of re-reading SW, who knows, by the end I'll probably be thinking of a total re-read.

Renato wrote: "That's true, it makes total sense!! It must be amusing to re-read it and connect all these details! How fun!" It is fun Renato - and I'm planning to hold Proust's feet to the fire when I come to one of those "we will get back to this later in the book" comments.

Dave wrote: "I don't remember Jonathan. The Narrator suspects about every female character before its over. There are a number of implied relationships that are never resolved - some quite significant. .."

That's interesting Dave because when I was reading that bit I felt that this character was going to have a huge part in the rest of the novel...oh well!

An interesting experience for me in rereading is that sections I dreaded were much shorter - I thought the snuffling around the hawthorns was going to last for twenty pages and it was much shorter than I remembered. Unfortunately, so are favorite parts.

Dave wrote: "An interesting experience for me in rereading is that sections I dreaded were much shorter - I thought the snuffling around the hawthorns was going to last for twenty pages and it was much shorter ..."

The only bit I really remember disliking in SW was when Swann was getting really obsessive over Odette - that seemed to go on for ages..yawn. I loved the hawthorns bit...oh beautiful hawthorns I'll never leave you...

Jonathan wrote: " I felt that this character was going to have a huge part in the rest of the novel...oh well!" Your right, Proust keeps you guessing right up to the end how characters will develop. Reminds me of High School Yearbooks in the U. S. where people are voted "Most likely to Succeed" "Most likely to get married" etc.

Jonathan wrote: "The only bit I really remember disliking in SW was when Swann was getting really obsessive over Odette - that seemed to go on for ages..yawn." Ugh Oh, you may become as frustrated as I was in the next two volumes. Keep the kettle on!

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "The only bit I really remember disliking in SW was when Swann was getting really obsessive over Odette - that seemed to go on for ages..yawn." Ugh Oh, you may become as frustrated ..."

I'm trying to prepare myself for the next two volumes. When I finished reading S&G I had a sneaky look in the section for 'The Prisoner/Captive' in the Patrick Alexander book and the opening sentence is this:

The next two volumes, The Captive and The Fugitive are the most difficult and least satisfactory of all seven volumes.

...gulp!