Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all Time Regained discussions through the end of the book.

As with the three previous volumes, I am placing my comments on this volume at the end out of courtesy to those still reading. My comments do contain Spoilers. When reading any of my comments keep in mind I read the public domane translations without footnotes or reference to scholarly books or material. My preference is to read and consider the published text, develop my own opinions, and then consider what reference sources have to say..

I was struck with the power, pathos, and poignance with which Proust wrote about WWI. And most of the meaningful sentiments were placed in the mouth of Charlus on his evening stroll with the narrator. Charlus the invert; Charlus the dirty old man; Charlus the artistocrat with suspiciously Germanic ancestors; Charlus the defeatist who could see men of goodwill on both sides of the conflict; Charlus the artistic lover of beauty who was grieved at the utter waste of sending so many beautiful young men to die at the front; Charlus the generous and compassionate soul who converted his home to a hospital for the wounded. I was reminded of Whitman's volunteering in a Civil War hospital and of the battle cry of the barricades during the Vietnam War - "Make Love, not War."

The Brothel - I was appalled that the marketing summary of the Audiobook (which I returned for translation reasons) for this volume begins "Stumbling through the darkened streets of Paris during WWI, the narrator enters what he believes is a hotel only to be confronted with the most shocking scene...." Pathetic, using sex to sell Proust? I see this whole episode as symbolic of the war - an anti-war black satire with Charlus. at the center. As in the beginning of S &G, the narrator observes surreptitiously, first through a keyhole then through a cracked door. The whipping scene to me is analogous to the "front" - the perversity of inflicting pain for pleasure. Who gets pleasure in war? In WWI everyone who went off to the front for a "two week war" to win "honor and glory" apparently. But once committed, you are tied up and cannot escape. Its the same in every war. The "post-coital" let-down after war is a bummer. The lucky folks get to smoke a cigarette. Dulce Et Decorum Est. I write this from my perspective as a career military officer. But there is an upside in war, captured by Proust in the Waiting Room of the Brothel. Men of all ranks and nations sit around and pass the time by talking among themselves. When Charlus comes down he visits with them without discrimination. This is an excellent portrayal of the camaraderie of war, which for many solders becomes the only thing worth fighting for amidst the carnage and insanity. Amidst the perversion and inversion that is war.

Borrowing a term from ballistics, I was interested to observe the trajectory of so many characters traced from horizon to horizon of the novel in this volume. I'll limit my comments to two; St Loup and Morel. St Loup the aristocrat and Morel the son/nephew of a tradesman. St Loup the professional soldier and Morel the professional artist, St Loup the homosexual who marries and fathers a daughter and Morel the heterosexual male prostitute. St Loup who uses connections and money to get what he wants and Morel who uses connections and money to get what he wants. St Loup who fights bravely, is awarded the Croix de Guerre and dies in battle, and Morel who is sent to the front after deserting, fights bravely, is awarded the Cross de Guerre, and lives to attend a party at the Prince de Guermantes' as an invited guest. Ain't life funny?

The Library - I found the climax of the novel absolutely astonishing! Astonishing in scope and in execution. I was overwhelmed when I realized Proust's purpose was to capture the moment of inspiration of an artist. I highlight when I read. I think I highlighted every sentence written in the library scene - what, 20-30 pages? I can be very emotional when I read and for this scene I was shaking like a leaf and often on the verge of tears. Of the I believe six, "involuntary memory" moments the narrator recalled that lit the fire in his mind, the intensity for me was that, as a reader, I could remember when each occurred in the novel. At some point the narrator lifts the reader's vision to look back to the beginning and using the analogy of a stream, highlights various moments in the story to show how it flows down to that moment -amazing. I also like the same treatment given to characters from Combray (although that may have been during the party).

The Party - I understood the purpose of the party to be a contrast to earlier parties and specifically to the Princesse De Guermantes' party at the beginning of S &G. I see the function of the party as a coda to the novel. In that regard it seems incomplete and flawed, again I assume due to Proust's death. The extended section dealing with "people look different when you haven't seen them in a long time" was tedious and belabored the obvious. Additionally the point had been made before - in Venice but before that too. I understand that there is a larger motif here that extends back across the novel about mistaken identity and how can we know another person. Still, it was too much. There were aspects I enjoyed. The disagreement about who had died was a hoot. That Madame Verdurain turned into the Princess de Guermantes (in title and behavior) and the Duchess de Guermantes turned into Madame Verdurain was amusing. I didn't see the point of the outtake about the dying la Berma and her wicked daughter. I read a summary of Racine's Phaedra, if this is a "life imitates art" message it was lost on me.

The Women - Other than Mother, Grandmother, (and perhaps Francoise) women are not to be trusted - that's the message I get from ISOLT. Going into the last party I counted Odette (after marriage to Swann) and Gilberte as "narrator approved." Odette tells the narrator she was unfaithful to Swann's devoted love. Scratch her. The Duchess de Guermantes calls Gilberte a pig and say she never loved St Loup (although she knew of his "proclivities"). Well maybe she was misinformed? Ah, but we are also told that Andree is Gilberte's "constant companion." The narrator offers two possibilities as to why Gilberte and Andree get on so well, neither of which involve him remembering what he thought so much about in the last two and a half volumes of the book. Scratch her.

The loose ends - I understand that, had he lived, Proust may well have continued to refine ISOLT his extended life. As it is, the novel is like a beautiful, unfinished tapestry which is being woven on a loom but which one side is an unwoven fringe. Some of the unfinished aspects that occur to me are:
Albertine is still unresolved for me. What am I missing? Dead? Alive? I thought maybe she would appear at the party dressed as a man. Nope. No info, nobody talks. I'm sure there is a symbolic significance to Albertine's story, but its still a story that i have to try and understand.
Narrator's parents - Still alive? Too painful to kill off? Now irrelevant to the story?
At the end of "The Fugitive" we are told Gilberte is the future Duchess de Guermantes. In this volume there is no allusion to this or indication of how it would come about.

Thanks for the read of a lifetime M. Proust, I loved it! And that is why it is worth remembering!

I have decided to reread the entire work (ISOLT). Why I made this decision and why I believe it is potentially incredibly enlightening to reread ISOLT are discussed in my Amazon review. The review contains no discussion of content but also covers all the decision that I made regarding translations, editions, reference material, techniques etc. There are no spoilers in the review. The link to the review is:
http://smile.amazon.com/Modern-Librar...

I've just glanced through these comments but I notice you're already planning a re-read Dave. When will that be? Surely not straight away?

Yes Jonathan, I've already started and am 10% through Swann's Way. I encourage you to look at the Amazon review (especially first part) to see how I came to the decision to reread and why I believe the rereading is most valuable if it is done immediately. Also, the posts exchange by me, Renato, and Marcelita on the S& G 7/19 week last night may be helpful.

Jonathan wrote: "I've just glanced through these comments but I notice you're already planning a re-read Dave. When will that be? Surely not straight away?"

On reflection Jonathan, perhaps it would be worth considering trying to form a "Rereading In Search of Lost Time" Group on Goodreads for next year. I'll post a comment on what such a group might discuss and hope to accomplish later in the "After Lost Time" folder (are they folders or threads?)

Dave wrote: "The Library - I found the climax of the novel absolutely astonishing! Astonishing in scope and in execution. I was overwhelmed when I realized Proust's purpose was to capture the moment of inspiratatio...

".. when I read and for this scene I was shaking like a leaf and often on the verge of tears. Of the I believe six, "involuntary memory" moments the narrator recalled that lit the fire in his mind,...."

Dave! I had the same emotional experience. For me, it was so electric....it was like I was immediately addicted to some rare "drug," after using it only once. And, like you I needed to immediately re-read the novel.

The experience we had confirms Antoine Compagnon's belief about "reading innocently." That is why I am rather biased in my views of little, if any, outside reading, until the novel is finished.

Here is the website of Antoine Compagnon's lectures on "Swann's Way."
It is titled, "Proust in 1913," and goes into great detail on the title and the first sentence. I love learning about "how" the novel was created. In French, but I listen to the English voice-over.

Aside: When Compagnon was at Columbia University last November, I told him how much I appreciated the English translation. He said he was glad to hear that, because it was very expensive to do! ;)

http://www.college-de-france.fr/site/...

Oh, I met a woman in one of the NY Proust groups, who is working on her Master's thesis:
The Twelve Involuntary Moments.

You mentioned six, but she had found twelve.
As you read, look for the other six.
I remember a few instances, when the narrator said "something" had triggered a memory, but they are not as dramatic as the madeleine, dipped in lime-blossom tea.

I will start a list....

Thanks Marcelita, I look forward to reading or viewing the linked material.

Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "The Library - I found the climax of the novel absolutely astonishing! Astonishing in scope and in execution. I was overwhelmed when I realized Proust's purpose was to capture the momen..."

Ooh, ooh! The Compagnon is really well done and a whole series. I'm going to love it!

Raw...just now.

All may not be true "involuntary" memories, but something which "triggered" a memory.

#SW-Overture: Tea and madeleine

WBG- Madame Swann at Home: Scent from WC in the park to Uncle Aldolph's study in Combray

?GW lilacs remembered from Swann's park

?WBG "Head of the ministry of posts" back to Gilbert's conversation
with father; Reminds him of Albertine

#Boots off grandmother WBG and S&G: Touching top button of boot-Delayed grief from GM's death

#Stiff/starched Balbec towel WBG and napkin in library (TR)

Three trees Hudimesnil and Steeples of Martinville, where he had looked at them before--trees in Villeparisis carriage to Martinville steeples; hills driving with Villeparisis

#Sound of spoon and metal hitting train wheels

#Feeling of the uneven paving stones, triggering Venice

#TR: Sight of the red covered Francois de Champi and the night of the goodnight kiss....which he never did receive, just his mother reading to him.

Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "The Library - I found the climax of the novel absolutely astonishing! Astonishing in scope and in execution. I was overwhelmed when I realized Proust's purpose was to capture the momen..."

Marcelita, is there any evidence that Proust planned to make it necessary to reread the book? I am astonished that I simply didn't even perceive what I call the "second" ISOLT was on the page during the first read.
- Like the Young Narrator I, the "young" reader tried, suffered, wasted time, but ultimately failed to understand on the first read.
- But now that I have suffered and failed, the "old" narrator reveals to the "old" reader, as I review my first read through rereading, the "masterpiece" that is the second "ISOLT" and all the insight it has for me in the way of self-knowledge.
- Manipulation of others is a motif from mama's first summons on.
- What you first perceive is not real is also a strong motif.
- Did Proust intend to manipulate readers in this way?

Marcelita wrote: "Raw...just now.

All may not be true "involuntary" memories, but something which "triggered" a memory.

#SW-Overture: Tea and madeleine

WBG- Madame Swann at Home: Scent from WC in the park to Uncl..."

Were all those recalled in the library? I remember a sunset seen through the window I think at Balbec in the Library scene.

Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Raw...just now.

All may not be true "involuntary" memories, but something which "triggered" a memory.

#SW-Overture: Tea and madeleine
WBG- Madame Swann at Home: Scent from WC

"Were all those recalled in the library?"

No, not all. That is why her thesis of the twelve moments intrigues me.

Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "The Library - I found the climax of the novel absolutely astonishing! Astonishing in scope and in execution. I was overwhelmed when I realized Proust's purpose was to...

"...there any evidence that Proust planned to make it necessary to reread the book?"

I have never read anything like that; however, I did read somewhere, that Proust buried surprises for the "close" readers.
(I will put it on my "to find" list.)

I needed to re-read the novel to appreciate, to understand the construction.
Like Elstir describing a dress made by the Callot sisters, one needs to turn the dress inside out--to see the brilliant hand-stitched design--in order to fully appreciate the artistry.

Here Proust explains how he wrote:

"... for this writer—who, moreover, must bring out the opposed facets of each his characters in order to show its volume—would have to prepare his book with meticulous care, perpetually regrouping his forces like a general conducting an offensive, and he would have also to endure his book like a form of fatigue, to accept it like a discipline, build it up like a church, ..."
[...]
"...create it like a new world without neglecting those mysteries whose explanation is to be found probably only in worlds other than our own and the presentiment of which is the thing that moves us most deeply in life and in art." MP (TR)

Then, the psychological hook:

"...I thought more modestly of my book and it would be inaccurate even to say that I thought of those who would read it as 'my' readers. For it seemed to me that they would not be 'my' readers but the readers of their own selves, my book being merely a sort of magnifying glass like those which the optician at Combray used to offer his customers—it would be my book, but with its help I would furnish them with the means of reading what lay inside themselves.

"So that I should not ask them to praise me or to censure me, but simply to tell me whether 'it really is like that,' I should ask them whether the words that they read within themselves are the same as those which I have written..."
MP (TR)

Yes, "it really is like that," but Proust also embellishes the novel with art and music, philosophy and history, science and literature, etc..

Knowing how precise Proust was....re-reading is necessary to see, to marvel at, all the layers.

A favorite passage:
"...and when Mme de Cambremer was heard to say: 'You must re-read what Schopenhauer says about music,' the Duchess drew our attention to this phrase by exclaiming: 'Re-read is pretty rich, I must say. Who does she think she's fooling?'" MP (TR)

But Proust was making a point.
So, next year it will be Schopenhauer and Beethoven's final quartets, while remembering that Proust invited Gaston Poulet's musicians to play Beethoven's Thirteenth Quartet in his bedroom in 1916.

(http://books.google.com/books?id=LD_p...)

Marcelita wrote: "...I thought more modestly of my book and it would be inaccurate even to say that I thought of those who would read it as 'my' readers. For it seemed to me that they would not be 'my' readers but the readers of their own selves, my book being merely a sort of magnifying glass like those which the optician at Combray used to offer his customers—it would be my book, but with its help I would furnish them with the means of reading what lay inside themselves. "

I had looked for this section to quote. I was telling Jonathan last night that I thought that a second read would be very personal for each reader because it would be more a quest of self discovery.

I love the Proust as a Musician. I put it on my Amazon wish list, Along with Beethoven's Thirteenth String Quartet. Also loved the paragraph on Proust's critical doctrine and that he may prove to be a precursor of New Criticism. I am self-educated in New Criticism and, as such, quite insistent on the primacy of the text.

In a sure sign I've fallen down the Proustian rabbit hole, I've order Lime Blossum Tea, and gotten a recipe for creamed eggs off Pinterest.

Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "...I thought more modestly of my book and it would be inaccurate even to say that I thought of those who would read it as 'my' readers. ..."

"In a sure sign I've fallen down the Proustian rabbit hole, I've order Lime Blossum Tea, and gotten a recipe for creamed eggs...

Dave,
Welcome to the warren! There are countless of us, underground, relishing all things Proust.
And when I get hungry, my favorite cooking website is "Earl's:"
http://insearchoftimetasted.blogspot....

"In Search of Time Tasted, thus, is a blog for cooking, tasting, and meditating—a blog that centers upon food and the one who cooks. Focusing on four episodes in Proust's In The Shadow of Young Girls in Flower (Dinner with Norpois, Tea with Gilberte, Dining Out with Saint-Loup and Picnic with Albertine), the blog attempts to explore and further expand questions such as these:..." Earl

lol, Marcelita, thank you! Fortunately we have a gourmet grocery store in San Antonio and I can buy even the most exotic ingredients.

For Sunny~
The narrator (older and younger) and John Malkovich's Baron de Charlus in the film Time Regained.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNogSYu1iGo

* closes eyes *

Pasting this here just so we remember to discuss it:

Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "I have to say I am beginning to be excited at the prospect of you folks finishing the book so we can can consider all aspects of the novel without consideration of spoilers. ...

"And I'm convinced such an experience depends on total surprise when Proust pulls the rabbit out of the hat after finishing. ..."

Dave, I have never heard anyone refer to the ending as you just did, but that is exactly how I felt. Surprised, shocked and amazed at his brilliance in weaving his "tapestry," with all those threads...through 3000 pages. And, not unlike Scheherazade.

I want to add something, but dare not. I just hope to remember...to return to this thought later. Mind trigger clue: darkness. "

Dave wrote: "Now that I think about it, the fire might have a symbolic meaning. We can discuss that at the end perhaps."

One little detail search I've taken to doing is looking up Paris street names on Google maps. If the general area or Arridesment (sp?) is mentioned, I traverse the globe to Paris and zoom in to look for the street and its general location. Some names change but many are the same. I was thrilled to find the street Odette lives on just South of the the Arch de Triumph. And when Marcel is meeting Gilberte in the Arch de Triumph Park, the narrator makes mention that she enters from a certain street. I looked it up and it ran right past the American Embassy now which fronts on the park they played in. In fact the paths through the Arch de Triumph are now named "Alley du Marcel Proust"!

Dave wrote: "One little detail search I've taken to doing is looking up Paris street names
"...thrilled to find the street Odette lives on just South of the the Arch de Triumph."


Laure Hayman criticized the author for having recognized herself in the character of Odette, perhaps because she also lived at 4, rue La Pérouse.

"But it was a world he clearly loved and connected closely with his creativity. His serious tenure there had begun when, at seventeen, Proust had befriended Laure Hayman, a courtesan who began inviting him to her salons as a kind of mascot, acting for him as a delegate to the upper crust of the demimonde. (They were connected through his great-uncle, who had Hayman for his mistress, and Proust’s father, who was her doctor and probably her lover. It was France, it was a different time.) Proust admired the older woman for her intellectual gifts, her deadly charm, and her artistic sense, which she displayed in a collection of fine porcelain. He later used her as a model for Odette." by Elyse Graham

From an invaluable site (SPOILERS!)
http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wi...

Just finished... that ending certainly felt like an autobiography. Mirrored a lot of what you all have posted about Marcel's life and the process of writing his book.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Just finished... that ending certainly felt like an autobiography. Mirrored a lot of what you all have posted about Marcel's life and the process of writing his book."

CONGRATULATIONS!

Marcelita wrote: "For Sunny~
The narrator (older and younger) and John Malkovich's Baron de Charlus in the film Time Regained.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNogSYu1iGo"

Wow. WOW! Thank you so much, Marcelita! This scene was exactly as I imagined it. I need to see if I can borrow this film and watch it.

Also, I never even knew JM could speak French!

Dave wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Just finished... that ending certainly felt like an autobiography. Mirrored a lot of what you all have posted about Marcel's life and the process of writing his book."
..."

Awwww. Thanks, Dave. I may not be a true Proustian (according to Marcelita's definition), but this does feel like a major accomplishment. I expect to join the even slimmer ranks of true Proustianity (?) when I re-read it.

I wonder if a person's maturity (read: age) plays a role in whether or not they enjoy or finish this entire work. Some of the 'a-ha' moments at the end (not perceiving yourself as old, noting how all things change over time, understanding that perceptions play a role in memory) are concepts that I don't think I would have appreciated 20 years ago. I may have understood the words intellectually, but I don't think they would have made as much of an impression on me back then.)

I've read comments before of readers who believed that being older helped them understand it while acknowledging they had tried and failed earlier. I place my self in this group.

Concerning my comments I posted above when I first finished the book my opinions have changed on a couple of comments.

- The Party, I now love this scene now. As with Proust's other social occasions it serves multiple purposes, has wonderful characterization and is brilliantly structured.

- The Loose ends. When I first finished in July, I had no knowledge on the sequence in which Proust wrote the book. My perception was distrorted. I have now formed another opinion about how the book "works" which accounts for loose ends. I've let Albertine go - she's dead Jim.

In both cases I leave my original comment to mark my change in perspective.

I'm super-curious about your suggestion to stew on this for a bit, then re-read the first 10 pages or so of Swann's Way. I'll definitely be trying to do that next week. :)

I'll be looking forward to your comments (I think Jonathan and Renato want those comments in the "Rereading ISOLT Folder" I'd check with them to be sure - they probably won't open this folder since they haven't finished).

I'll be in California next week. I'm hoping they have Internet out there so I can stay in touch with the group.

Congratulations on finishing ISOLT, Sunny. I'll be there in a few weeks time. :-)

Looking forward to it, Jonathan!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Dave wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Just finished... that ending certainly felt like an autobiography. Mirrored a lot of what you all have posted about Marcel's life and the process of writin..."

My dear Sunny, your accomplishment is truly rare. Congratulations!
Now, for the rest of your life, you will see through Marcel's lens.

I can never see a bee inside a flower, without thinking of Jupien falling in love with Charlus.

Thank you, Marcelita!

Your comment about the bee in a flower brought me an involuntary memory from the movie Superman.

"I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree."

Marcelita, I have a couple of questions.
1) Where do I find a detailed account of the post-death publication story?

2) Are there reviews or accounts by readers who were some of the first to read the whole book as a continuos read. The thought of having to wait a dozen years to finish gives me the creeps.

Dave wrote: "Marcelita, I have a couple of questions.
1) Where do I find a detailed account of the post-death publication story?

2) Are there reviews or accounts by readers who were some of the first to read t..."

1) As I say, "in the weeds."

This article is in French...and probably more than you needed to know. ;)
Here is a translated passage:

"In addition, two new problems arise: why Jacques Rivière and Robert Proust did they ever revealed the existence of this revised typing? Proust why he suddenly changed his text by removing two thirds of the volume Fugitive and removing the web with Time Regained? The two problems are in fact related, and we need to respond, try to reconstruct the "script" writing then the most likely issue: Jean Milly considering the various assumptions that have been made in turn, and confronts different scenarios and write constructed before proposing his own." Translated

http://www.fabula.org/cr/412.php
http://translate.google.com/translate...

Regarding 2)...more later.

Oooh, Fabula, there's a word I've come across in my Narratology reading. I'll have to translate this too. My wife has been studying French for six weeks but she still can't help me with my Proust!

Dave wrote: "Oooh, Fabula, there's a word I've come across in my Narratology reading. I'll have to translate this too. My wife has been studying French for six weeks but she still can't help me with my Proust!"

Fabula Google translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate...


As I don't speak French, my husband decided to take classes, out of the goodness of his heart. Now, when I travel he is my driver and arranges my hotel and restaurant reservations...and is, sometimes, successful in getting the waitress' to laugh at his jokes.

There is one edition of "Swann's Way" that has French on one page and English on the other:

French Classics in French and English: Swann's Way by Marcel Proust (Dual-Language Book)
Marcel Proust, Charles Kenneth Scott Moncrieff, Alexander Vassiliev
Alexander Vassiliev, May 1, 2012 - Fiction - 656 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=Xn77...

Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Oooh, Fabula, there's a word I've come across in my Narratology reading. I'll have to translate this too. My wife has been studying French for six weeks but she still can't help me wit..."

That Fabula Blog is very interesting. It would be nice to have an Audiobook of Swann's Way in French to follow in the dual language book you suggested. I get by with traveler French but I am always self conscious about pronunciation. We love watching French movies with English sub-titles so we can practice pronunciation.

I wonder why there is no mention of the Eiffel Tower in ISOLT? Did Proust consider it a monstrosity?

Dave wrote: "I wonder why there is no mention of the Eiffel Tower in ISOLT? Did Proust consider it a monstrosity?"

No, it's there, in Time Regained, in the war passage, "...searchlights of the Eiffel Tower, ..."