Return of the Rogue Readers discussion

The discussion begins!

I listened to the audiobook of The Jungle while driving to to vacation. It was one of those books I have heard about again and again over the years, but never got into for one reason or another. I knew the reputation it had as the inspiration for vegetarians and the effect it had on the meat industry. I had been told on multiple occasions that it would shock and disgust me, that eating meat would never be the same.

As the narrative rumbled up to speed my first thought was "This isn't so bad. It's just a wedding and it sounds quaint." The first sign of trouble was when the wedding crashers showed up and the idea of being ripped off by the barkeep was introduced. From there it went downhill.

What was the most disturbing part of the book for you guys? For me, it was the collapse of the family. When Kristoforas dies most of them were too beaten and broken to really care it really changed the tone of my experience with this book. The idea of the child crawling around on that shitty floor and then dying alone brought the novel from the level of vaguely unpleasant to genuinely disturbing.

Jordan this book was totally gross!! I couldn't even eat after read certain parts lol! I think the wedding stuff was sad knowing how it all turned out. It did feel like a fun little story st first but then got really depressing.

I hated the main character lol he was such an asshole to his family! I didn't like him from the moment they introduced him and he kept flexing his arms and making fun of people. He is a total jock! Lol I don't think he ever even played a sport or went to school since he couldn't even read but he was the first jock ever lol.

I thought the most disgusting part of the book was when the guy fell into the vat and died and they just cooked him up in the sausae. What was yours?

Amy, for me it was the way the family gradually lost hope and became so beaten down the the idea of the crippled child dying was seen by some as a relief. I mentioned that in my initial post. Yours was also very disturbing!

The way you describe Jurgis as a jock strikes me as hilarious. I had to go back and listen to the beginning again to catch that detail. When Jurgis got hired he was laughing at the men who had been waiting outside for months, calling them weak and drunken. He said "Do you want me to believe that with these arms"--and he would clench his fists and hold them up in the air, so that you might see the rolling muscles--that with these arms people will ever let me starve?"

I really liked this book. It was horrific and disturbing in a way that makes you think. If I were a high school English teacher, it would be on the top of the reading list for my students.

The most disturbing part for me was the complete disregard of life. It showed the ugliest of the ugly in human nature with the greed and corruption in business and politics. The steady destruction of Jurgis's family really brought to light the oppression of the poor, immigrant families in the book. They were tricked in to immigrating to Chicago with promises of higher wages and the potential of a happier life. Jurgis entered his first day so proud of himself and ready to work hard for his family only to get repeatedly knocked down and then kicked into utter submission. The family couldn't catch a break. I agree with you, Jordan, about the part when the son, Antanas, died alone in the street. That was a very bleak moment that left me with the 'Damn, this really isn't going to get better for them' thought. Even the brief moments of reprieve were short lived. What luck it was for Jurgis to run into the wealthy guy who mistakenly gave him a $100 bill! I thought, at least he'll be able to eat well for awhile. Nope, the greed and selfishness of the bartender took even that away. He didn't even get to drink the beer he bought to get the bill changed!

Amy, I didn't get the asshole vibe from Jurgis but I can see where some of his actions, or ways of handling things, weren't ideal. For example, he shouldn't have spent the families last $3 on booze after Ona died, however, I saw it as a guy who had been beaten down so much that losing his wife pushed him over the edge. Not exactly excusable, but I can't even begin to imagine what emotions and exhaustion he was dealing with. What else did he do to make you dislike him so much? The jock comparison threw me for a minute because I had completely missed the part of him flexing his arms and acting superior in the beginning. That is really funny though. I do remember him being so proud and ready to 'work harder' for his family and how he didn't understand why the others weren't just happy having any job. He learned quickly and was knocked off of his short lived pedestal where he looked down on the 'tramps'.

Ok, I will stop now. I could go on and on with this book. Haha

I'm still listening to this book, and I think that if it wasn't for this group, I would have put it down for good by now...

I identified strongly with Jurgis in the beginning, wanting a better life for his family, believing he could be the sole provider, that if he worked harder, he would earn more, that his effort and skill would be recognized and rewarded...

And I had to put the book down for a few days when Antonas drowned in the street, just a chapter after Ona died in an attic just a chapter after learning that she was being raped to keep her job, just a chapter after... I think I could follow that theme to the start of the book...

The industrial food processing didn't surprise me, that kinda stuff still happens, to a certain extent.

The treatment of the migrant workers didn't shock me too much, you can see its modern version in the strawberry fields around here in the winter, except now they can be threatened with deportation for speaking out...

I'm scared to listen to the end of this book. Jurgis just broke his arm, and is begging through January. I feel like he's going to end up frozen to death in the alley outside his family's tenement... Or committing suicide.
Ugh.

Danielle, I was actually talking about a different death. Kristoforas is the one who crawled around on the floor and died of food poisoning. I think this it says a lot about this book that there were so many tragic deaths to keep track of that you got mixed up as to which one I meant.

Mike, I can see why you would want to put the book down. It's one giant, endless bummer. It's not even that well written, in my opinion. However, I think that's beside the point. The point being Sinclair's plan to make a name for himself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends he loses, or people he leaves dead and bloodied along the way...

I will urge you to finish it. At the very least you can say you did. Also, because we will be able to discuss the ending.

Danielle Jargus also was the one who kept speeding up the work line and making it harder for everyone else. He just seemed totally wrapped up in his head, what he wanted was the only thing that mattered and everything else was not worth considering. Even at the end when the communists came around and started holding those meetings and stuff he just wanted a place to hang out and sleep but then when it served him he got interested in their thoughts. I don't know I guess he just reminds me of some people I have met and didnt like! Lol!

Jordan I am glad you found it funny but why do you disagree with me?

Mike did you get to finish the book or was it too depressing?

Amy, I think Jurgis was just trying to work harder (using his own words) to try and provide a better life for his family. The vibe that I got, was that he didn't realize that his 'harder work' would ultimately be done in vain. I don't feel like he was self-serving, just determined to do his best to keep his place as an employee. That seemed to be all anyone could do in that scenario. Workers were easily expendable, so if there was a 'weaker link', they could toss them on the street to starve and let another guy in. Jurgis was trying to keep his job so that he could provide something for his family.

You are right when you say that the mix up says a lot about the book, Jordan. So much tragedy to keep up with, it was hard to keep who died, and how, straight in my head. I see why you would want to put the book down, Mike. I'm curious as to whether or not you finished it. If so, what did you think of the ending?

Amy, I didn't meant sound as if I was disagreeing with you. We share the same opinion on Jurgis. I just thought the way you compared him to a jock was hilarious.

Last night I was rambling about the evils of capitalism and an interesting parallel came to mind. In "The Jungle" the characters come to America under the promise of wealth, safety, and respect. When they get here they discover that while the wages are higher, the cost of living is much, much higher. In America today there are foreign workers who come here for jobs under the H1b Visa program. American companies can hire foreign skilled labor if none can be found in America. The greedy corporations exploit this by dropping the salary so low that no American can afford to work there and then they claim its just doggon impossible to find workers here in America. So, they bring in Chinese and Indians who are wowed at the idea of making $10 an hour because they made the equivalent of $10 a day back home...if they were lucky.

This is bad because it devalues the jobs for American workers, but its also bad for the H1b Visa workers because they come here with expectations similar to Jurgis' and find that while the wage is higher, the cost of living far outweighs it.

In this scenario everyone loses, except the short-sighted corporate leaders who can only see in terms of red and black ink.

Danielle I think Jargis did that later in his career but at first he was arrogant and horrible. He was the whole reason thing sped up.

Here is the part of the book that made me think that

"This was called "speeding up the gang," and if any man could not keep up with the pace, there were hundreds outside begging to try.
Yet Jurgis did not mind it; he rather enjoyed it. It saved him the necessity of flinging his arms about and fidgeting as he did in most work. "

later on he seemed like he was just trying to tie ends to meet but at first he loved being the best and didn't care about making everyone else look stupid

Amy, you make an interesting point. Jurgis did start out very motivated and energetic and over time the system broke him down like all the rest. It makes me wonder where his strength and enthusiasm could have taken him if the system wasn't so brutal and crushing.

I finally finished it. Work and life and hurricanes interrupted.

Honestly, the last 25% of the book ruined the rest for me.

I was expecting / hoping for a true tragedy, with Jurgis dying to the machine the Bosses had trapped him in.

Instead it ends with this weird Communist manifesto propaganda speech thing, with a bright shining future of elected communists, elected by the subjugated masses...

The end felt a lot like John Galt's speech from Atlas Shrugged, but on the other side of the philosophical coin. I wonder if Rand stole the idea from Sinclair...

All around, 7/10, depressing deaths, significant social commentary, interesting look into early 20th century America, effective descriptions of terrible working and living conditions, a writing style I don't care for, all wrapped up with a feel-good ending.

I haven't read Atlas Shrugged, but it's on my list.

I agree with you about the ending. I don't think it fit and detracted from the overall impact. It felt like a kids movie where, against all odds (and through no real personal effort or growth) there is a happy ending and we can all go out for ice cream afterwards.

I didn't realize you had responded, Amy. My apologies for the delay. I suppose it is just a difference in opinion on Jurgis' intentions. In my opinion, he was just motivated to do his best. He was proud of his skills and speed and saw it as a way to move forward and do more for his family. His lack of compassion for his coworkers was misguided in that he saw it as them being less motivated to work hard, rather than the fact that they had simply been at it longer and had already been beat down. He would soon come to realize the truth of it all. I can see how it could be interpreted different ways, though.

I agree with you both, Mike and Jordan, about the ending. It was too feel-good and felt awkward and forced into an unrealistic happy ending. It didn't work and brought the book down a notch in my opinion.