21st Century Literature discussion

This is an offshoot of the discussion thread I created yesterday about the aims of the group. It was suggested that a discussion thread on how we obtain the books we read and what constraints this imposes could be an interesting.
[the other thread is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...]

To kick things off, I will start by saying that I buy most of my books as new paperbacks from physical shops. I have not investigated my local libraries recently, mostly because of the time constraints imposed by the office job and the fact that I like to spend my Saturdays out walking. I am also reluctant to contribute any more than I have to to Amazon's profits, and tend to use online ordering as a last resort because I often have problems being available to receive postal deliveries. I am also still holding out against using an e-reader, mostly because I don't want to be dependent on Amazon, and workable alternatives to the Kindle are increasingly hard to find.

So I have two issues with obtaining books for discussions here: (i) new books are expensive, particularly before the mass-market paperbacks have been released and (ii) older books, particularly American ones, but also anything that is a niche interest, can be hard to find in bookshops.

As with the other thread, I would be interested in any thoughts you have on this!

I am lucky enough to live within walking/cycling distance of two libraries, and am able to order books from other libraries within the county for 60p. They do have a very good selection, although more obscure books are sometimes not available, nor very new ones that are more niche. When I know which books are going to be discussed in the groups I participate in, my first check is always whether I can get it from my library.

Having said that, I do buy some paperback books new if I am really keen to read them (or when I am in an independent bookshop & find a gem!) and can't get them from the library. I also do buy some ebooks, though usually only if they are less than £5. Some new Kindle books are as much as £10 and that seems way too much. I rarely buy hardbacks.

I also "read" some of the books as audiobooks via a subscription to Audible and this allows me access to quite a few new releases, as the audiobook is often available before the paperback.

I'm able to obtain probably 35% of what I read from the library or used book shops, but most of my books are obtained new. Of those I buy new, approximately 20% are purchased locally (occasionally ordered in to the location) and the rest are purchased online. My online purchases are from sellers other than Amazon. Powells ships. So does my favorite Japanese bookstore in NYC.

I have a bias for hardbounds. I don't care for ereaders. I'm also doing a far better job than I used to do of making intentional rather than opportunistic or impulsive purchases. I prefer small presses. Finding Persian poetry, Eastern Europe authors in translation, Japanese thrillers or books 2-6 of any series with 10+ books in it at my library or in stock at local stores is out of the question.

When it comes to fiction, I use the library 99% of the time. With non-fiction, I probably buy them 30% of the time because I use them for reference. To go almost anywhere in my city I have to pass the library so getting there is easier than a book store. I also tend to reserve the books I want so I'm not making wasted trips to the library looking for books. I also live in an area where I can get a library card from many other counties. I have some eye problems so downloading audio books from around the State (for free) is a treat!

Most of my local bookstores have closed, although the thrift stores seem to have some remarkably recent selections (I guess people read new books and donate the ones they don't like). So I'll usually seek selections out in this order:
1) Library (I'm blessed to have access to two very good library systems; our neighborhood also has a series of Little Free Libraries)
2) Used (will check the nearby thrift store or online--abebooks.com, powell's, and yes, Amazon)
3) Borrow (on rare occasion, I've sent an e-mail to our neighborhood list-serv and found a neighbor willing to let me borrow a copy of a book)
4) New (most often ordered thru Amazon; or, if it's a small press or writer I want to support, I try to figure out the most beneficial way to order).

Hard copy is my preference, but I'll go e-book if it's all I can get or significantly cheaper.

For twenty-first century books, my first choice is the excellent regional library system of which I am privileged to be a part (and for which I pay a substantial separately identified tax within local property tax -- our governor tried to get some library benefits defunded a few years ago, which did not succeed, but one result seems to have been to bring the assessment to public attention). I can order from home to anywhere within the system and pick up locally. Although usually popular new books have a reasonable number available, the longer lead times established a while back on this board for new picks have been valuable.

My eyesight sometimes appreciates the ebook. Delivery is on demand and it is easy to clip quotations and to highlight and annotate the text. Price can be at the level of a paperback even for new books. I can share with immediate family on the same account. I also use Audible, but seldom standalone except for pure pleasure listening. If discussing, I prefer access to hard copy.

I seldom visit a bookstore anymore, although I am glad there are a few around and hope that they find ways to keep their business models viable.

The burgeoning online used book reselling is a boon for finding older and obscure books, but I don't know that I have ever used such for this board. I avoid used book stores -- too much temptation (and time) when my home already has too many books. But I will browse book sale shelves when in a library where patrons have donated their books and the library sells them for a small fee. Likewise, we do have about three large annual community rummage sales, one exclusively devoted to books. (Those sales contribute thousands to local service projects and libraries.) But, I have gotten to avoiding their temptations, too. Once a book has my name on it, I am loathe to part with it.

Still, I will pass up joining a discussion on a book with a lot of buzz for which I am unsure of my interest yet. Even though retired, time is still "money" to me and I presume for others. I avoid nominating a book for this board I have not read myself, regardless of its reviews. I have respect for the view of colleagues on classical read boards who say that two generations, maybe three (50-60 years) are needed determine what books will be classics. But, as an analyst, I lived on predicting the future, and I deeply enjoy being part of a group that is exercising such audacity re: books.

Library first. I'm super lucky to have a great one in Olympia, which is part of a regional system with 27 branches serving 4 counties. They have a lot that's downloadable, and ebooks are my preferred way of reading these days, I also download audiobooks which are great for long dog walks.

When I do buy a new book that's not an ebook, I usually go to my local independent bookstore. Almost never plonk down the money for a new hardback. Used trade paperback is my first choice when I can find them.

I do a mix of ebooks and paperbacks. My local library offers ebooks so I'll try to get them there first if they're available. I read a lot on public transit or on the go so I find the Kindle the easiest thing to carry around (plus, I can use the same hand to hold the book and flip pages - essential for bus/train journeys when I have to hold onto a pole!). For paperbacks, I'll almost always go to one of my local independent shops and will only resort to purchasing them online if I can't find it in person. I rarely purchase a hardcover unless it's by an author I really love and I want to have a physical copy right away.

Mostly library and mostly ebooks here. I can't afford to buy all the books I would like to read, so when I can, I get them from our local public library system. They have lots of ebooks and audiobooks available. When they only have hard copy, I can have them delivered to my local branch for pick up for free (and they have good hours).
If my local public library doesn't have a book, I really want it, and I'm feeling particularly poor, I'm in luck in that I am a librarian myself and work for an academic (university) library system. Via our library and interlibrary loan, I can have virtually any book I want to read delivered right to my office door for free.
However, I often will buy the ebook or audio book if I can't get it in one of those formats from the library. My eyesight is very poor, and reading physical books gets harder and harder for me, bringing on headaches and blurred vision for hours. Ebooks and audio books don't do that to me.
I personally love Amazon and have no problem throwing money at them except when I have no money to throw, so having and loving a Kindle and being enslaved to Amazon and Audible does not pose an ethical dilemma for me ;)

I don't have great library access so I like to buy paperback copies. Once and a while I'll spring for a hardback if it is a title I want to keep in my personal library.

It seems we are quite a diverse bunch - I'm actually surprised and pleased by how many of you have good libraries. I am also a little surprised by how few of you seem to be keen e-readers, but maybe some followers of literary fiction are natural technophobes.

Really effin' sick of the "ereaders aren't real books" type comments. The text is the same. It has a built in dictionary. I can carry 500 books in my hand where you can carry one. I also have crap eyesight, and being able to enlarge the text at the end of the day is a lifesaver.

For some reason people seem to confuse personal preference with objective superiority. You can check my bookshelf to decide if my tastes are 'literary' enough for you.

Whitney wrote: "Really effin' sick of the "ereaders aren't real books" type comments. The text is the same. It has a built in dictionary. I can carry 500 books in my hand where you can carry one. For some reason p..."
My comment wasn't intended to convey any form of criticism, so I am very sorry if you read it that way - I hope adding the word some to the offending sentence will help - I work in I.T. and I have no excuse for not having tried to use an e-reader - if I ever manage to get my to-read pile down to fewer than 10 books I might invest in one!

I do about 90% of my reading on my Kindle. I understand the people who don't want to put money in Amazon's pockets, but I do love my Kindle. On the e-reader debate, it was Douglas Adams who said "Lovers of print are simply confusing the plate for the food.", a quote with which I heartily agree! Some books are just not available on the Kindle, though, so I have no hesitation in turning to something made from dead trees when it is something I want to read.

I think the original purpose of this thread was about the ease or otherwise of obtaining books for group reads. I think the Kindle is, normally, quite good for this as the Kindle version of a book is normally available at the same time as the hardback but at what I would consider to be the paperback price. Also, most newer books are readily available, although I have discovered this year that several Richard Powers books (I am reading through them all) are only available in paper form.

Finally, the Kindle "real page numbers" functionality is really useful for group reads and it is frustrating how many books are released without this feature. I've been reading this year's Man Booker Long List and several of the books have not had real page numbers included. It probably isn't the case here, but on other threads I see a lot of confusion about Kindle page numbers where people suggest the number of pages depends on the font size you pick. This is NOT the case with "real page numbers" where the text is set up on the Kindle so that the software always knows which actual page in a physical edition it belongs to. This is perfect for people who want to take part in discussions.

Just to add on to the ereader thoughts: not using an ereader doesn't indicate a Luddite nature. I read on my laptop, iPad mini and smartphone for 14 or so hours per day, at minimum, for work. Not only my eyes but my brain need to get away from the blue screen for the part of the day that is about me, so I choose paper for my personal entertainment reading. Anecdotally, I find that - for readers between 15-45 with no visual impairment or their practical concerns - the divide between ereader and non ereader use often turns not on whether a user is a technophobe, but more often on the nature of one's day job and how much of that day job requires constant laptop or tech use. YMMV.

Carol wrote: "Just to add on to the ereader thoughts: not using an ereader doesn't indicate a Luddite nature. I read on my laptop, iPad mini and smartphone for 14 or so hours per day, at minimum, for work. Not o..."

Carol, I think I know what you mean. My job has me in front of a PC for many hours a day. However, I find the adaptive lighting on the Kindle screen makes it really comfortable to read even after a day in front of the computer. In the end, it's about personal choice. My wife hates the thought of an e-reader and has been known to buy her own paper copy of a book that I own on the Kindle. Mostly now, I check with her before I buy a Kindle book and if she says she will probably want to to read it, I buy the paper copy to save us a bit of cash! We do read quite different books normally, though.

Neil wrote: "Carol wrote: "Just to add on to the ereader thoughts: not using an ereader doesn't indicate a Luddite nature. I read on my laptop, iPad mini and smartphone for 14 or so hours per day, at minimum, f..."

Agreed - those personal choices are driven by a multitude of factors. whatever gets more individuals to read more pleases me greatly.

Carol, the e-ink ereaders aren't blue screen. They don't have pixels and are effectively the same as looking at a page of print.

Hugh, not buying it. If I said I was "surprised and pleased" by how many people disliked the Scots, would you honestly not find it disingenuous of me to then say I didn't mean to convey any form of criticism?

Whitney,

I really am extremely sorry - I accept that it was phrased very thoughtlessly - I meant the "surprised and pleased" to be purely about the usage of libraries (and there was an element of self-criticism implied there too). I have edited the comment again in the hope of making it clearer what I meant to say. I can honestly say I had no intention of saying anything pejorative.

Carol wrote: "whatever gets more individuals to read more pleases me greatly."
Hear, Hear!!

Fair enough, I can see that. You just hit one of my sensitive hot buttons.

What Carol said!

Hugh wrote: "I can honestly say I had no intention of saying anything pejorative. ..."

Sometimes one just manages to cross swords in these discussions -- intentional or not! The joys and frustrations of freedom of speech....

Whitney wrote: "Carol, the e-ink ereaders aren't blue screen. They don't have pixels and are effectively the same as looking at a page of print.

Hugh, not buying it. If I said I was "surprised and pleased" by ho..."
I'm aware of this Whitney and shouldn't have short-handed my technical terms in an inaccurate manner. Thanks! ( my eyes still need a break from "screens" but there's a lot of other things going on with my vision, focus, distractability, etc.)

Today I learned I am a technophobe for refusing to spend $100 to access the library's poor selection (to my taste--no romances for me tyvm) of ebooks. I cut books out of my budget over 15 years ago.

Now, wait. Even thin-skinned me didn't read that as calling all non e-book readers technophobes, just some speculation that maybe most readers weren't fans of the tech.

I think you may be a bit of an outlier in that you have ZERO budget for books. Does your library at least have a good selection of non electronic books?

Your library charges extra to access ebooks, Dree? That sucks.

Fascinating to see what freaks we all are about where, when, and how we acquire our books. I suppose it's better to say we're "passionate" or "devoted".

When I read literature, I make all sorts of marks on paper, underlines, stars, comments, and I even sin by folding pages. Therefore, e-readers are a saving grace for me! I can go to my Kindle highlights page to see all the highlights and notes of any of those ebooks at any time, and none of my markings were sins in the eyes of book lovers.

Carl wrote: "When I read literature, I make all sorts of marks on paper, underlines, stars, comments, and I even sin by folding pages. Therefore, e-readers are a saving grace for me! I can go to my Kindle highl..."

My name is Carol and I dog-ear books. *ducks and runs*

No my library does not charge extra to access ebooks--but the selection is very mediocre (to me) and the cataloging is horrible.

Kindles, on the other hand, are not free. Kindle books being "cheaper" is not true when you don't buy books. I spend less than $30 a year on books for myself--all used. This year is much lower, because I missed the annual rotary book sale and the June library sale.

As a former bookseller, I USED to buy wayyyyyyy too many books - which added up, even with my 30% employee discount. Now, I use the library and interlibrary loan almost exclusively. The only time I actually BUY a book is if it isn't available - like some plays or the UK Booker nominees, which I will get from Book Depository at a discount. Although I have a Kindle, just can NOT get used to using it :-(

Dree wrote: "Kindles, on the other hand, are not free. Kindle books being "cheap..."

Ah, I understand now. It still may not be an option (or not a desirable one), but you don't need a Kindle to read Kindle books. If you have a laptop, computer, or smartphone, you can download the free Kindle app and read books on those. I do understand not everyone likes to read on a screen (or is in front of one frequently).

Since this group reads more recent works, the library is probably the only bet for free Kindle versions, but there are also a ton of free Kindle and e-books available online for those interested in older literature (Project Gutenberg and Open Culture are two of my favorites). (I have even downloaded HTML versions of smaller books and then printed them on paper to read on rare occasion.)

The Kindle app does not appeal to me for precisely the reasons Marc states - for me reading time should be time off reading from brightly lit backdrops, but I am aware that the Kindle display screens are now much better than smartphone screens - it is the link with Amazon which is the biggest factor in stopping me buying one - the technology itself seems quite attractive.

Thanks to all of you for your fascinating insights.

Thanks for starting some very engaging discussion threads, Hugh!

Such an honest group, too--not a single person has mentioned theft as an acquisition method :D

Wait. Is it theft if I inadvertently fail to return a book to a friend? For years? Im good as long as I apologize every time I see him. Aren't I?

Carol wrote: "Wait. Is it theft if I inadvertently fail to return a book to a friend? For years? Im good as long as I apologize every time I see him. Aren't I?"
Oh in that case I'm guilty too, but mostly just books from my parents' collection so I'm not sure if that counts...

I think that's called "extended borrowing" and does not qualify as outright theft. It almost brings a tear to my eye when someone returns a book they've borrowed because it seems to happen so seldom.

I am a heavy library user but will buy if the book is a classic or something that I think might be (a la the aims of this group!). Luckily I don't have the family theft problem as my dad's voracious reading is limited to spy and crime thrillers that I don't prefer ;)

I have never listened to an audio book or used an ereader. I have a mental block on those for some reason! I think I just love my books as is :)

I've given out books and borrowed them with the understanding that it would be a long-term loan, nothing wrong with extended borrowing!

Carol wrote: "Wait. Is it theft if I inadvertently fail to return a book to a friend? For years? Im good as long as I apologize every time I see him. Aren't I?"

I'm generally happy to give away any book I'm finished with. But if someone promises to return a book and then doesn't I find I'm quite unforgiving. A guy at work borrowed a book from me (it was on metallurgy of all things). Twenty years later he turns up on my doorstep in a Salvation Army uniform asking for a donation. Of course, I gave him a donation, those folk do great work, but everytime I see a Salvation Army uniform now it passes through my mind - "Those guys steal books!". :)

Twenty years and you still remember, Jim! I'm like that--I remember with whom every unreturned book disappeared going back to highschool... I can probably tell you almost exactly where any book is in our house if you asked me about a single one. The brain works in funny ways...

Carol wrote: "Wait. Is it theft if I inadvertently fail to return a book to a friend? For years? Im good as long as I apologize every time I see him. Aren't I?"

"Only your friends steal your books."

-- Voltaire

Years ago I loaned a book to a friend. A couple of weeks later she sent me a check for the price of the book, with a note that she liked it so much she had no intention of returning it.

Casceil wrote: "Years ago I loaned a book to a friend. A couple of weeks later she sent me a check for the price of the book, with a note that she liked it so much she had no intention of returning it."

That's a first--I've never heard of that happening! I did have a friend buy me a new copy of a book once because she lost the copy I lent her. It really wasn't that big a deal, but she insisted.

Great quote, Peter!

I've come to regard my friends' houses as additional shelf space...I use a Kindle nowadays but my wife is an avid paper book reader.

Marc wrote: "That's a first--I've never heard of that happening! I did have a friend buy me a new copy of a book once because she lost the copy I lent her. It really wasn't that big a deal, but she insisted.

Great quote, Peter!"

I first encountered that line in Roger Zelazny's Nine Princes in Amber. The main character comes back to a house of his that has stood empty for years, and finds it has been broken into and robbed multiple times but his books are all still there.

Zelazny often had some great lines of his own:

"Doubt is the chastity of the mind."

"I trusted him like a brother -- which is to say, not at all."

I usually only lend someone a book if I don't mind the possibility of it not coming back - unless it was some sort of textbook - those things are expensive.

I've always loved being in houses surrounded by bookshelves (my parents have tons of books) and thought I'd want to have shelves upon shelves in my home. However, I've moved a lot of times in the past few years and I've learned that moving boxes of books gets to be pretty annoying (especially if one of those moves is from the UK to the US). So, I've come to really appreciate ebooks and only keep books I've recently acquired or my absolute favorites that I may return to one day.

My house is not all that big. The first words used by visitors are often something like "Haven't you got a lot of books?". And I have to explain that what they can't see is the 500 books on my Kindle, so they can see my wife's reading (apart from the spare room and attic that are filled with books) and my reading up to about 4 years ago. Well, I don't HAVE to explain that, obviously, but I often do because I like to talk about my books!

Neil wrote: "I've come to regard my friends' houses as additional shelf space...."

LOL! Love it!

Marc wrote: "...I did have a friend buy me a new copy of a book once because she lost the copy I lent her...."

I loaned a hard copy of a book some years ago and it passed through several hands before it came back to me -- as a paperback. That one irritated me because I've always bought so few hardback books and in the past cherished those I did. I never learned in whose hands it changed modalities or the associated story. I had no problem with multiple readers, in fact, that was rather nice. Now, I hang looser on loans. I definitely hesitate to borrow other than a library book -- I may not read a book for months, even years, after it is in my hands.

Okay, so in truth I don't borrow books from friends, and I would only give books away, not loan them. I know every book I own, including the parts of our library that are stored in boxes. I would not want to receive a check or another copy of a book given to me as if it was acceptable. I was raised by an antiquarian book collector, and I care deeply about the cover, edition and acquisition story behind each one. I come by my neurosis honestly.

If I loan a book, I loan it the same way I loan money; only what I don't mind loosing too much, and only what won't stress a friendship if I never see it again.

I'm going to beat the possible dead e-book horse a bit more (don't get me wrong, I too have a house with way too many books and bookshelves). Screens on the e-ink readers are not just better versions of computer screens, they are fundamentally different. Just like an actual book, they are literally just dark pigment on a lighter background. The image is still there if the power is off, you can read them in bright sunlight, you can't see them in the dark (unless you have an optional backlight), you can make a photocopy from them. I also hate reading books on screens, that's why I got a reader that uses e-ink, they are virtually identical to a printed page.

And you can get ereaders such as the Kobo that aren't Amazon, and ebooks can be bought from independent booksellers (see http://www.indiebound.org/ebooks).

I'm not trying to convert anyone to e-readers, anyway someone reads (or listens) to a book is a good way. Just trying to clear up some apparent misconceptions.