J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This folder is for our discussion of chapter 13, Of The Return of The Noldor through chapter 18, Of The Ruin of The Beleriand and The Fall of Fingolfin.

Thanks for setting this up Rachmi!

I was able to read Chapter 13 to 14 this weekend. I enjoyed the first half of Ch. 13 the most. The 2nd half of Ch. 13 and all of Ch. 14 are pretty dry, geography and who rules that geography. Not much story.

I thought it interesting —fitting?—that Feanor w/his fiery temper was killed by a Balrog, a fire creature:)

I enjoyed Fingon's story and his rescue of Maedhros.

The rest of this chapter covers a lot of ground time wise, hundreds of years, and a telling of how the Noldor and Sindar "became welded into one people."

Overall, I found the end of Ch.13 and most of Ch. 14 tedious. I was glad to get through them:)

Onward!

Ch. 13 : I enjoyed so much reading this chapter and I begin to love some characters especially from the Noldor princes ;) . Some major events happened and a few of them will have an important part on the next following story *upsspoiler?
1. Feanor: to soon/to young to die, that was what I felt for him. Did you guys feel sorry for him? Idk if sorry is the right word for him. You just cannot feel sorry for Feanor (no swearing :)). Talking about the death, I just realized that the 1st elves to die were both Feanor's parents and not so long after that was Feanor. He was only 328 years—Valian years when he died; it's equivalent to 3,142 years old and he was slain only two years after he swore the oath.
2. Caranthir: the quick anger. Idk why I love this character. Rather than Celegorm whose both characters are similar with their father, I prefer like Caranthir. There's one picture by Catherine Karina Chmiel which describing this "Yea more!" scene. I smiled when I saw this picture; the expression was literally so close to each character, Caranthir, Maedhros and Maglor. I'll act like Maglor if I have brother like Caranthir.
3. Thingol: First, I felt in love with this character but as the story goes, I have no feeling for him. Just plain :)) I think he can switch the role as Feanor's dad with Finwe...
4. Turgon: Gondolin! My favorite King of Noldor and Kingdom in Beleriand!! That's it... Just wanna praise them, that's all. No more words, because too much to say about them will be like spoiler :))
Ch. 14: Geography! This is why I quit reading The Silmarillion in English version many years ago. So glad that finally it's translated into my native language :))

OK Heidi, as you said... onward! ^_^

Hi Wita, It's good to hear from you!

So, I didn't feel sorry for Feanor:)

Thanks for sharing some of your favorite characters.

So you've read Children of Hurin, yes? and really like it? Is it different in style from The Silmarillion?

Yeah, ugh on the ch. 14 geography. I understand it adds to the world building, but I hope we get more story in the next chapters. I can't imagine how hard it would be to read ch. 14 in a second language!

Hi Heidi! Long time no see... :)

Idk, but just because I've read The Silmarillion,IMO Feanor's death scene wasn't so spectacular or impressed compared to many other important characters's death in the story, considering that he's the main trouble maker. Or maybe it was just the way it is, no 'wow' effect for the death of the Valinor's rebellion leader as we feel for him at the beginning of the story. And soon, his death story will be forgotten...

Yep, I've read CoH and I like it.. a lot! :))
It's different one in style from The Silmarillion. It's like the other ordinary books story.

Btw, the last two characters that I've mentioned intentionally above are going to give you their stories, just right after the last chapter that you've read ;) *spoiler alert?.
And you'll find that the Silmarillion will be just like the other ordinary books story in style on the next following chapters. I hope you'll enjoy reading it, Heidi! ^_^

So sorry for posting so late for chapter 13 & 14. Just like you guys, I enjoyed chapter 13 but not so much about chapter 14.

I kept thinking that I need a map while I read chapter 14 to make it more interesting. And maybe I draw some lines and write some notes based on the description. So that when I forget who rule where, I can go back to the map and read my notes. But I'm too lazy to do it, Lol.

One interesting thing, though. I wonder whether there is any explanation regarding why Morgoth's servants shunned the water. So they avoid it, save in dire need.

As for chapter 13, I didn't make any connection between Fëanor who has fiery temper with the way he died because of a Balrog which is a fire creature. But yes I agree with you. It seems fitting. Now I'm sure it isn't just a coincidental thing :) The way he died kind of surprised me, though. I know lots of spoilers for this book, but strangely I didn't know how Fëanor died. So when I read it, I'm kind of shocked, lol. I didn't thought that he will die so soon. In this case, I agree with you Wita. I think he is too young to die. I love his character, as much as I dislike his personalities. But he is one interesting character to me.

I didn't feel sorry for him, though. I don't know, maybe because I'm just too shocked because he died to feel sorry for him, Lol. But I will surely miss him, if it makes any sense :)

I also love that I got to see more Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin's decendants here, though I find it's so hard to memorize their names. I get to mix them up and have to go back to previous paragraphs to make sure I read it right, hahaha.

Wita, I'm curious how you can memorize them all, what with your explanation here. Did you have to read chapter 13 again before you discuss it with us? Or you just remember it the whole time. Because seriously when I write this, I have to go back and reread some paragraphs again :p

Anyway, about Caranthir. He is Fëanor's son without a doubt, hehehe. Can you show us the drawing by Catherine Karina Chmiel? I never heard of her before and am curious to see her drawing now.

We got to see a glimpse of Turgon here, are you saying that he has important roles in next chapters, Wita? I cannot wait to read it. I'm interested with he and Maedhro now. And Fingon too. I think he's so kind and brave helping Maedhros while they have not-so-good relationship. Well...I know it's actually because Fëanor but still.

And I'm quite agree with Fingolfin, if it's not because of their treason among themselves, Morgoth cannot escape from the Eldar.

Yup. Patience, all will be revealed about Turgon in due course. It takes a bit.

Hi Kak Rach! Glad to know that you're here too. I thought you'll skip this part of discussion just like I did on several previous chapters hehe.. *peace

So yeah, once I decided to join this group which is a buddy reading group, I follow the 'role'; reading only two chapters of The Silmarillion in every month ... if I can :)) Surely, doing re-reading helps a lot to refresh memories for the complexity of The Silmarillion story so I can join the discussion session by sharing my thoughts about it.

Btw, are there any member on this group who has finished reading The Silmarillion?
Raise your hand, please!^_^
Because I'd like to ask a question. Once you finished reading it and found out that there's a story behind the story in The Silmarillion—kinda extended story in other Tolkien books, are you interested to continue reading these books or you just stop reading on The Silmarillion? And please share us the reason why... If you do continue reading, which books that you've already read?

About the Caranthir's picture and as well as many other pictures that I'd like to share, if only I could post them via mobile device. I hope Goodreads will make a progress about this stuff.

I'll try to take part the discussion as much as I can :) It's just I read chapter 13 and 14 a while ago and posted my thought. But then I didn't get any notification about your and Heidi's comments, while I usually get one. Goodreads is weird like that. So I didn't check our group. And then because it's been more than one month I finally check it out and realized that there wasn't any comments from me! I'm not sure what happened.

I thoughts you don't reread it with us and just memorize all about it because you've already read it a while ago. Happy to know that you're reading it with us now. I seriously couldn't memorize all those names and kind of mix-up who is who and what role one has. Some times I feel like Dory in Finding Nemo/Dory, having a short term memory, Lol.

But to answer your question, I'm sure Mary has finished reading Silmarillion or maybe she has reread it a couple time, I think?

I think posting pictures via your mobile phone is doable, but it's quite hard. Or maybe you do it with your mobile but not from Goodreads apps but from browser. Do you know what I mean? I some times do this, juggling between the apps and browser when I have a discussion with my other friends from other group.

I have read the Silmarillion once before, years ago. So I don't quite remember everything. Every time I re-read a book, I notice different things that I didn't pick up on the time before.
On the names - I can sometimes remember the names and the persons actions, I just have trouble remembering how they are all related to each other. I find it helpful to do a google image search of "Silmarillion family trees". There are many reliable diagrams online in various places. I think some print copies of the Silmarillion have such diagrams in the back in the appendices.

I am still on chapter 13 at the moment still catching up from my late start.

Children of Hurin - I started reading it, but never finished. I would like to finish it. I enjoyed what I read of it. I just did not find it as interesting as other books.

Wita wrote: "IMO Feanor's death scene wasn't so spectacular or impressed compared to many other important characters's death in the story, considering that he's the main trouble maker. ..."

This is a great point. Absolutely, agree.

Thanks, for the preview on what's coming. Very good news:D

Rach, I also agree Feanor's character is a very good one, the complexity is there. So yeah, it did make his death rather anticlimactic.

So my book had a map in it. And I was like, hmmm... I could just look at the map and not read all this, lol.

Oh, and I just discovered: my book has a glossary of characters. Helps a lot with all the names ... that, ahem, I always forget/mix-up!

Ugh, on the limitation of posting those pics on a mobile device:(

Hi, Mary! Nice to see you're keeping up with us:)

Wita, are you asking if we're going to keep reading as a group? That is definitely the plan. And see, gradually our little group is growing. By the time we reach The Hobbit, maybe it will be bigger:D I notice there are some other large Tolkien groups. Would it be a good idea to post an invite to our epic read-along in them?

Sydney, great to hear from you too! I think re-reading anything always helps with comprehension. Honestly, sometimes I'm reading Silmarillion right now going ... who? what? lol.

On chapter 13? You're almost there!

Yes, we're doing Children of Hurin next, and as you can see our group is nothing if not persistent. We're going to get through it all:D

'Allo kak Rach,
OK, well noted and thank you. Will try it later as soon as I can. I haven't posted any pictures on Illustration thread for so long. So yeah, I'll make an effort of it.

Hi Sydney,
I think we all have the same experience to memorize, especially those family trees in Silmarillion. My first exercise was on Finwe's line. If it's some kind of exams, I would be failed over and over again! :)) And then his kin met others family trees, the other elf kin and man kin and so on and so on... Arghh!!

I finished reading The Silmarillion early this year. But I have to re-read it just to refresh the details, especially when I decided to join this group.

CoH — It's interesting to find that we have a different feeling for this book. Fyi, in my country this book was released just not long after the Silmarillion. So, I was in a good mood to continue reading this book. And I found that it was interesting as Silmarillion. I couldn't even stop to read it until the last chapter. And still I want more chapters of it though it's over :)). In case you didn't know, CoH will be our next reading right after the Silmarillion.

I wish there will be 'stand-alone' books for other 2 top stories in Silmarillion; Lay of Leithian and the fall of Gondolin as well.
What do you think Mary? Is it possible?

Hi Heidi,
You'll find that every important character in this story has their own 'iconic' death scene. You just didn't find it on Feanor.

Yes! It's a great idea and worth a try. I agree... :)

Hi guys!

I thought I'm the only one who just read chapter 15 & 16? apparently we haven't discussed it yet :)

So here's my thoughts.

Mary was right, Turgon has his own story here in chapter 15. I loved how slowly but surely he moved to Gondolin. And I also loved that there's a map of The Realms of The Noldor and The Sindar here. For me it's easier than when I have to open up my Beleriand map :)

But the most interesting thing for me in chapter 15 is how Sindarin becomes one of the main languages in Middle-earth universe. Well at least that's what I thought, as I never heard Noldor language. I only know there are Sindarin and Quenya. So I kind of think that those two are the main ones that created by Tolkien. And as usual, how Tolkien made throughout Beleriand they refused the tongue of the Noldor, and shunned those that spoke it aloud; but the Exiles took the Sindarin tongue in all their daily uses, and the High Speech of the West was spoken only by the lords of the Noldor among themselves. Yet that speech lived ever as a language of lore, wherever any of that people dwelt. makes sense and believable.

Chapter 16. I know that Tolkien story had great influenced by Scandinavia/Nordic mythology but this chapter, about how Aredhel Ar-Feiniel married Eol kind of reminds me of Persepone and Hades :D

Anyway, do you think that Eol trap/trick (?) Aredhel to be married with him? I think in a way he tricked her into his house, what with he sets his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out though It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling.

Note: This may sounds silly and has nothing to do with Silmarillion but it's kind of make me thinking :)

The title of each chapter begins with "Of" while in Indonesian edition it's translated into (similar with) "About". I wonder is there any significant differences between "of" and "about" in English? I've tried to seek the answer in Google but so far I haven't find any satisfying one :) At least the one that makes sense why Tolkien chose Of instead of About, for example.

Hi. I just got done reading Chapter 16. I do think that Eol did trick/enchant her into being with him and to get her into his home. But, I think Aredhel probably had many opportunities to leave him before she did if she was extremely unhappy. She may have been afraid of going home to her brother or her kin and admitting how she was tricked so easily.
On the difference between "of" and "about"...that's a tricky one. For the most part, the two are somewhat interchangeable. I did some quick research and I though about how I would use each of the two words. There is a subtle difference. "Of" is the word Tolkien used. "Of" implies that this is just an overview almost; that it is most of the story, and that more things may have happened that there just is not enough details known about or time enough to explain. "About" can be a bit more specific and focused and less generalized. "About" would imply more so that this is everything that occurred in the order in which it occurred. I believe Tolkien used "of" instead of "about" because the lives of the elves and the stories about thier lives are so long, spanning thousands of years. The word choice, because it is more vague, almost gives you a sense that there is an entire history that we know nothing about. For example, with Aredhel and Eol. In one paragraph, Eol tricks her, and just a few paragraphs later thier son is full grown. There is, maybe, 20-40 years where we don't know what happened to them. We don't get 100% of the story, just like the word "of" suggests.

Agree with you Sydney, Aredhel might have opportunity to leave Eol and go back to Gondolin. I'm not sure that she knows that she was tricked, though. She seemed happy with Eol before Maeglin was born. I mean she only wanted to go back to Gondolin when she told Maeglin about it and realized that she missed her brother and her kin.

And thank you so much very much for your explanation, Sydney! I'm sure you don't know how helpful you are :) You're kind of open my eyes. And it makes more sense to me now.

I don't know about you, but when I read Tolkien books, be it The Hobbit, LOTR and especially Silmarillion there's a sense that the narrator doesn't know about the whole story. Hence I, as a reader, only get a bit about it. There's some kind of hole (?) in the story because the narrator tells me only the thing that they know. So it makes the story feel more like a history, a folk lore to me instead of a work of fiction. And with the "of" and "about" definition you just told me, it adds the feeling.

I'm glad I decided to ask this silly question :D So again, thank you!

I've read these chapters! I'm going to be back in a bit to add to the discussion!

Wow! I thought I had already commented on chapters 15 & 16 (red face!) but now I see I did not.

Okay, here goes:)

Chapter 15:

1. I enjoyed the creation of Gondolin and wondered if the sword mentioned would become the one that was broken, maybe not? But in searching Wikipedia:) I did find that the dagger Sting and swords Glamdring (also Orcrist?) found in the troll cave in The Hobbit were forged in Gondolin. Kind of cool;)

2. I also found Finrod's defiance toward Thingol interesting, which led to Thingol's command that the Noldor language not be spoken in his realm which led to:

3. The evolution of the languages, i.e. that Sindarin became more popular than the language of the Noldor, was quite interesting. So I agree with Rachmi on that.

4. The last detail I noted as interesting King Finrod of Felagund's that he would not marry or produce an heir because the one who he had loved had not joined him in exile. Kind of swoony:)

Now, Chapter 16!

SO this was one of my favorite chapters so far. I just love the themes of dark and light;) and I love how Tolkien played with them in this romance!

I thought the whole, Eol the Dark Elf was pretty cool. That "He shunned the Noldor, holding them to blame for the return of Morgoth" was not exactly dark in spirit ... and also that he befriended the dwarves and learned from them, open-minded in a way ... I loved that his eyes could "see deep into shadows and dark places"

I agree with both Rachmi and Sydney, Eol did cast enchantments to bring Aredhel to him, but I like to think if she'd really wanted to leave she would have ... and would not have married him. It's so intriguing though that they walked through the forest by the light of the stars and the "sickle moon" so there is a sweet melancholy, ambivalence, to the relationship. I'd like to think she loved Eol, as in opposites attract, but that eventually she just longed for home ... because she did leave Gondolin originally because she felt caged within its walls, or at least "weary of its walls."

I thought the story of their "Child of the Twilight", Lomien whose father called him Maeglin, Sharp Glance, because "the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own " was kind of fabulous and then when Aredhel takes him to the white city, he became so dark over his unrequited love for Idril ...

Thus it was in Gondolin; and all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted, a dark evil seed was sown.

Such a great interplay, kind of gives me chills.

I did a quick search on OF vs. ABOUT, couldn't find a lot that fit this particular usage. Sydney gave a great delineation, it's a bit like unraveling thread, to add emphasis to what she said ... OF would be limited knowledge and ABOUT a more detailed presentation, which is basically what she said:)

So ... it's interesting that the Indonesian translation uses "About", maybe it is because of nuances in the Indonesian language that differ slightly from English?

Chapter 17.

I kind of liked this chapter because: Here come the Men:) So here we see the Felagund who never married in ch. 15 befriending Men, and teaching them the ways of the Eldar and becoming beloved by them.

Now, Tolkien mentions several times the dark shadow that is in Men, the shadow inculcated by Morgoth, but he never says exactly how that transfer happened ... or did I miss something?

Misunderstanding/misinforamtion between kin and races is a plot device Tolkien uses fairly frequently, which works because that happens a lot in real life. Misunderstanding/misinformation is a huge source of conflict so it's interesting how he repeatedly plays with it. Here Amlach blames the Elves for deceiving Men about the Dark Lord, etc. i.e. they're just using that story to cover their own greed.

Then he backtracks ...

So I thought I recognized the name Haleth, here a female name but in Two Towers the name of the young boy who fights in Helm's Deep. Was he just in the movie? Or also in the book?

Also Boromir... who is not the Boromir of the Lord of the Rings ... so it seems Tolkien liked these names, because he drew them into his main body of work.

Okay. We also hear of Hurin, one of the sons of Galdor, here ... Wita, wherever you are, is this the Father of the Children of Hurin?

I liked the kind of personality delineation of the Three Houses of Men, also a bit about their physical differences, so I'm thinking that the Numenor will come from the House of Beor?

And I like at the end of chapter how Beor's death is covered, with the distinction from the mortality of the elves.

And finally, the difference in Men who had "looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor". Again, these are Beor's lineage? and the ones from which the Kings if Numenor will come? I think yes.

I'm going to read chapter 18 tonight or tomorrow.

I apologize again for being late to the discussion. However, I will be able to be more present for this group in just a couple of weeks. The group has grown a bit and we're going to begin sending a monthly message to remind folks of what we're reading, i.e. for December—THIS MONTH!—we're only reading chapter 19, because it is so long (thanks Wita for pointing that out. )

Chapter 18. I finished this last night and needed some time to absorb it and collect my thoughts.

1. Boy, it was depressing! When Tolkien titled it Of the Ruin of Beleriand, "Ruin" was no understatement. Most of the chapter was a big win for Morgoth.

2. The noting that Morgoth not only wanted to destroy the Noldor but the land they "made fair" speaks to the force of destructive envy. I guess if you can't create you can always destroy! Also, a common quality of evil action is impatience, which Morgoth had ... thankfully!

3. The dark minions: dragons, balrogs, and orcs ... this will sustain through Tolkien's work.

4. I thought Fingolfin's final stand against Morgoth was quite dramatic and moving, and as Feanor's half-brother, seems he got some of the Finwe's "warrior" temperament ... at least he crippled Morgoth.

5. It was satisfying to see Sauron, like AHA, here he is, the Big Bad! The "greatest and most terrible of Morgoth's servants."

6. Morgoth's machinations against the Noldor were quite dark, enslaving them and/or setting them "free" as double agents, so that any who actually did escape weren't trusted and had to live in exile.

7. So, there are the Three Houses of Men and then the Swarthy Men. When I read the prior chapter of Men, somehow I had the idea that there only the Three Houses ... it was interesting that the Swarthy Men ultimately betrayed Morgoth by aligning with Maedhros, Maglor, and Caranithir. This helped that the Noldor's defeat was not total?

8. Wita, anyone else? is the Hurin in this chapter the Hurin of The Children of Hurin? I did like how he and Huor were saved and taken by the King of Eagles to Gondolin and spent time there.

9. I had to look up the word "leaguer" since I really didn't know what it meant: siege!

10. Hurin's defeat of the Orcs was at least a more hopeful ending:)

Overall, I find I remember some of the characters better. Repetition. In the beginning of the book all the names, races, etc. were 100% confusing, now they are only about 50% confusing:)

Group Business: Will be sending out the first group message soon, with the group's reading schedule for the remainder of The Silmarillion.

Heidi wrote: "Chapter 17.

I kind of liked this chapter because: Here come the Men:) So here we see the Felagund who never married in ch. 15 befriending Men, and teaching them the ways of the Eldar and becoming ..."

This chapter was pretty confusing for me, what with those names of the three Houses. My goodness...I can barely follow it! :D And have to stop reading for a minute to picture all of those name in my mind and draw my own family tree. This was before I realized that there are indeed family tree of the three houses at the back of my book! Lol

But it's also interesting as we finally meet some of famous names! Hurin and also Turin (Turambar).

I don't think you missed something, as I didn't get anything about it either.

I recognized Haleth too and instantly thought about the boy from The Two Tower film. So I checked his name in the book. Apparently there's a boy named Haleth in LoTR, so he wasn't made by Peter Jackson. But he only appears in the appendix. I guess PJ created him from there, not from the main story of LoTR.

Yes, Hurin here is definitely the one and only Hurin from The Children of Hurin, the father of Turin Turambar.

Agree with you, the difference between the three Houses of the Men are interesting. They are pretty different we can easily differentiate them. I do think the Numenor comes from the House of Beor.

And now about Barahir. I know a bit about Beren, but never think that he is the son of Barahir. Silly me, I know :D And was wondering if he is the Barahir that has a ring that later is given to Aragorn, ring of Barahir.

Btw, to answer your question So ... it's interesting that the Indonesian translation uses "About", maybe it is because of nuances in the Indonesian language that differ slightly from English? I think so too. The nuances (and tone?) about "About" is pretty different from English. I'm quite curious about this, to be honest. And have checked the synonym of "About" in Indonesian and find one word, but I haven't checked its real meaning. So I still don't know whether that synonym is close to "Of" meaning or not. I guess I still have to check it later :)

I think "of" vs "about" is just that the first sounds a little more old-fashioned, and this is, after all, based on the style of Dark Age sagas.

Tolkien no doubt considered both newfangled.

Heidi wrote: "Chapter 18. I finished this last night and needed some time to absorb it and collect my thoughts.

1. Boy, it was depressing! When Tolkien titled it Of the Ruin of Beleriand, "Ruin" was no underst..."

Yay, Morgoth! Lol. He is one truly evil, doesn't he? He's so envy he cannot see straight, I think. And Sauron as the greatest and and most terrible of Morgoth's servants, I guess he learns from the best, hahaha. I just cannot imagine, though. Sauron is really bad and strong in LoTR, which is mean Morgoth is much stronger and more evil than him. No wonder he is the ultimate evil in the middle-earth universe.

3. The dark minions: dragons, balrogs, and orcs ... this will sustain through Tolkien's work. About the dragons, I remember that I once saw the different size of some dragons in Tolkien story, two of them are Glaurung and Smaug. The difference is amazing. I think I'll post the picture later in illustration thread :)

4. I thought Fingolfin's final stand against Morgoth was quite dramatic and moving, and as Feanor's half-brother, seems he got some of the Finwe's "warrior" temperament ... at least he crippled Morgoth.

I don't know why but Fingolfin crippled Morgoth made me think of the prologue in LoTR: FoTR the movie where Isildur cut Sauron's finger to take the One Ring. I don't remember if it's from the book or PJ created it. I should check it our later then.

I never read The Silmarillion in English version anymore, it's just too much for me (for now, I hope). So at first I didn't know what do you mean by Swarthy Men as in Indonesian edition, it's translated into Manusia-Manusia Berkulit Gelap (The Dark-Skinned Men). This makes me think that in a way I think I'm kinda lose much, not reading TS in English. Hopefully, once I reread TS next year (as I'm thinking to reread the whole book right after we finish our buddy reading), I can also read it in English :)

Anyway, some of this Swarthy Men is Easterling, right? please correct me if I misunderstood it. I think Easterling comes from The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast, and Ulwarth, and Uldor the accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him, and proved faithless.

8. Wita, anyone else? is the Hurin in this chapter the Hurin of The Children of Hurin? I did like how he and Huor were saved and taken by the King of Eagles to Gondolin and spent time there. I'm pretty sure now, that this Hurin is the Hurin of The Children of Hurin.

9. I had to look up the word "leaguer" since I really didn't know what it meant: siege! If you didn't know what leaguer is, then I bet I won't know it either Lol. I still don't know which part you're talking about though. I'll check about it later in my English edition.

It's still 100% confusing for me! For some reason, I keep forgetting the names! And have to go back several times to previous chapters to get it right. That's why I need to reread the book in one reading, without any interruption from other books. I think that way, I won't forget it easily. Hopefully, hahaha.

Oh speaking of Gondolin, I think there's a book (a story?) which is called The Fall of Gondolin. I don't find it here in Goodreads though, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the title before.

Could it be in one of Tolkien books, such as in one of History of Middle Earth books or Unfinished Tales?

Forgot to point out another things :)

I love this one.

Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains;

I think it's smart for Fingolfin to challenge Morgoth that way. Morgoth certainly cannot ignore Fingolfin, not in front of his captains. And it's interesting that he's the only Valar that knew fear. It makes him more similar to human (men), I think?

Mary wrote: "

Tolkien no doubt considered both newfangled."

hehe ... no doubt;)

Rachmi wrote: "I recognized Haleth too and instantly thought about the boy from The Two Tower film. So I checked his name in the book. Apparently there's a boy named Haleth in LoTR, so he wasn't made by Peter Jackson. But he only appears in the appendix. I guess PJ created him from there, not from the main story of LoTR...."

So I think it's going to be interesting by the time we get through all these books, to see how Jackson and Fran Walsh edited, manipulated Tolkien's work to theatrical effect. Like when I was reading about ... I can't remember which scene, but it was in The Silmarillion and it made me think of the elves scenes in the second Hobbit, like some of the images I got reading The Silmarillion matched images in the movie. I wonder if I'll be able to try the The Hobbit movies again, after reading all this stuff?

Hmm ... no, I don't think so ... :)

Rachmi wrote: "I don't know why but Fingolfin crippled Morgoth made me think of the prologue in LoTR: FoTR the movie where Isildur cut Sauron's finger to take the One Ring. I don't remember if it's from the book or PJ created it. I should check it our later then.
..."

This relates to the point in my previous comment, it looks like Jackson and Walsh (and whoever else worked on the screenplays ) pulled ideas, images, and scenes from outside LoTR (and the Hobbit!) for inspiration.


Yes, Morgoth is one BIG BAD DUDE!!!!

"Anyway, some of this Swarthy Men is Easterling, right? please correct me if I misunderstood it. I think Easterling comes from The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast, and Ulwarth, and Uldor the accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him, and proved faithless."

Okay, I missed all this:) But very interesting connection. I guess when I read about the Swarthy Men, it also made me think of the men in the Two Towers movie who followed Sauron against the Rohan:)

Don't they (Gandalf? Aragorn?) talk about the Fall of Gondolin in The Return of the King movie? Are I'm I just imagining things?

Rachmi wrote: "
I love this one.


Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to com..."

Yes, that is just an example of Tolkien's great epic storytelling in plot and style ... imho:)

Heidi wrote: "Okay, I missed all this:) But very interesting connection. I guess when I read about the Swarthy Men, it also made me think of the men in the Two Towers movie who followed Sauron against the Rohan:)

Don't they (Gandalf? Aragorn?) talk about the Fall of Gondolin in The Return of the King movie? Are I'm I just imagining things? "

Yes, I think they are Easterling, the one that came from the ship. It's in Two Tower, right? or is it Return of the King? gah...I forgot! It's been two years since I watch LoTR :D

The Fall of Gondolin is apparently one the last chapter in The Silmarillion! I was really curious and kept asking where I heard about it and then I look at the table of contents of The Silmarillion and found that it is indeed the title of chapter 23. Silly me I didn't realize it in the first place Lol.

I didn't recall that Gandalf and Aragorn talked about it in RoTK, though. Which part do you think it is? I'm going to check it. I guess you're right, PJ, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens were definitely manipulated Tolkien works for theatrical effect. I thought everything they add were only from TH & LoTR appendix but then when I read TS, there are things that are quite remind me of the movies too.

I might watch TH again, some day. But not now, hahaha.

The men that come on the ship are the Return of the King, pretty sure; the ones fighting the Riders of Rohan are in Two Towers. I had the idea they were different? Well, now when we read the books, and next time we watch the movies, we'll have to pay attention!

Oh, awesome. The Fall of Gondolin is in The Silmarillion, hehe. I read through all the chapter titles last month and already forgot! But yep, it's there;)

I was thinking maybe Aragorn talked about the fall of Gondolin—or some piece of history—the same night Pippin burns his hands with the palantir Sauron's ball thingy, and Gandalf refers to it—or some piece of history—at Minas Tirith with Pippin and they're kind of waiting for the next attack and Denethor is losing it ... but I could just be making things up:)

Again, I'm inspired to read carefully when we get there, and also pay close attention next time I watch the movies. It's amazing how every time I watch the movies there is something I forgot.

Heidi wrote:
"8. Wita, anyone else? is the Hurin in this chapter the Hurin of The Children of Hurin? I did like how he and Huor were saved and taken by the King of Eagles to Gondolin and spent time there."

Yess!! The one and only Hurin. He's one of the main characters in Children of Hurin. And so sorry for it took me a year to answer your question .. with my new account :))

I don't know about the movie, but in The Hobbit, the swords that Thorin and Gandalf get from the troll lair are from Gondolin.

Mary wrote: "I don't know about the movie, but in The Hobbit, the swords that Thorin and Gandalf get from the troll lair are from Gondolin."

Do you mean the Orcrist, Mary? Yes, it's true. It's from Gondolin. If I'm not mistaken, Gandalf has mentioned it in TH movies, I forgot which scene it was.. but I'm not so sure about that. Maybe I just mixed it up :))

Rachmi wrote:
"The Fall of Gondolin is apparently one the last chapter in The Silmarillion! I was really curious and kept asking where I heard about it and then I look at the table of contents of The Silmarillion and found that it is indeed the title of chapter 23. ...

I hope The Fall of Gondolin will be published as a standalone book too just like the former chapters in Quenta Silmarillion, Children of Hurin and soon, The Tale of Beren and Luthien. As I quote from Preface in Children of Hurin book,

"Here he called the tale of Beren and Luthien 'the chief of the stories of The Silmarillion', and of it he said: 'the story is (I think a beautiful and powerful) heroic-fairy-romance, receivable in itself with only a very general vague knowledge of the background. But it is also a fundamental link in the cycle, deprived of its full significance out of its place therein.' 'There are other stories almost equally full in treatment,' he went on, 'and equally independent, and yet linked to the general history': these are The Children of Hurin and The Fall of Gondolin.

It thus seems unquestionable, from my father's own words, that if he could achieve final and finished narratives on the scale he desired, he saw the three 'Great Tales' of the Elder Days (Beren and Luthien, the Children of Hurin, and the Fall of Gondolin) as works sufficiently complete in themselves as not to demand knowledge of the great body of legend known as The Silmarillion. ..."

The Fall of Gondolin is my second favorite chapter. So, it will be great if I can read the WHOLE story about it, sort of The Silmarillion.extended stories.

Thanks, Wita and Mary for answering questions:)

So... I'm really looking forward to reading Ch. 21 this month, sounds like it's going to be a good one ... and also getting excited about CoH!!!!

Heidi wrote: "Thanks, Wita and Mary for answering questions:)

So... I'm really looking forward to reading Ch. 21 this month, sounds like it's going to be a good one ... and also getting excited about CoH!!!!"

Chapter 21 is awesome, Heidi! It's definitely one of my favorite chapters of The Silmarillion. Now I really cannot wait to read CoH, have to admit that I did take a look a little bit, though Lol

Heidi wrote: "So I think it's going to be interesting by the time we get through all these books, to see how Jackson and Fran Walsh edited, manipulated Tolkien's work to theatrical effect. Like when I was reading about..."

It's kinda bothered me too, Heidi. With many (other) Tolkien books of Middle-earth related references, instead of using these valuable sources to enrich the content of the movie, they used it for supporting their own needs; making some 'adjustments' and somehow to justify what they did was acceptable such as creating the (new) character that didn't even exist in the book whom you know who... Duh! *facepalm

And sometimes I wonder what's exactly the words "an adaptation" meaning that attached in book-to-movie adaptation. How far they allow to create something new/different over the original story (by all means). As we've known, the copyright's owner was really upset and disappointed with these Tolkien book-movie adaptations.

I'd like to compare with some classic romance book-to-movie adaptations and perhaps you've might seen one of these movies. They didn't change the original story as they did to Tolkien's on screen. They portrayed each scenes beautifully based on the book. Why can't they do this on Tolkien movies? Or is it because they're from different genre? Or is there a particular reason that makes the difference between these two?

Wita wrote: "And sometimes I wonder what's exactly the words "an adaptation" meaning that attached in book-to-movie adaptation. How far they allow to create something new/different over the original story (by all means)...."

Wita, I think they have a lot of license on the adaptations. I think some of the adaptations, especially with sequencing, for the LoTRs movies were brilliant. Also, there had to be some cuts. Adapting can be quite creative. Some movies are better than the books, imho. It really depends on the vision of the script writers. BUT I haven't read LOTR completely in a looooooong time. I almost got through FoTR a couple years ago, and I thought the edits from film to screen for that part of the story was very good. But it will be fun to see it all and assess with fresh eyes. I am a HUGE fan of the LoTR moves:)

Oy, but The Hobbit. I've re-read that twice recently and the second two movie installments were heartbreaking. I did love the first one ...

Heidi wrote: "Wita, I think they have a lot of license on the adaptations. I think some of the adaptations, especially with sequencing, for the LoTRs movies were brilliant. ..."

Heidi, thank you for responding my question. What makes me wonder about the adaptations is only just because of the owner's disappointed (Christopher Tolkien) to these movies, not only TH, even LoTR is also on his list. So, it's kinda analyzing from the owner's PoV.
If the license on the adaptations said, short of, agree to allow any of creations or it's basically like they can do anything over the original story, the owner should aware about this and 'let it go' (Idk the words lol) whatever will happen in the movies.
That didn't happen on Tolkien, I think. Instead, they were upset and disappointed and decided not to give/keep the license of any other Tolkien's works to be adapted (until this moment). To me, this 'behaviour' is interesting. You should know/realize how the film industry will treat/make up your works (books) to be eye catching on big screen.
It will be different if the adaptations mentioned the owner's involved in the making of the movies. It's like JK Rowling on Harry Potter's (correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to give the example✌), though perhaps there was a particular reason why she was involved. So, in the end the both sides are happy of what's coming in the movies.
And actually, this is how I imagine the future for the adaptations of Tolkien's works.
About my personal opinion for the adaptations of Tolkien's work.... LoTR is the best (especially for cinematography and the cast). And for TH, just like you, I did love (only) the first movie.

Btw, will try to catch up until the recent discussions. I've got so much to give but it will take very slowly...😂

Wita, you're right, it's whatever specifics the contracts stated. I'm surprised to hear Christopher Tolkien didn't like LotR. Oh well. Maybe since he wasn't the primary author, i.e only editor and "keeper of the works" as it were, that is why he wasn't allowed as much control as JR Rowlings was over the Potter movies? If J.R.R. had been alive it's hard to imagine Jackson wouldn't have wanted to offer him more creative control, or at least input.

It's still hard for me to understand that Jackson did such a great job with LotR and then turned TH into such an obvious economic enterprise. Sigh. Maybe that's how Christopher saw LotR?

Did you ever hear any specifics of what Christopher didn't like about the films?

Heidi wrote: "Wita, you're right, it's whatever specifics the contracts stated. I'm surprised to hear Christopher Tolkien didn't like LotR. Oh well. Maybe since he wasn't the primary author, i.e only editor and ..."

Heidi,
It's always interesting to talk/discuss about Tolkien movies, isn't it? :). The point of CT wasn't the primary author is make sense. But, can it be negotiated in the contract regarding this exceptional condition? I wish it can be done because it will run over the Tolkien family (the legacy will continue from CT to his son) and the same reason is still used for they're not the primary author. How about the classic (romance) books that goes-to-movies, Heidi or anyone? If I'm not mistaken, I think these movies are well-adapted rather than what they did on Tolkien even the author already passed away a long ago before Tolkien. What do you guys think?

And absolutely, PJ will ask Tolkien to be kinda personal advisor in his fim making team if he had been alive. Fyr, PJ recruited John Howe and Alan Lee; the official Tolkien illustrator, as his lead concept artists in LOTR movies and Guillermo Del Toro recruited them too in Hobbit films before PJ took over*Wikipedia.

So, here's some links featuring the interview why Christopher Tolkien didn't like LoTR movies:
1. Article 1
2. Article 2
3. Article 3

Wita,

Again, thank you for providing the links to CT's issues with the movies for the group. They are really interesting, eye-opening reads.

It does seem like there's some "Follow the money" shenanigans going on here:

Like many quarrels in Hollywood, the Tolkien/Warner Bros. spat can be narrowed down to an argument about money. Part of the author’s estate’s contract with the film studio said that a percentage of the profits from any adaptation of Tolkien’s work would go back to them, and it became a bit of a controversy following the release of The Lord of The Rings trilogy. The three movies made a reported $2.9 billion at the global box office, but when those box office totals were combined with project’s expenses, the studio claimed that the movie didn’t make a profit – thus reportedly shortchanging the Tolkien estate. In an interview with Le Monde back in 2012, Tolkien Estate lawyer Cathleen Blackburn recounted, "These hugely popular films apparently did not make any profit! We were receiving statements saying that the producers did not owe the Tolkien Estate a dime."

I.e. as an ex-accountant and auditor, there are a lot of things that can creatively/legally be done with expensing to assure that net revenue is non-existent. The Tolkien estate should have contracted for Gross Revenue! Would CT have been happier with the movies if they'd made money for the estate? It seems they did make some as there was eventually a financial settlement. Plus, sales of the book have skyrocketed, plus as you mentioned an entire internet/social media kingdom has flourished around the work.

Writing a book is often a solo endeavor (notwithstanding spouses, writing companions, beta readers, and editors!) and film is so hugely collaborative. I'm just not one of those that wants to go see movie that is an exact replica of the book. I WANT to see something different. I want the film director, and actors, etc to bring something fresh and new. If it's just going to be an exact of the book, why bother! It's like if I go to a music concert, I don't want to hear the artist play the version of the song that's been recorded. I want something different, something "LIVE". But I just see these performance mediums as distinct and expect them to showcase that.

I'm sure that's just personal taste, and will probably be argued about by opposing sides forever, i.e. those who want an exact reproduction of a novel and those who want to see something "new".

I can see CT's point about the action movie and "dumbing down" of Tolkien's themes, but the bigger picture is that Tolkien's work has seeped into the global consciousness and a lot of people eventually get to the books. It's too bad he can't celebrate that.

Heidi wrote: "It does seem like there's some "Follow the money" shenanigans going on here:..."

Heidi,
You analyzed the issues logically, especially for those numbers and I love it! I think CT is a meticulous person. As you can see on his efforts of editing his father's complicated works; e.g. by doing some research, double check etc, things that show you he really pays attention to the details, a sort like that. So, there's no way that he neglected those financial reports, he won't miss it. And it only added to his 'unsatisfying assessment' on LoTR and TH movies. Of course, with respect, he honestly spoke on behalf of his father's works but sometimes it makes us wonder if there's something 'undisguised' behind his statements especially after knowing the financial fact of these movies.

As for the personal taste of books-goes-to-movies, I agree with your saying and it's interesting you used 'going to music concert' analogy to describe your own preference. I think I have my own vision about it. Even in the music concert, you still play the same song; referred to the original one. There's nothing change with the song. The way you deliver your song that's the 'art' of music concert. That's what exactly your audience looking for, their expectations is to see the difference between your music recorded version and your live performance. How you manage to package your live music to become such an entertaining show so that your audience can enjoy to watch your performance. There always be an improvisation treatment to make a difference, but still you can never leave your original music/song as a mindset.

That's what I picture for future Tolkien adaptation movies and especially for The Silmarillion, for its story that happened in First Age and Second Age is a HISTORY to Middle-earth. And I believe that you can't change the history which in this case, it already originally wrote in The Silmarillion book.