Bottom's Dream discussion
Book I. The Horrorfield....
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Book I. The Horrorfield, or The Language of Tsalal
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https://theuntranslated.wordpress.com...For those of you looking for a casual reading guide, see the very helpful blog posts at theuntranslated blog. Unfortunately, the project was abandoned before completion, but there are still 27 some week's worth of posts available.
The posts are based on the author's reading of ZT in the German. The linked post above helpfully identifies a number of the sources discussed in the opening segment - I wonder if the source materials are some how easier to identify in the original German (perhaps in light of the fact that some of the quoted passages appear in English and therefore stick out from the German in a way that they do not jump out to us readers reading the Woods translation, as Ronald and Matt have discussed in the anticipation thread.)
Oh my! Read page 1, came here to see how you are all doing and to ask why are we reading Bottom's Dream?
Page BD14/ZT8: Interest piquing- the Orient, rosary - like toy chains - made of all sorts of woods & stones-in the hands of millions of dignified=looking men spent the entire time amusing themselves by counting the beads of little rosaries.
Later we often saw such toy chains in the Orient; SCHARMDA
Schmarda visited Spain and the African coast in the 1884,86,87
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwi...
La Princesse De Trebisonde - an opera
https://youtu.be/_uURMTCo8sc
You have to close your eyes & move bead by bead ---You've never been in Kla before?
What does this all mean?
Page BD21/ZT15: POE veryvery= tidily converted his dipsomania into literaturedipsomania as "the most medical" of the many terms used to describe habitual drunkenness in the 19th century.[7] Along with terms such as "inebriety", the idea of dipsomania was used as part of an effort of medical professionals and reformers to change attitudes about habitual drunkenness from being a criminally punishable vice to being a medically treatable disease.
Page BD12/ZT6: Dragoman? In Arabic the word is ترجمان (tarjumān tercüman. Deriving from the Semiticquadriliteral root t-r-g-m, it appears inAkkadian as "targumannu," in Ge'ez (Classical Ethiopic) as t-r-gw-m, and in Aramaic astargemana. Hebrew makes a distinction between מתרגם (metargem)—referring to a translator of written texts—and מתורגמן (meturgeman) referring to an interpreter of spoken conversation or speeches. The latter is obviously more closely related to the other languages mentioned, though both are derived from the same Semitic root. There has been speculation of a Hittite origin of the term (Salonen, p. 12; Rabin, pp. 134–136).
During the Middle Ages the word entered European languages: in Middle English asdragman, in Old French as drugeman, inMiddle Latin as dragumannus, and in Middle Greek δραγομάνος. Later European variants include the German trutzelmann, the French or truchement (in modern French it is drogman), the Italian turcimanno, and theSpanish trujamán, trujimán and truchimán; these variants point to a Turkish or Arabic word "turjuman", with different vocalization.Webster's Dictionary of 1828 lists dragomanas well as the variants drogman andtruchman in English.
Consequently, the plural, in English, is "dragomans" (not "dragomen").
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragoman
These are endless, and there was a reply to the Wall Street Journal quote of mine, someone would never use reference material whilst reading, they'd take notes and do it later. Obviously has NO IDEA what this book is like.The Poe alcohol references are interesting given the Poe stories referenced, where alcohol plays a major role. Even in Pym there are turning points all alcohol infused.
I know you're aware but others may not be, I put my initial thoughts up at my blog here -
https://messybooker.wordpress.com/201...
I don't believe this is a book where we all come to the same answer, or arrive at the same place, and it may bring us closer to enlightenment but will probably not result in such. The journey will be fun,
Don't forget the "Dream" in the title, dreams are not subject to the daily rules of "time" and the references to Freud will shortly come.
A language fest that I'm just going to frolic through, never expecting (now wanting) to get into Schmidt's head.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "p. 21 HANS HENNY JAHNN - a not insignificant man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_..."Coming across this when I was starting BD thrilled me to no end - HHJ is name dropped at least three more times in the book as well.
Good to see you posting here Tony! I read about ten pages and then reread your blog post.It's going to be very helpful in understanding this book.I was glad that you drew attention to dragoman (in Arabic turjoman). I knew an Armenian with Turjoman as a last name.
I don't know how readers here feel about links. Found an essay that helps explain BD. Perhaps, too much info for those who like to figure things out on their own. I suppose at this stage of our reading, I do have to say spoiler alert, but again if you're one intent on understanding BD, this does help. There is so much to learn!!!To click or not to click? Your choice.
Volker Langbehn ©
Watching TV with Arno Schmidt
http://web.archive.org/web/2007100917...
Posting Tony's review of The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket – Edgar Allan Poe | Messenger's Booker (and more)https://messybooker.wordpress.com/201...
Saves us having to read it! Thanks Tony!!
The links to the Langbehn article have disappeared (I did print a copy so can PDF and load if people are really interested).
Page BD22/ZT16: Came across "the concluding quote for rounding out the alcohol debate- The just msn falls 7 times each day. I didn't know it. Looked it up - Proverbs 24:16 for though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble when calamity strikes.http://biblehub.com/proverbs/24-16.htm
funny: phall 7 times in 1 day? I never could've done that!
Page BD23/ZT17: Came across a reference to THE MOSAIC WORKER and thought I may find it in one of Poe's poems. Instead found it explained in The Untranslated blog. Have to say I love the description of the mosaic and the index cards! What a great visual! Reading Zettel’s Traum: Week 2, pp. 21-26 | The Untranslated
The second category is Mosaikarbeiter (Mosaic Worker). Arno Schmidt reckoned himself among the representatives of this class. The mosaic worker is an artisan who creates his texts from already available tesselae rather than through some mystical inspiration. In Arno Schmidt’s case the thousands of index cards perform the function of the coloured stones that compose the enormous mosaic of Zettel’s Traum. In his own words: “Ich bin ein fleißiger Mosaikarbeiter, kein Dichter” (I am a diligent mosaic worker, not a writer).
https://theuntranslated.wordpress.com...
Page BD23/ZT17: I think Tony may be right. One would need all of Poe to understand BD. I'm thinking that the reference p.23 to Poe being fixated on red and yello may be a reference to Poe's The Haunted Palace.
Banners yellow, glorious, golden,
On its roof did float and flow
(This—all this—was in the olden
Time long ago)
And travellers, now, within that valley,
Through the red-litten windows see
Vast forms that move fantastically
To a discordant melody;
The Haunted Palace by Edgar Allan Poe - Poetry Foundation
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Analysis
The poem serves as an allegory about a king "in the olden time long ago" who is afraid of evil forces that threaten him and his palace, foreshadowing impending doom. As part of "The Fall of the House of Usher", Poe said, "I mean to imply a mind haunted by phantoms — a disordered brain" [1] referring to Roderick Usher.
"The Haunted Palace" Analysis and Symbolism of "The Fall of the House of Usher" by Edgar Allan Poe
The palace is a symbol for the mind; the "two luminous windows" are the ruler's eyes.
Likewise, the "two luminous windows," or eyes, are now "red-litten" and bloodshot. The thoughts behind them are equally as twisted: as opposed to "spirits moving musically / to a lute's well-tuned law," the person's virtues have been overturned into madness personified by "vast forms" that, instead of dancing in harmony, "move fantastically / to a discordant melody." The "pale door" contrasts with the "glory that blushed and bloomed" so radiantly in better days. Finally, the hideous laughter that ends the poem is not the joyful noise of good times, happiness and reason, but the laughter of insanity and despair.
The contrast between order and chaos, reason and insanity, could not be more clear.
http://www.brighthubeducation.com/hom...
Question: what does capitalization of words signify?
Wow Mark!300 pages in. Well that is inspirational. Are you (just) reading or are you researching your way through?
For those of you interested: Here’s the real Schauerfeld (Horror Field), the property Arno Schmidt bought which is located not far from his house in Bargfeld. It’s only the long and narrow strip with trees on it in the center of the image.
(click to open in Google Maps)
Page BD30/ZT25: = : Atoms of words holding the nuclei of original meaning he called Etyme (etyms).
A = (Relative) atomic mass = Mass number = Sum of protons and neutrons N = Number of neutrons Z = Atomic number = Number of protons = Number of electrons
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but a working knowledge of Spenser would be greatly rewarded. References to his works come up more frequently than any other, save of course Poe's (and perhaps Freud).
Thanks Nick. The Untranslated does mention Spenser Amid banter and small talk, the company leaves the Field of Terror, going through the same typographically designated barbed wire fence: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Edmund Spenser’s epic poem The Faerie Queene and its influence on Poe’s novel are discussed. Pagenstecher quotes a passage that refers to the cannibalistic practices of a certain “savage nation”:
In these wylde deserts, where she now abode,
There dwelt a salvage nation, which did live
Of stealth and spoile, […]
Thereto they usde one most accursed order,
To eate the flesh of men, whom they mote fynde,
And straungers to devoure, which on their border
Were brought by errour, or by wreckfull wynde:
A monstrous cruelty [gainst course of kynde.]
from The Faerie Queene:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Page BD34/ZT30: Oh my -looked up Goethe as a shoe-fetishist (p.34) will just leave this link https://books.google.com/books?id=yx9...
Page BD35/ZT31: Trying to figure out Israfel Al Araaf Ul Alum.Israfil is an angel in Islam who will blow the trumpet on the Day of Judgement
" And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allaah wills”
[al-Zumar 39:68
Poe also writes a poem -Israfel http://www.eapoe.org/works/mabbott/to...
Al Araaf is Sura 7 of the Quran→الأعراف
Al-Aʻrāf
The Heights
Al-`Alamin is plural for `Alam, which encompasses everything in existence except Allah. The word `Alam is itself a plural word, having no singular form. The `Alamin are different creations that exist in the heavens and the earth, on land and at sea. Every generation of creation is called an `Alam. Al-Farra` and Abu `Ubayd said, "`Alam includes all that has a mind, the Jinns, mankind, the angels and the devils, but not the animals.'' Also, Zayd bin Aslam and Abu Muhaysin said, `Alam includes all that Allah has created with a soul.''
Bethlehem is Beit Lahem (meat house ) in Arabic.
Bethlehem (Arabic: بيت لحم Bayt Lahm[beːt.laħm], "House of Meat"; Hebrew: בֵּית לֶחֶם Bet Lehem, [bet ˈleχem], "House of Bread".
Page BD35/ZT31: Found the Al Araf connection to Poe! "Al Aaraaf" is an early poem by American writer Edgar Allan Poe, first published in 1829. It is based on stories from the Qur'an, and tells of the afterlife in a place called Al Aaraaf. At 422 lines, it is Poe's longest poem
Al Aaraaf - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Aa...
Page BD35/ZT31: Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore - Works - Poems - Al Aaraaf (Text-C)http://www.eapoe.org/works/poems/aara...
Did we come across the words Lalla Rookh? somehow I feel I read it somewhere.Additionally, Poe was indebted to Irish poet Thomas Moore, whose poem Lalla-Rookh inspired, among other parts of "Al Aaraaf", the catalogue of flowers near the beginning.[6] Another work by Moore, The Loves of the Angels, inspired Poe's idea of uniting mortal and immortal love.
Page BD35/ZT31: The most difficult of all Poe's poems, "Al Aaraaf," is also the work most heavily saturated with Eastern terms and concepts. This relatively lengthy work, which also utilizes elements from Shakespearean drama and Indian lore, is probably the most explicit example of the deep impression Middle Eastern thought made on Poe. The title of the poem-derived from an English version of the Koran - refers to an area between heaven and hell(al-a'raf- dividing lines) where departed souls can distinguish between the blessed and the damned. According to Poe's source - a commentary by the translator - this zone was a sort of limbo where mortals whose lives had been a perfect balance between good and evil remained until purified.From these suggestions, Poe created a sort of sanctum where the Spirit of Beauty sings hymns about the function of poetry, where fragments of earthly art are preserved and where a mortal foolishly dallies with an angel - to show that human passion has no place in the realm of pure spirit.
An allegory Poe's "Al Aaraaf" foreshadows several themes he would cherish throughout his career - art, love, the origin of the universe - and would develop later. No doubt these views, which Poe held with fervor, were inspired by various elements in his personal experience and wide reading, but Islamic thought apparently played a part too.
The poem, "Israfel" - its title derived from Islamic tradition - is simpler, shorter and less famous than "The Raven". It is also one of the most beautiful statements of its kind ever made. The gist of this Poe lyric is that Israfel, whose lyre is strung with his own "heart strings", makes music so compelling that even the stars pause in their cosmic motions to listen. Poe plays upon the idea of an angel's heart - its string being a fusion-image of emotion and spirituality, the blend producing sweeter sounds than mere mortals can hope to achieve:
If I could dwell
Where Israfel hath dwelt, and he where I,
He might not sing so wildly well a mortal melody,
While a bolder note than this might swell from my lyre within the sky.
Saudi Aramco World : Edgar Allan and the East
http://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue/...
Favour to ask, can you please put page numbers, otherwise its like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Something one reader may find interesting & pursue another may have glanced over. Agree on the numerous Spenser references (I'm lucky and read/studied that years ago in University), some references you won't pick up unless pointed out or you check every word you don't know (eg. Pg 12 "Archimago" - was the sorcerer in 'The Faerie Queen').
Page BD37/ZT33: There is mention of a Professor Charles Anthon whom Poe considered “The ‘most distinguished of American scholars’ ” as ‘Prof. Chas. Anthon, author of the ‘Classical Dictionary’.”Scroll down to letters: You will find links where they corresponded.
http://www.eapoe.org/people/anthonc.htm
Page BD38/ZT34: Anakim (Hebrew: עֲנָקִים 'Ǎnāqîm ) were described as a race of giants, descended from Anak, according to the Tanakh. They were said to have lived in the southern part of the land of Canaan, near Hebron (Gen. 23:2; Josh. 15:13).l Anakim (Bibl) A race of giants living in Palestine.
Poe writes of the anakim in:
The System of Dr. Tarr and Prof. Fether by Edgar Allan Poe
There were meats enough to have feasted the Anakim.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/poe...
For Anamoo=moo comes from
A theory about : THE LANGUAGE OF TSALAL: It is likely that most readers consider the words spoken by the black natives as mere nonsense syllables. Sidney Kaplan, however, in his preface to a paperback edition (New York, 1960), asserts that the natives ’ names are Hebrew and that they “speak a kind of Hebrew too.” Two Hebraists whom I consulted cast such doubt on this theory, though, that I sought an alternative explanation. It is here offered for commentary with a high degree of tentativeness, since I have no expertise in the languages involved.
The sequence from Morrell’s Narrative which Poe was minutely following in the Tsalal episode is concerned with a South Seas island, and it occurred to me that nearly all the words which Poe puts into his own natives ’ mouths exemplify the vowel sounds and the process of reduplication characteristic of Malayo-Polynesian languages. Acting on this hunch, I combed the only nineteenth-century dictionary of Pacific tongues which I could locate, Edward Tregear’s The Maori-Polynesian Comparative Dictionary(Christchurch, etc., New Zealand, n.d. [c. 1890?]). With [page 6:] full awareness of the confusing variety of ways in which Pacific languages may be transcribed in European orthographies, I offer my conjectural “translations” of Poe’s words according to Tregear’s spellings and definitions.
Anamoo-moo: from hana (to shine, to glow) plus mumu (to collect together, a swarm); hence, a collection of shining objects.
Lama-Lama: from lamalama (many lights, much light).
Too-wit: possibly tui, which Tregear gives as “a king, a governor.”
Klock-Klock: no word for “village” located which resembles Poe’s spelling; possibly an imitation of “click” sounds.
Wampoos/Yampoos: Tregear translates pu as “tribe”; the prefix somewhat resembles hau, meaning “illustrious, royal, commanding.”
Mattee non we pa pa si: mate is a common word meaning “to kill, to die”; papa can mean “race, family.” The other words are probably not Polynesian. Poe renders the sentence as “there was no need for arms where all were brothers.”
http://www.eapoe.org/pstudies/ps1960/...
Tekeli-li: under ririri Tregear gives tekelili (to shiver, to shake). But splitting Poe’s word into tiki (god) and lili (angry) would also fit the context.
Nu-Nu: Tregear gives several translations under nunu, none of which is particularly relevant as the name of this native.
Tsalal and Tsalemon/Psalemoun: not Polynesian, but drawn from a transliteration of the “Ethiopian [Geëz] verbal root” discussed in Poe’s concluding “Note.” The source here was Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon (Boston, 1836).
If there is any validity at all to my theory, more puzzles are raised than are solved. First, what could have been Poe’s source? Some travel book which contained (as many did) a glossary from which he drew? Consultation with some learned acquaintance like Professor Charles Anthon or J. N. Reynolds? Second, why Polynesian? My only guess here is that Poe originally had planned to take Pym on a Pacific cruise and shifted him to the Antarctic at a late stage of composition. Finally, why bury relevant meanings in a language which almost no reader of Pym could fathom? I can suggest only that Poe did plan some elucidation which was forestalled by a change in narrative line — or that he was here displaying an increasing interest in secret writing. (”Von Jung,” published late in 1837, is the only other early example of what would become a near-obsession with cryptography.)
Though several of the points which I have raised are puzzling questions, perhaps — like what song the Syrens sang — they are not beyond all conjecture.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "If there is any validity at all to my theory, more puzzles are raised than are solved. First, what could have been Poe’s source?"It would be good to create separate Threads (within the chapter Folder) for discussion questions like this so we don't have everything jumbled up in one thread.
And I wanted to recommend that we maybe have a pagination convention ;; since we do have several folks with the German text available ;; that we use both the BD and the ZT pagination -- in the English, the pagination for the first German edition is indicated in the >gutter< ( a good Schmidt etym ) of the pages. So for instance, the thread for the Beatles remark ::
BD23/ZT16 Beatles
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Because everything's gunna get lost in this thread.
I'll get a Folder for chapter 2 set up tomorrow.
Great suggestions NR & it's good to see we are getting it all S=orted as we go. (slang for anus is an "ort", couldn't resist).I have so much more to add it's the time that's killing me.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Nathan, where exactly is the ZT pagination? I don't see anything "in the gutter"."On the inside margins ; so on the right hand=page, the left column. So on BD37 you'll see (ZT) "33" in the left margin about mid=page.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Nathan, will delete my comments to clean up the thread."But please not before creating threads for each! We're just getting started and getting some kinks wrinkled out. Just title each thread with a page reference and maybe a word or two to represent what caught your attention. There's really no problem with having more than one thread per page ; there's just that much stuff.
Schmidt's hint:When an important writer recommends a work to you -- whether by openly naming the title; or by shy=covert use of it (which perhaps is the greater praise) then go right ahead and follow his [sic!, etc] momentous hint ! A man with expertise and taste has done trusty spade-work for you : {pre=reading} and winnowing 1000 volumes of antiquated chaff for you. Not to make grateful use of such a hint would mean my thoughtless=arrogant shoving aside all the precious, irreplaceable hours that a venerable predecessor spent reading for me.
Arno Schmidt, Radio Dialogs II
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Page BD 73/ ZT71 Put off by the crude writing so put BD to the side for a few days. Picked it up again and found something I do like.."Organizational point. Please put this comment in its own Thread ; in this Folder. It's a loooong book!
See first comment above!
BD89/ZT87another mention of Alaraaf. Not sure what it means here.
Yes, Alaraaf! Paul;
The title of the poem-derived from an English version of the Koran - refers to an area between heaven and hell (al-a'raf- dividing lines) where departed souls can distinguish between the blessed and the damned. According to Poe's source - a commentary by the translator - this zone was a sort of limbo where mortals whose lives had been a perfect balance between good and evil remained until purified.
From these suggestions, Poe created a sort of sanctum where the Spirit of Beauty sings hymns about the function of poetry, where fragments of earthly art are preserved and where a mortal foolishly dallies with an angel - to show that human passion has no place in the realm of pure spirit.
An allegory Poe's "Al Aaraaf" foreshadows several themes he would cherish throughout his career - art, love, the origin of the universe - and would develop later. No doubt these views, which Poe held with fervor, were inspired by various elements in his personal experience and wide reading, but Islamic thought apparently played a part too.
http://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue/...
I'm quite chuffed, book one done. Anybody know what the last 5-6 lines mean ? In English?
Tonymess wrote: "I'm quite chuffed, book one done. Anybody know what the last 5-6 lines mean ? In English?"Counting 1 to 10 in a language I'm not certain of. Google'l be glad to id them though I'm sure!
Congrats on surviving the Horrorfield!
Tonymess wrote: "I'm quite chuffed, book one done. Anybody know what the last 5-6 lines mean ? In English?"I took this from the German ZETTEL'S TRAUM. The spelling in BD is slightly different:
a mismo paso y compás = at the same pace and compass (Spanish; via Goggle Translate)
jeden, dwaj, tsio, štyro, péco, šėsćo, sedyḿo, wosyḿo, džeẃeco = 1 to 9 in Wendish ( http://www.zeno.org/Pierer-1857/A/Wen... )
siempre a mi lado = always by my side (Spanish; GT)
džesaćo = 10 (Wendish)
I'll be a less than adequate moderator over the next short period of future time ;; so y'all behave yourselves. I'll be around if needed ; but away from this Ungehauere Text. [also, we've got 3 other mod;s here so y'all be just fine]