The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm not used to being completely confused by a book. But my Kindle tells me that I'm 15% into the story and I have no idea what's going on. Part of it is definitely weird word usage, such as using verbs as nouns ("the Transcend"), part of it is the story "changing" after the opening couple of chapters. This book reads like documents that I read at work, written by engineers with mixed tenses and weird phrases (may not be mixed tenses here). I got to the first "post" and that also didn't seem to make sense.

I'm ready to Lem the book, as due to this confusion, I'm completely disengaged...I don't want to. Is it going to start making sense soon?

By 15% in I was totally hooked and it only gets better from there.
I think it is one of the best sci-fi books we've read for S&L.

The story is about what happens when artificial intelligence gets to a point that it can control whole civilisations. These powers are tens of millenia past the Singularity.
The Blight is an all powerful AI that was awakened by the humans. The humans we meet are on the last surviving spacecraft from the expedition to study the archive where the blight was. Aboard their ship is something that can stop the Blight.

The different zones, as far as I can tell, affect how well computers can perform. Ships in the Slow zone have to move slower because the computations to perform FTL jumps take longer to do.

To be honest, I think Vinge's physics have no bearing on real life physics. It's just easier to go along with his rules and understand that parts of his universe are harder to travel through and some easier, because "magic" particles ;-)

I enjoyed the Tine's World sections more than what was going on in the rest of the story.

I was starting to get hooked, although there was still quite a bit I didn't understand at that point. I do like how Vinge drops you into viewpoints that are alien, but you don't realize it.

There is definitely something different about the physics in the different zones. Part of the preparation for the OOB II's trip (I realize this gets close to spoilery, but the map in the beginning talks about this) talks about there being a different kind of engine in case they end up in the slow zone. I also think that you can't transmit data as well which is why the powers stay out of the slower zones.

terpkristin wrote: " I got to the first "post" and that also didn't seem to make sense."

Of course it doesn't make sense. It's basically a spam message saying, "click here download free photoshop http://www.totallysafewarez.ru". Only in this case, instead of a botnet hijacking your PC, your brain gets infected by a virus that will take over your whole civilization.

terpkristin wrote: "I'm not used to being completely confused by a book. But my Kindle tells me that I'm 15% into the story and I have no idea what's going on. Part of it is definitely weird word usage, such as using ..."

At 18% I'm still confused but I decided to accept my confusion and just keep reading/listening. I think it's better when you listen to it on audiobook ... Then all the strange names and words are just some "weird background". The parts about the Tines are not really confusing, (view spoiler)[although I'm not sure if a civilization without fingers could have evolved even to the middle ages (hide spoiler)] These parts are like two completely different stories. I really like reading about Steel and the way he thinks...
But I have difficulties imagining all the other aliens...

Sean wrote: "Only in this case, instead of a botnet hijacking your PC, your brain gets infected by a virus that will take over your whole civilization."
Oh I didn't get the part with the brain ... I thought it's just their computers that get infected and then the Power kills them with their own technology like in the first chapter.

And I'm not sure how to imagine the archives...

Olga wrote: "And I'm not sure how to imagine the archives...
"

Early 90s cyberpunk, probably. Think TRON :D

50% in, still slightly confused but I think I'm getting there.

Olga wrote: At 18% I'm still confused but I decided to accept my confusion and just keep reading/listening. I think it's better when you listen to it on audiobook ...

I'm the exact opposite. I started off with the audiobook and was completely put off from the book because I kept getting lost and had to rewind, etc. Once I switched to the dead tree version (thanks local library!) I started getting much more engaged. I think my problem is that I'm never just listening to an audiobook. I'm always doing chores or exercising or whatever. This book for me is something that I have to focus on for it to click.

edit: I wanted to add that I was listening to the old cassette version and not the updated audible version ($52 audible really?!?) so maybe that would change things.

terpkristin wrote: "I'm not used to being completely confused by a book. But my Kindle tells me that I'm 15% into the story and I have no idea what's going on. Part of it is definitely weird word usage, such as using ..."

You... DO read SF, yes? That probably comes off badly, but complaining about the idea of zones and the Transcend and being confused by new/made up terms is something I hear more from people who are new to SF and dislike/don't get the use of made up terms like that.

Robert wrote: "Olga wrote: At 18% I'm still confused but I decided to accept my confusion and just keep reading/listening. I think it's better when you listen to it on audiobook ...

I'm the exact opposite. I st..."

I actually don't think this would work well as an audiobook. Not everything does, especially works that are introducing different concepts where you do need to focus and not semi-read the book as you're doing chores, etc

I was hooked after reading the prologue. But this does take careful reading (or listening) to figure out what's going on. Now at 27% and I'm starting to assemble the pieces. Just finished the (view spoiler)[ part about Ravna and the pseudo-man. (hide spoiler)] And my big question is right now (view spoiler)[what exactly happened in Straumli Realm from the Blight? Everyone is going "Oh, that was a terrible thing", but they don't exactly say what happened. Did all the humans get killed? Was their government (or equivalent) taken over? There is so much that is implied. Do we find out later? (hide spoiler)]

Maclurker wrote: "I was hooked after reading the prologue. But this does take careful reading (or listening) to figure out what's going on. Now at 27% and I'm starting to assemble the pieces. Just finished the [spoi..."
We do... I think. I'm about halfway through, and (view spoiler)[it's implied that all the people within the Blight's sphere of influence are "empty", remote-controlled puppets, kind of like Pham was when Old One took direct control, but without any of their original personality left (hide spoiler)]

Ugh. 16% in and like terpkristin I'm thinking about Lemming it. It's the type of SF that relies on The This & The That doing The What for The Reasons. The LOL

Just looking like the type of SF which makes me have to think way too much to keep up w/ it. This is for the Kindle version too. I would have been lost w/ the audiobook.

Jeff wrote: "Ugh. 16% in and like terpkristin I'm thinking about Lemming it. It's the type of SF that relies on The This & The That doing The What for The Reasons. The LOL

Just looking like the type of SF whic..."

I agree, all the jargon is a bit annoying, but the fact that some of the characters are wolfpacks and potted plants keeps me interested

Rick wrote: "You... DO read SF, yes? That probably comes off badly, but complaining about the idea of zones and the Transcend and being confused by new/made up terms is something I hear more from people who are new to SF and dislike/don't get the use of made up terms like that."

Yes, though I far prefer fantasy. And these aren't made up words. They are words with actual meaning (and word types) being perverted. I'd FAR prefer made up words like thingie and zoombot. The book is totally not grabbing me. I'm going to give it another 5% and if it still not grabbing me, I'll quit. Reading this thread I don't have much optimism. And it's making me not want to read, which is counter-productive.

Dominik wrote: I agree, all the jargon is a bit annoying, but the fact that some of the characters are wolfpacks and potted plants keeps me interested."
I know. I really love these aliens.

The potted plants are one of the best parts. That, and the extended analogy to freeway traffic. I couldn't read this book again just for those, but there are high points of the book. Vinge seems to do well with his core audience, which isn't me. I need some actual plot development and a cohesive story, rather than endless commentary on technological trends.

terpkristin wrote: "Yes, though I far prefer fantasy. And these aren't made up words. They are words with actual meaning (and word types) being perverted. "

Perverting words is what Americans do.

Sean wrote: "terpkristin wrote: "Yes, though I far prefer fantasy. And these aren't made up words. They are words with actual meaning (and word types) being perverted. "

Perverting words is what Americans do."

It's what the english speaking world does. That's how language evolves, or devolves ;-) . I had no problem with Vinge's "misuse" of words as we do it all the time.

Rubbish, gift, bookmark, text & juice were all just nouns originally. But are perfectly acceptable as verbs now. So taking a verb (transcend) and using it as a noun is not really that bad, and not unique.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Rubbish, gift, bookmark, text & juice were all just nouns originally. But are perfectly acceptable as verbs now. So taking a verb (transcend) and using it as a noun is not really that bad, and not unique. "

In fact, there are plenty of examples of just that in English -- haven't you ever gone for a walk, or a run, or a swim, or a drive, or to a dance, a viewing, a christening, a reading, or a ribbon-cutting?

Yeah, not sympathetic to the idea that calling a zone of space The Transcend is the huge obstacle when the entire premise of the book requires you to suspend disbelief about how physical laws operate in zones of space and that there can be near-godlike AI weapons that work across vast distances.

Some people simply don't like SF and that's fine and if this book isn't grabbing someone, eh, that happens. The idea that altered words are the stumbling block puzzles me given what fantasy often does, but
...that's me.

Rubbish, gift, bookmark, text & juice were all just nouns originally. But are perfectly acceptable as verbs now. So taking a verb (transcend) and using it as a noun is not really that bad, and not unique.


It's also shorthand for "where transcended civilizations exist" so it's logical within the context of the book's world.

I was just thinking that there wasn't a lot of discussion going on this month, but this thread at least shows that people are reading the book, even if you're not all loving it ...

It was a little disjointed at the beginning, but I'm enjoying how the story plays out across the different levels of civilisation, even if the physics of the different zones does seem completely bogus!

I'm loving it, for what it's worth ;) The split narrative makes it a bit of slog for me, and I prefer the space opera parts and not the medieval Tine parts (the opposite of most other people here, it seems), but I do like it a lot so far.

I think AFUTD is one of the best SF stories ever written. A definite five-star book. Granted, Vinge doesn't spell things out for you. He is clearly in the show rather than tell camp and doesn't give big data dumps. The reader has to pay attention.

Tassie Dave wrote: "By 15% in I was totally hooked and it only gets better from there.
I think it is one of the best sci-fi books we've read for S&L. ..."

Once again we are simpatico.

Jeff wrote: "Ugh. 16% in and like terpkristin I'm thinking about Lemming it. It's the type of SF that relies on The This & The That doing The What for The Reasons. The LOL"

Awesome. (Although isn't that pretty much every story?)

Clyde wrote: "I think AFUTD is one of the best SF stories ever written. A definite five-star book. Granted, Vinge doesn't spell things out for you. He is clearly in the show rather than tell camp and doesn't give big data dumps. The reader has to pay attention. "

Actually, he does do infodumps, generally whenever the scene changes to somewhere new, but they merge so seamlessly into the narrative that you barely notice.

When he does them, he also downshifts from 3rd person omniscient into 3rd person limited, which many authors do, but the transition is barely noticeable, even in print where there's a blank line between the two sections. It helps that the background history stuff is rarely longer than a page. He sets the scene and then off we go.

Rick wrote: "Yeah, not sympathetic to the idea that calling a zone of space The Transcend is the huge obstacle when the entire premise of the book requires you to suspend disbelief about how physical laws opera..."

I didn't say that was the issue, I used it as an example (and it may not be the entire "problem" though it's certainly some of it...or maybe the lack of context for the odd language usage). At 15% I have no idea what's going on and it's causing me to be completely disengaged and unmotivated to read. I'll try to get to 20%. Or not. Either way this thread has served the purpose I need (and some I didn't), so I'm done.

Tassie Dave wrote: "The different zones, as far as I can tell, affect how well computers can perform. Ships in the Slow zone have to move slower because the computations to perform FTL jumps take longer to do.

To be honest, I think Vinge's physics have no bearing on real life physics. It's just easier to go along with his rules and understand that parts of his universe are harder to travel through and some easier, because "magic" particles ;-) ..."


Last point first - the physics are *entirely* speculative. Unless one is a hardcore "only known science in my SF" case, then you get this in SF. Even something as basic as FTL is beyond known physics. If this bothers someone, stop now (and if you read fantasy and this bothers you I don't know what to say...).

The zones are about where FTL is possible. Limits are progressively raised as you move outward into the Zones - in the Slow Zone there's no FTL possible and because the speed of things is limited, no true AI. FTL and AI become possible in the Beyond, with the limits being raised as you move out into the Beyond and in the Transcend, no one really understands the rules.

It's actually a nifty workaround for why we seem to have a hard and fast speed of light limit here while it allows for FTL and thus star-spanning stories elsewhere.

Yep, the zones follow no known laws of physics. OTOH they are a hilarious analogy for Los Angeles traffic and Vinge lives in San Diego. I can just imagine him going to a LASFS meeting and getting stuck in traffic, then coming up with this.

If we're going to stick to the known laws of physics, we can turn to early Niven like Protector or A Gift From Earth. Most of Known Space wouldn't make it due to warp drive, and Ringworld is preposterous - but why let that spoil the fun?

John (Taloni) wrote: "If we're going to stick to the known laws of physics, we can turn to early Niven like Protector or A Gift From Earth. Most of Known Space wouldn't make it due to warp drive, and Ringworld is preposterous - but why let that spoil the fun?"

Even those are patently silly. And beyond imaginary physics, Niven doesn't get biology right. (Humans didnt evolve on Earth, and etc.) I love Protector, it's easily my favorite Known Space book, but it's every bit as scientifically preposterous as Star Trek or Star Wars.

As far as AFUTD, I'm assuming the various Zones have to do with the influence of the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy. Pure fan-handwavium, but so far it works for me. (I'm halfway though the book.)

Clyde wrote: "I think AFUTD is one of the best SF stories ever written. A definite five-star book. Granted, Vinge doesn't spell things out for you. He is clearly in the show rather than tell camp and doesn't giv..."

in total agreement here, reading books that are confusing in the begining is a feature for me, not a bug