Goodreads Ireland discussion

A few thoughts / Questions to for people to think on for the book.
Pat Rothfuss, a famous fantasy writer rates this as Pratchetts best book, largely down to how good Tiffany the young girl who is the main character is. He wishes he had a daughter to give the book to .
Does a late middle age man manage to write a pre-teen girl that well?
What do people see as her Strengths?

Witches magic in the book largely comes down to what is called Headology in Pratchetts other books.
How much of Headology is actually magic?

What the hell are the Nac Mac Feegle saying half the time?
Are they bad or good in general.?

Pratchett made a habit of playing and inverting fantasy tropes/cliches in his books.
What are the main tropes he plays with here?

I'll be particlularly curious to hear what people thought of the 'MAGIC' in the book.

So does he write a teenage girl well? Yes, I think he gives a good introduction to the character, I don't think we learn necessarily a whole lot about her. She's a hard working girl who seems a bit miffed when her younger brother comes along and she's forced to have him trapse around after her. It was a very honest perspective of sibling relationships, he seems to grow on her towards the end of the story.
I could follow what the nac mac fees were saying for the majority of the book except one or two occasions. My favourite line was 'you can take our lives but you'll never take our trousers' and enjoyed the way they believed they were all dead already.
The 'magic' element of the story seemed more like having good life skills like problem solving and level headedness, being able to talk your way out of a situation more than any magic. Even her grandmothers magic was more that she had a way with the land and with people and a nature that made others listen to her.

Good point on the sibling relations. The bit of internal wrangling about her brother is , I would imagine very close to the truth of how older siblings feel when burdened with the little brother or sister. Love the conclusion that he may annoy the hell out of me but he's mine.
One of my favourite lines , and it sums up a lot of Pratchetts approach, Its still magic even if you know how its done.
I quite like that a book aimed at the younger audience shows how cleverness ,common sense and hard work can make you great, its a rare thing to see in books.

I think there is a Nac mac Feegle dictionary somewhere in one of Terrys books. I think the language would be ok for us Irish but I know from the Pratchett forum I'm in a lot of Americans had trouble .

Words are very powerful to the Nac Mac feegles. I think Granny felt the same way so she said very little.

I love the names in this book. The whole miss tick,miss teak discussion was fun. Terry Pratchett loved to play with words in a fun way.

Its a theme through Pratchetts works , the power of words, stories and music crops up quite a bit.

Another interesting observation here. Structure wise Pratchett is infamous for two things , no chapters and footnotes. But for this book (and series) he has a definite chapter set up and structure. Curious change for him.

Would this be one of his earlier books Paul or where Abouts does it fall? I love his footnotes, there's always something clever or witty in them

One of the later ones , possibly around 30 on the DW run of things

I bet Pratchett was close to his daughter. That would explain why he understands a little girl so well.

Wow I actually pictured her as a teenager for the entire story

I think I did as well but someone explained to me before that proper country children have to grow up an become self reliant that little bit earlier

I think that's true Paul. Also in the pre-kidnap days, kids ran until the streetlights came on, checked in and sometimes even went out after that. They showed up for lunch and supper though.

Paul wrote: "A few thoughts / Questions to for people to think on for the book.
Pat Rothfuss, a famous fantasy writer rates this as Pratchetts best book, largely down to how good Tiffany the young girl who is ..."

Tiffany is a girl with a lot of common sense. She has good self control which allows her to make wise decisions. She doesn't run away but she plows through her fears with a fry pan.

I think that as Pratchett wrote more female protagonists, he became better and better at them. His first Witches story was good, but you can see over the course of the next few he creates real characters who are far more realistic/believable than the trope of 'attractive female love interest' that he initially mocked in his books. I think that Tiffany is the culmination of a lot of what he learned about writing good female characters. She's level-headed, doesn't depend on others to sort out her problems, and her role models are her wise grandmother (who everyone respected) and Granny Weatherwax, the greatest person Pratchett ever created. Most of Tiffany's thoughts are a mix of protection of her family/land and the desire to be the best at who she can be.

Also, interesting that Pat Rothfuss considers this to be Pratchett's best work. He's not very adept at writing women, they usually become a 'small slender beautiful girl who is too delicate for this world' kinda thing. Maybe he'll take some of this on board for the final installment of his Kingkiller trilogy!

Its interesting that Pratchetts three strongest characters for me , Sam Vimes , Granny Weatherwax and Tiffany all have a very similar internal conundrum going on, all have the capacity to do bad things , a part of them wants to but they police themselves internally.
Its quite an interesting idea, best shown in this book for Tiffany, Carpe Jugulum for Granny and Thud for Vimes.

Rothfuss is pretty terrible at his female characters but forgive him (unless he takes much bloody longer on book 3)
I think Pratchett has always tried for the strong female character, even going right back to his early stuff like Strata , but agree he improved with time.

Paul wrote: "A few thoughts / Questions to for people to think on for the book.
Pat Rothfuss, a famous fantasy writer rates this as Pratchetts best book, largely down to how good Tiffany the young girl who is ..."

I loved Tiffany. I loved that she she read the entire dictionary because noone told her she wasn't meant to, I loved her thoughts on fairy tales, her bravery, pragmatism and good old fashioned common sense. Yes, she is old for her years, but pre-teen girls do tend act like grown-up, much more so than little boys who have a tendency to fart jokes and toilet humour.
We have to bear in mind that Tiffany is an eldest child so it comes naturally to her to take control of a situation. She is naturally precocious and and intelligent. She is not yet burdened with the preconceptions of of adulthood: noone has told her that she can't see little blue men so she's not that surprised to see them!
I can't agree that this Pratchetts best book though. I've read maybe 20 of them over the years and my favourite is still Small Gods. Tiffany is one the best charactors that I've ever come across, but I've read much better plots. If it wasn't for the strength of the main character, and the appeal of Pratchetts humour, this would have been a 3* read for me.

Wow Margo! If this isn't as good as Pratchett's other books, I need to read more! I really love this book. I like walking through the bizarre dream world with Tiffany. Even in that realm she's very logical.

You're right about the oldest child. There's a logical and grown up approach to things at times. It was off and on with my daughter though lol! She still looks at some things with a more intellectual way than most. My oldest brother does too. But in both cases it's not all the time!

Sherry, I have a tendency to rate favourite authors more toughly than unknowns! I think it's to do with expectations lol I'm a big fan and would have no hesitation recommending his books to anyone. As to favorites - it comes down to individual tastes ;-)

I'd agree its not Pratchetts best. My favourite is Night Watch but I do think its a great gateway book to Pratchett before hitting the main stuff.

Margo I felt the same about the plot. I was not really interested in it and glazed over for the 4 or 5 chapters with the queen. But Tiffany is an amazing character and so are the Nac Mac Feegle. Tiffany isn't the oldest though. She has two older sisters who we are told hang around the sheep pens at shearing time to look at the young shearers.

Yeah they do mention shes the youngest of a bunch of girls until the sticky brother showed up.

The whole super awake is too much to handle thing actually makes sense to me. It's best to be in a normal awake state with a little dreamy here and there than constantly hyper aware. It's really very cleverly written.

Paul wrote: "What the hell are the Nac Mac Feegle saying half the time?
Are they bad or good in general.?"

The Nac Mac feegles are little heroes with bad habits. :D

Margo wrote: "Sherry, I have a tendency to rate favourite authors more toughly than unknowns! I think it's to do with expectations lol I'm a big fan and would have no hesitation recommending his books to anyone...."

We always expect more from the ones we love the most. :-)

Good answer :-)
I like that on the surface everything about them can be seen as bad, with drunken violence and thieving but they are actually a good lot really.
The bit where they proclaim they would never steal from anyone who is poor as its just wrong and show their principles and kind hearts. They take care of the Sheep long after Granny Aching is gone and they go in to anything with absolute determination. Myself and Trelawn where laughing about their training of the cat to leave the birds alone. Brilliant

Trelawn wrote: "Margo I felt the same about the plot. I was not really interested in it and glazed over for the 4 or 5 chapters with the queen. But Tiffany is an amazing character and so are the Nac Mac Feegle. Ti..."

Oh, that's right! I remember that she was v dismissive of them. Well, she has characteristics of an eldest sibling. Goes to show that children are small people and can't be generalized :-)

Sherry, great comment :-D

That cat scene cracked me up altogether, it was just so funny. And when they were stealing the sheep, you can just picture this floating sheep tearing off up the field

Paul wrote: "Witches magic in the book largely comes down to what is called Headology in Pratchetts other books.
How much of Headology is actually magic?"

Magic is a very subjective term. I remember once watching an old film where the main character was transported back in time and named as a witch because someone saw him strike a match! Seems we used to call anything outside of our experience "magic". Nowadays we are a race of debunkers and enjoy trying to spot the "trick" in things. To me science is full of magic and shows us new tricks every day.

Paul wrote: "What the hell are the Nac Mac Feegle saying half the time?
Are they bad or good in general.?"

I think listening to the audio was a definate advantage with the wee free men. The narrator (Stephen Briggs) made it all very understandable. I think it would have done my head in trying to decipher what they were saying. As to them being good or bad, I don't think those are concepts that they would understand. They are essentially an alien species and not bound by our concepts of morality. They do what is best for themselves, like all animals - including humans ;-)

I must listen to how Stephen Briggs does the Nac mac Feegle.

The Nac Mac Feegle are definitely goodies. Right they drink and steal (but not from the poor) but they have good intentions in all they do for Tiffany. They train the cat because it genuinely frustrates her that he preys on baby birds. They help rescue Wentworth even though it means going up against the Queen. They know her and know what she is capable of but they go anyway. That says a lot. They are little blue optimists, they find the silver lining in everything. Even when Tiffany tells them the treasure is fairy gold and will disappear they don't get disheartened. Rob announces they have about half an hour to sell it and asks permission to "go offski". Love them

Trelawn wrote: "The Nac Mac Feegle are definitely goodies. Right they drink and steal (but not from the poor) but they have good intentions in all they do for Tiffany. They train the cat because it genuinely frust..."

They really are lovable. I'm glad Rob Anybody found a nice little wife too!

Seraphina wrote: "That cat scene cracked me up altogether, it was just so funny. And when they were stealing the sheep, you can just picture this floating sheep tearing off up the field"

Yes! So funny!

Clarke's 3rd Law - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Interesting here, in an agrarian feudal society, governed in part by tradition and superstition, that the application of logic, the avoidance of assumption and bias could lead to perception of witchcraft in Granny Aching and Tiffany.
nice character in Tiffany Aching, and as expected enjoyed the humour and puns.

Took a look at Richard Dadd's The Fairy Fellers Master Stroke which inspired parts of the story, shows fairy king and queen watching as woodsman raises axe to crack a nut,
Painted while artist was incarcerated in asylum, painting inspired a Queen song also,
could get lost down these tracks through wikipedia,
and there's a character in the painting that to my eye looks kinda like Pratchett...

followed one of the trails a few more steps till the inevitable consequence - having to add a new book to be read
"Witchcraft to the ignorant, … simple science to the learned"
The Sword of Rhiannon by Leigh Brackett

If you are into philosophy you should try The Golden Bough. It looks at the progress of society from magic to religion then science

thanks... now TBR

Sorry ;-)

Andy wrote: "Clarke's 3rd Law - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Interesting here, in an agrarian feudal society, governed in part by tradition and superstition, that the a..."

I had to google the painting. Now I'm interested in the artist.

me too Sherry - did you find the guy resembling Pratchett? - or maybe my imagination

There's a little guy with a white beard sitting on a log who looks a little like Pratchett.

Richard Dadd had such a sad life but he was able to paint as much as he could in the asylums. His painting of The Flight Out of Egypt is beautiful. I'll post a very good article about him on another thread.

After reading some of the comments here I think I need to reread this book. I have no memory of some the events you guys talk about. That's the problem with listening to audio whan you're not well. It's easy to zone out without even knowing it :-(

Margo, I dont always retain whether reading or listening. It can be very frustrating.

The same thing happened either way. If we never heard of electricity and saw someone turn on the TV and you saw people inside, it might look like magic. If you learned exactly how it happened it would still amaze you that it happened.

There's a show here called ancient aliens. Everything they can't explain was done by aliens. The pyramids were built by aliens because we can't explain how they did it. I think those guys who do the show know that's not rue but they have viewers and it works for them. People need an explanation. If they can't find one, they make one up.

Magic is the catch-all explanation for things you don't understand. In Tiffany's mind, the magic doesn't go away when she learns how it's done. She's still amazed by new things and it feels magical.