North & South discussion

For discussion of chapters 1-5:

I love the opening scene describing the country setting. Gaskell gives lots of details in her descriptions of place.

Comparing this story to N&S will be inevitable. I think John Barton's rather biting description of a "lady" fits Fanny Thornton perfectly! Lol.

"a do-nothing lady, worrying shopmen all morning, and screeching at her pianny all afternoon, and going to bed without having done a good turn to any one of God's creatures but herself."

What do think has happened to Esther? The Barton women are beauties. Beauty is something I've been mulling over in other Victorian stories. Is it a benefit to a girl in that era, or can it be something of a curse?

What's your impression of John Barton's home as compared to Higgins in N&S? Compared to Alice's cellar dwelling, it seems a fair enough dwelling.

It looks like we'll need to start a body count! By chapter 3, we've already lost a main character!

Gaskell sure likes to kill them off! I got a fair start on it, and as always, I just love her prose.

I am half way through now and don't remember exactly where chapter five ends. Can someone summarise it here, so that those who are further in their reading don't spoil anything for those who haven't?

Gaskell's lyrical descriptions of country life get me every time.

Emilia, the best way is to hide comments about a particular chapter is with HTML coding (web language). You can learn about this by clicking on the "some html is okay" link above the comment box.

The spoiler coding is what hides stuff in discussions and reviews.

Emilia- chapter 5 ends with the fire at Carson's mill and Jem Wilson's brave rescue.

It's interesting to notice how independent Mary is. She rebels at any assumption that she belongs with Jem. Why do you suppose she does that?

Thanks guys. I am listening to it on audiobook so it's hard for me to go back and check each chapter separately!

Mary's resistance to Jem, while everybody else kept elbowing her in his direction was so well observed of Gaskell! Imagine your uncle or other older family friend kept hinting you in the direction of some boy when you were Mary's age - I'd be just as embarrassed and reluctant.

Of course the burning mill scene was the one that established Jem as hero material. He is quite swoon-worthy :)

It seems wholly understandable to the modern mind that a girl would resist the hints others continue to give about her future spouse. But is Mary's reaction typical for a Victorian girl of her station? I can imagine that a girl like Margaret might be pleased and reassured by such comments that make her future feel more secure. After all, a girl depended on a good marriage to settle her lot in life.
Jem seems a good enough guy. What's up with Mary may be that she believes she can do "better."

We'll see about that.

Nicole wrote: "Gaskell sure likes to kill them off! " Good one, Nicole! I admit I was taken aback at such an early demise.

EG always seems so modern to me--Mary's independence, the way she refuses to go into service and, as Trudy notes, also the way she resists Jem.

I'm only up to Chapter V so far but I'm finding Mary a complex heroine, with her vanity and strongmindedness. I like the scene where Mary listens to Margaret singing--there was a sweetness that I hadn't seen in her before.

I think I've found a version of the song Margaret sings but I confess I'm not 100% sure since the accent is tough to follow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dakcx...

I'm not sure either, but I love getting a feel for the songs of that type. Thanks for sharing!
Music and their accompanying lyrics are important cultural treasures.

Wow, thanks for the link Hana! Haunting song.

I think partially Mary's independent spirit is not so much modern but to do with her class and upbringing. She is the eldest of the children in the household, would have had a lot of responsibility in her life, and so long as there was work to be had she would have been relatively well off. To that she's remarked as being very physically attractive, which would have spoiled her when it came to men. I think her psychological portrait as Gaskell paints her is quite consistent with what can be expected. I think it's just really well observed, and her reactions felt real to me, it reminded me of my own feelings at that age: she is, at this stage, a mixture of immature, spoilt and strong-minded. Age wise I think she's younger than Margaret from N&S, and you can tell, too, by her behaviour. At this stage though, her whole arc is still ahead of her, of course, and I guess we'll see how she turns out in the end.

Emilia wrote:
I think partially Mary's independent spirit is not so much modern but to do with her class and upbringing. She is the eldest of the children in the h..."

I think you've summed up Mary very well. Her youth, beauty, and situation must be considered.

I also think Gaskell wanted us to recognize that Mary is influenced by the hope her Aunt Esther instilled in her -- that Mary has a chance to move up in life through her beauty (catching a rich husband).

I am still on chapter four but I feel that Gaskell is creating a headstrong, defiant, beautiful and independent heroine in Mary. She reminds me a bit of Margaret Hale from North and South. It is interesting that Mr. Barton does not want his daughter to work in the factory because of his dislike for the toil on her life and labouring for a rich class that he feels does not help working people but Mary (the daughter) sees the apprentice as a dressmaker as a way to get into the genteel class (the same class her father dislike). Oh this is going to be good!

Noirfifre wrote: "I am still on chapter four but I feel that Gaskell is creating a headstrong, defiant, beautiful and independent heroine in Mary. She reminds me a bit of Margaret Hale from North and South. It is in..."

Mary reminds me a bit of Margaret Hale as well. Capable, rather headstrong and a great support to her father. Interesting parallels.

Does your book have footnotes? In my copy there is a footnote explaining that one of the reasons her father doesn't want her working in the factory is the belief that it will lead to sexual promiscuity. Mill girls (true or unfair labelling, I don't know) were said to be unchaste. And with Mary being so pretty, I can see how her father would be especially protective.

Something that I noticed again while reading these opening chapters is that Gaskell is trying to show her middle-class/wealthy readers that the people of the lower class are not animals, but humans who also love their children, have orderly homes, and are often unselfish.

Alice in particular seems to be a great example of someone whose ethics are very high, although she has very little means to live on, she gives much of her time to others.

And Gaskell makes a point of telling us how many of these working class men are self-made scholars of science -- like Job Leigh. She's attempting to break the stereotypes that would demean the underclass.

Yes, Trudy! In fact, she addresses the middle class, her presumed audience, directly on this point in several places, if I'm not mistaken. She's abandoned that method of conveying her point by the time of N&S. I guess it's a bit on the nose. Apparently, when the book was published, it received mixed reviews, with some accusing her of being biased and not presenting a balanced picture!

I loved Job Leigh and I find him quite believable. He makes me think how much we lose when society defines intelligence and skill and worthiness in the narrowest way.

Aunt Esther is sketched so briefly yet I felt her influence as well, Trudy. I suspect the Biblical names are there for a reason...Job, Ester, Margaret, Mary? It can't just be "these were the cool names in 1847!"

Yes, patient and wise Job. Beautiful Esther trying to save her family.
Margaret and Mary were very common names of the time, I believe.

I think it's interesting that Gaskell originally intended to title this "John Barton" but the publisher thought it should be changed.

So far -- I'm up to chapter 16, it does seem the story is centering more on Mary's experiences.

And yes, Gaskell got mixed reviews. She knew her work was controversial, but wrote anyway. Her next book, Ruth, was even more daring!

Trudy wrote: "Noirfifre wrote: "I am still on chapter four but I feel that Gaskell is creating a headstrong, defiant, beautiful and independent heroine in Mary. She reminds me a bit of Margaret Hale from North a..."



I am reading from my kindle and I have no footnotes but have the notes in the text explaining certain words of the day.

I've finally finished the first five chapters. It took me a while to get into the book. I also wonder where will life lead Mary to, because she is unusually headstrong for a 19th century working-class girl.

One thing I wanted to ask you is what does it exactly mean to "kill yourself drinking"? Does it mean an alcohol overdose or organ-failure? It was common enough cause of death with 19th century working-class men.