The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

This is to discuss one of Octobers group reads - Kindred by Octavia E. Butler.

I've been meaning to read this for some time. I read Fledgling many years ago and intended to read more of her books but then didn't -mainly due to the fact her books were difficult to find. No excuses now so hopefully will start this shortly.

My wife and I listened to the audio book version of this while on a road trip a couple of years ago. It has to do with time travel, but not the scientific sort. In that regard, it's somewhat like The time Travelers Wife, but it's a completely different situation. It's really quite good.

Here is my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It's so strange how we tie on these monthly selections sometimes. I'm definitely reading Gods Themselves, but thought I would try Kindred also. I picked up Kindred a long time ago, and never got far with it. Maybe this time it will speak to me.

I wanted to buy this yesterday on my Kindle but as I wasn't at home I couldn't get my Kindle to connect. Today I manage to connect and the price has gone up by 2 euros. I really don't know how amazon does its pricing and whether to wait or not. Really annoying.

I liked it. I wrote a sci fi oriented review here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I found it compelling and read it quickly, but if you're not hooked by the first chapter, then maybe it's not for you.

Jo wrote: "I wanted to buy this yesterday on my Kindle but as I wasn't at home I couldn't get my Kindle to connect. Today I manage to connect and the price has gone up by 2 euros. I really don't know how amaz..."

That's really frustrating. I bought my copy on kindle a little while ago and (having just checked) it's the same price now as I paid for it then. Perhaps it was on offer at the time you first looked it up? Have to admit though, I don't like paying almost the same price for a digital copy as for a physical one, but that's usually down to the publishers rather than Amazon.

On another note, I've only just started reading Kindred due to other commitments, so it's a bit early for me to comment. Looks promising so far, though.

I do like time travel books when they are done well. I've read the first few chapters and there's a good chance i'm going to enjoy this one. Has anybody read anything else by Octavia Butler?

I will read the reviews when I finish in case there are any spoilers.

Nearly half way through and i'm sure i've read it before. I don't have a copy so must have been a long time ago. Either that or there is a film of it. Anyway still a good read.

Jo wrote: "I do like time travel books when they are done well. I've read the first few chapters and there's a good chance i'm going to enjoy this one. Has anybody read anything else by Octavia Butler?

I wi..."

I've read her story Bloodchild and have Dawn queued up on my Kindle. I thought Bloodchild very powerful.

Jo wrote: "I do like time travel books when they are done well. I've read the first few chapters and there's a good chance i'm going to enjoy this one. Has anybody read anything else by Octavia Butler?

I wi..."

I really love Octavia Butler. I've read the Lilith's brood trilogy starting with Dawn and I thought it was amazing. I thought it was even better than Kindred. I plan to read everything she wrote.

Jo wrote: "I do like time travel books when they are done well. I've read the first few chapters and there's a good chance i'm going to enjoy this one. Has anybody read anything else by Octavia Butler? "

I read Parable of the Sower about a year ago. Not great, but not bad. Good enough that I've got its sequel, Parable of the Talents on my list of books to read.

I'm at 2/3, and unless it changes a lot in the last part I can say it's a book about slavery, not about time travelling, right? (didn't read any review yet). I would never have picked it up if it wasn't chosen here. So that's a good thing for me, to read something different now and then. The perspective of a time traveller is a good one to show us what happened from an insider's view. Of course we know, but this makes it very convincing. It's a well written book that makes me thankfull not to have lived in that time.

Leo wrote: "I'm at 2/3, and unless it changes a lot in the last part I can say it's a book about slavery, not about time travelling, right? (didn't read any review yet). I would never have picked it up if it w..."

I'd say it's more about slavery than time traveling, but it is partly about time travel.

The more I think about it, the more time travel is kind of a weird thing to get lumped into the Sci Fi genre. It fits on a technical standpoint, but the stories can be more about the setting and less about the time travel itself.

Another subgenre that gets lumped in: alternate history. I'm not even sure why that's Science Fiction, but that's where they put it in the bookstore.

I read Parable of the Talents ( I didn't know it was part 2 of a series). I thought it was all right, with some interesting plot elements and, if I remember correctly, quite dark at times.

Phil wrote: "Leo wrote: "I'm at 2/3, and unless it changes a lot in the last part I can say it's a book about slavery, not about time travelling, right? (didn't read any review yet). I would never have picked i..."

I agree it's more about slavery but using time travel to give a better perspective to the story. In the appendix at the end of my book it mentions that Butler did not intend this book to be considered as sci-fi. Either way it's a well-written and fascinating book. She is particularly good with her characterisation so that there are multiple facets to all the characters rather than it being simply everybody being good or bad.

Another interesting point I've read is that Butler had originally conceived her main time travelling character as a male, but changed the gender to female when she realized a male would be further persecuted and probably wouldn't survive.

I also think we've picked an appropriate time to be reading Kindred, given author Lionel Shriver's comments on identity politics in fiction (and the response from other authors that has ensued):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis...

Butler was a black American woman writing about black American history. It shaped her as a writer. But what if Butler had been white? Could she have written Kindred in the way she did? What does anyone else here think?

Donna Rae wrote: "...But what if Butler had been white? Could she have written Kindred in the way she did? What does anyone else here think?"

These are great questions and I wish I could discuss them. As usual we are racing to the end of the month and I haven't read either selection yet. But the books are on my shelf...

Donna Rae wrote: "But what if Butler had been white? Could she have written Kindred in the way she did? ..."
Of course culture, background, gender etc. can have influence on the subjects you're interested in and feel committed to. But pure technically I don't see how coulour influences writing style or quality. Remember we discussed here James Tiptree jr. - in her time nobody could tell by the writing that it was not James but Alice.

Finished today. What a sad, beautiful story.

Leo wrote: "Remember we discussed here James Tiptree jr. - in her time nobody could tell by the writing that it was not James but Alice."

That's an excellent point, Leo, and it backs up the argument Shriver was making: fiction is, by definition, 'fake', so what is the point of fictional characters if they do not allow us to explore or experience the world through someone else's eyes, albeit from an entirely different culture, ethnicity, gender, etc.? The question arises from a sense of authenticity in this current age of 'identity politics and cultural appropriation' - this is what Shriver was hitting back at. In Tiptree's time, it was difficult for a female writer to break into a male-dominated sci-fi market, so her answer was to pose as a male author (thereby proving a point). In today's climate, however, (I'll use one of Shriver's examples), Chris Cleave writes as a 14yr old Nigerian girl refugee in Little Bee and is lambasted for it, not so much for the quality of the novel, but because he is not himself a)Nigerian b)female c) a refugee i.e. 'it is not his story to tell' (sic.).

Personally, I think that's rubbish. I think Shriver is right - authors should be positively encouraged to take on any character that enables we readers to encounter perceptions other than our own, even if they run contrarily. But then, I read Kindred.

Butler writes with such an 'authentic' voice, and I can't help feeling that, if she had been anything other than a black American woman, the complex relationship between Dana and Rufus wouldn't have been as multi-faceted as it is.

Hmmm.

I know it's not science fiction, but I think I'll have a read of Little Bee and put together some comparisons - see what comes up.

Kindred is an excellent book but I can't help but believe her background hasn't influenced it. When you read about her life, she grew up witnessing racial segregation and seeing the impacts. This surely has been incorporated into the book. It''s certainly a powerful book.

I wonder if you need to be a better author to write about a subject you know nothing about and bring it to life? I can see no reason why you can't write about anything, but it's making it believable that is more difficult.

My copy of the book has a 'Reader's Guide' attached. There I read that mrs. Butler did a lot of study for this book. So it's not only her being a black american woman that made it possible to write this impressive story. Also interesting to read is how she pioneered as the only black female sf writer: she didn't care at all, just did what she liked most: reading and later on writing science fiction.
Still, I'm curious for Little Bee!

If anybody has the kindle app Bloodchild by Octavia Butler is free to download - it's a short story 31 pages.

Jo wrote: "If anybody has the kindle app Bloodchild by Octavia Butler is free to download - it's a short story 31 pages."

Bloodchild was the first thing I read by Octavia Butler - it's beautifully written.

Jo wrote: "If anybody has the kindle app Bloodchild by Octavia Butler is free to download - it's a short story 31 pages."

Amazon sez: This title is not currently available for purchase

Really that's strange I downloaded it from amazon.com today. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00HP4...

Maybe it's a regional thing?

4 stars. My review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Donna Rae wrote: "...what if Butler had been white? Could she have written Kindred in the way she did?"

It's a great question. I talked about it in my review. As far as "cultural appropriation" goes, I hope it is a passing fad. Instead of "cultural appropriation" (what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours), I'm a proponent of cultural cross-pollination: what's mine is also yours. We share human history, art, psychology, and culture. And many more things I haven't named.

"Cultural appropriation" becomes an issue for oppressed groups when they feel the majority of society have placed a false and racist identity on them. They want to take that identity back and replace it with one worthy of respect. I get it. Part of the process is clearing out the old stereotypes to create a more valid identity. During this time certain groups may say to the wider society: hands off, it's ours. As long as this phase is temporary, it's understandable.

I read the graphic novel adaptation Kindred: A Graphic Novel Adaptation by Damian Duffy. It don't feel like I lost anything by not reading the original novel.

Butler writes very well, and I want to read more of her novels, but the graphic version of this novel was good enough that I don't need to re-read it in the original form and I will focus on her other novels.

I am reading right now. What a great story! I am curious to know how Rufus will grow up.

I finished it. Great book, great story, but sad ending, although it was the beginning too. I guess that this book could be labeled as horror too. Almost everyone who lives today if launched in the past would be at risk, no matter what place or age. Almost everyone.