Jane Austen discussion

Please discuss.

This section begins with the famous walk that the Uppercross party take across the countryside. This section includes the incident at Lyme. Wentworth escorts Henrietta and Anne back to Uppercross. Ends with Anne going back to Kellynch estate -- to stay for a short period with Lady Russell at Kellynch Lodge, before they both go to Bath.

And thus began Captain Wentworth's slow torture of Anne Elliot. Oh, this was painful. To watch Anne as she observed Wentworth's cool reception of her, of her hearing of his slighting her appearance to her relations, and watching him ignore her in order to flirt with the younger flighty Musgrove ladies was just too much. Then to have her own sister accuse her of not having a mother's heart... I truly despised Mary at that point. No one, no one knew what was in that heart of Anne's and no one was willing to look closely enough to see that she was wounded and bleeding internally.

J. W. wrote: "And thus began Captain Wentworth's slow torture of Anne Elliot. Oh, this was painful. To watch Anne as she observed Wentworth's cool reception of her, of her hearing of his slighting her appearance..."

Agreed! Anne's life at this point is so painful to read.

I also despise Mary. For me she is one of the worst people in the whole canon of Austen's work. One can get along with Mrs. Bennet (hopeless drama queen), Lady Catherine (controlling b---h), Miss Bates (so lonely), Marianne (desperately young), etc but Mary is always complaining about everything and you just want to reach out and smack her or stuff her in a closet.

Persuasion is my favorite book. Anne has such strength and fortitude. She has earned her HEA although it is emotionally wrenching for her and her readers to get there.

Mary E. Musgrove should be glad she never had a face to face with you two, J.W. and Megan! Mary's behavior and the other elements of this part of the story really are a basket of emotion for many of readers. I just remember the first time reading it and feeling, like others have said, that I felt how badly Anne needed a friend to tell this pain to. Beautiful. It is similar to Elinor Dashwood's (Sense & Sensi) situation, but at least finally she and Marianne come to an understanding of what has played out for the both of them.

Mary Musgrove has truly made narcissism a way of life -- feasting on it at all times.

J.W., this is also an optimistic part of the story, where breakthroughs begin to happen. Anne gets to see another way of living and takes pleasure in it -- the Harville/Benwick family. She is away from her gruesome father and older sis (and even away from the Musgrove households as some of you have stated). Any change of scenery is really a plus for Anne. I think her "regaining her color" at Lyme may be symbolic of Anne expanding, in spite of the heartbreak still there. Also her literary conversations with Benwick. We are really seeing Anne at her best -- the real Anne. And even toward the last of this section, we see the Crofts -- who I will say I am absolutely in love with -- and their honest personalities and growing warmth toward Anne in friendship -- also a relationship built on Anne as a person -- they don't give a flip of her baronet family.

I think it is this beautiful mix of emotional pain, growth, harsh characters, (mystique -- who is that man who keeps passing Ann on the stairs -- Cousin William, you say), lovely warm characters -- that show the genius of Jane Austen. It is this ability to create these groupings in the story that elevate her far above the light novel or the romantic novel. This is a story of a lot of things taking place, not only a rekindled relationship.

And the mixed cast and several happenings at once also reminds me of Emma -- only this is taken outside the one village setting and has several settings -- so place is a more indepth factor in this story. The home Anne leaves, the visits with family (Uppercross), then a dynamic new place (Lyme), and Bath (old memories and her old sense of self that she comes to terms with and finally comes into her own story [without giving away a spoiler to the next sections of reading here.] And these things and places happen aside from Wentworth, so it is not just about the romance.

I love the Lyme section the best and the Crofts are my favorite Austen couple. Sophy Croft is my hero.

Comments from previous discussion

One of my favorite scenes is in Ch. 9 when Wentworth takes little Walter off Anne's neck. He touched her! She's physically attracted to him and reels from the shock. He touched her again in Ch. 10. Her feelings go against everything she wants to believe about herself and what she's been taught. This is sexual attraction, Jane Austen approved, at least that's what I have underlined from a class many years ago.

I love when Frederick helps Anne into the Crofts' carriage. Coming so soon after his condemnation of her but yet he's so kind and thoughtful. It shows a different side of him. He would like to think she refused Charles because she was still in love with him (Fred.) but his wounded pride wants to think she was too snobby to marry a squire's son.

Ch. 13 begins with Anne's sense of worth: she only values herself as she is of use to others. She is learning, but not there yet, to value herself for herself. She is experiencing a "second spring of youth and beauty," thanks to the fresh air, exercise and good company in Lyme. It's significant that her looks improve as she begins to know herself.

It is significant Anne notes that Kellynch-hall had passed into better hands. This is a radical statement, according to the editor, and shows that Jane Austen was thinking about social issues. Julia Prewitt Brown argues "Persuasion registers a fundamental ... crisis of belief in the legitimacy of social structures.... Established power is sustained only through a subjective belief in its legitimacy, through people believing its legitimacy and allowing themselves to be dominated. ... In Persuasion we see the beginning of a failure to support traditions, a failure that led to 19th century reforms."

The Crofts value Anne. Mrs. Croft is smart enough to know Anne would be an excellent wife for her baby brother.

It is significant the Crofts keep their umbrellas by the door instead of in the butler's room. Sir Walter likes to be waited on. A servant would have to fetch the umbrellas from the butler's room. The Crofts are more practical.

I love this comment. It is so very funny: " have done very little besides sending away some of the large looking-glasses from my dressing-room, which was your father's. A very good man, and very much the gentleman I am sure; but I should think, Miss Elliot" (looking with serious reflection), "I should think he must be rather a dressy man for his time of life. Such a number of looking-glasses! oh Lord! there was no getting away from oneself. So I got Sophy to lend me a hand, and we soon shifted their quarters; and now I am quite snug, with my little shaving glass in one corner, and another great thing that I never go near."

Sir Walter is so vain he must have so many mirrors in his house in order to admire his own good looks. The contrast between Sir Walter and Admiral Croft is brilliant. Anne prefers Admiral Croft and his less fussy style to her own family.

Chapter 12 ends Vol. I. I don't know how anyone could put the book down after this section.

Anne blossoms in Lyme. The academics in the annotated version I read say Anne finally has a chance to be free and be herself away from the restricted, formal, stuffy atmosphere of her family home. I think I agree. The more she socializes with other young people, the more she comes into her own. The bloom is back and a ha other men begin to notice! Capt. Wentworth notices too and he doesn't like that other men are noticing Anne!

Here among his peers we see Wentworth at his best. He's such a loyal friend that he risked his career to go to the side of Capt. Benwick and give his friend bad news. Personally I think Harville was a bit of a coward but since it was his sister and he was probably grieving too, I'll let it go. I like meeting Wentworth's friends and seeing him with them. They would have helped Anne had she married Frederick and struggled. They're so open and warmhearted, much different from Anne's family.

Did anyone else pick up on Anne's reaction to the Harville's cottage? For the first time she sees what her life would have been like and t first she's taken aback by how small the place is. Then she notices how cleverly the sailors, who are used to living in small spaces, have contrived to fix the place up to make use of every available inch of space.

This section is wonderful. I do question Anne's belief that she could have enjoyed living in a cozy cottage like the Harvilles. Maybe now she could but not at 19. The Harvilles are a very nice family and you notice their children seem to be better behaved than Mary's. They stay with the maid the whole time and don't bother the adults.

There's nothing like another man's interest in a woman to arouse a man's jealousy. For that I can forgive Miss Austen for including a rival for Anne's affections.

Louisa is young but she's also headstrong. She wanted to go to Lyme and she whined about it until she got to go. She's been indulged in everything her whole life and jumping off Granny's Teeth is just another instance of her being spoiled. In her favor, she's too young to really think about consequences. At that age one tends to think one knows it all and nothing will ever happen to them.

She doesn't yet know the difference between headstrong and knowing your own mind. I think Wentworth is not attracted to her. He flirts with her precisely because she is not like Anne. He's punishing Anne and himself for loving someone so persuadable. As to his feelings after thee pivotal action- hold that thought! At first he's too much in shock and fear to realize anything. He does understand that Anne keeps a cool head in a crisis. More than he does which is unrealistic or else he wouldn't be a Captain. If he lost his head, he'd be dead or those under him would be dead.

The academics point of the presence of the fishermen come to gawk at the "dead girl - nay two dead girls." This is the first time Austen has introduced working class people and entered into their heads.

The back of my paperback book says when Tennyson visited Lyme he said (view spoiler) I feel the same way. I'm dying to go to Lyme and see the famous Cobb. I'm aiming for 2018 the bicentennial of Persuasion.

Now that we're discussing this section, I realize how packed it is with plot and character development. You're right, Sarah, much more than the romance is here for the reader to enjoy but the emotions of the romantic storyline here are so effective! The conversation between Wentworth and Louisa about the nut will always stick in my mind because of the subtext for Anne as she overhears it.

I love the Crofts too! They are one of the few successful married couples we see in Austen (though we assume all the lead couples will be just as happy after they are married).

I also think Austen accomplishes a masterstroke with "Louisa's Great Fall"-- talk about a dramatic piece of plotting that achieves thematic and narrative progress! The aftermath of that one event is important in its ripple effects, as we'll see later.

Sigh...I love this novel!

Agree with all the above. The Crofts are the best - intelligent, kind, loving. Wentworth with his friends is fun because it shows him in a relaxed setting without all the social pretenses. Louisa is another Lydia - self involved and oblivious to others feelings.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I love the Lyme section the best and the Crofts are my favorite Austen couple. Sophy Croft is my hero.

Comments from previous discussion

One of my favorite scenes is in Ch. 9 when Wentworth takes..."


I recently discovered a website called www.lymaze.com. It's unfinished, but it let you travel around modern day Lyme Regis by making choices on succeeding pages that lead you to history pages on Lyme and Southern England. Like a Choose Your Own Adventure novel, but with maps and art.