Jane Austen discussion

Another delicious set of Persuasion chapters. After weeks attending Louisa's recovery in Lyme, the Musgroves return to Uppercross to be home for their school children's arrival for the holiday season. Mary informs Anne and Lady Russell that she managed to enjoy Lyme -- (I know some of you readers will be glad to know). Anne and Lady Russell go to Bath, which Anne sees as a gloomy future. William Elliot has already arrived in Bath and has been calling upon Walter and Elizabeth. Anne re-acquaints herself with an old school friend Mrs. Smith. Cousins of true nobility also arrive: Lady Dalrymple and Miss Carteret. As this section closes, the Crofts arrive in Bath also, we learn that Captain Wentworth has been in Plymouth and Shropshire for several months, and there is a new marriage engagement announced.

Ah Lady Dalrymple. I always enjoy reading about Sir Walter getting all flustered about being recognized by her. Those actions always capture his personality in a nutshell.

I love Admiral Croft's character. He is funny without meaning to be- like how he speculates that Frederick must not be very much affected by Louisa's engagement because there is "not an oath or a murmur from beginning to end" in his letter and about Sir Walter's many mirrors " I should think he must be rather a dressy man for his time of life. Such a number of looking-glasses! oh Lord! there was no getting away from one's self."

Both of the Crofts are just adorable! And they’re written with such affection that we want to hug them while we laugh—not the sort of mockery that makes the reader stand back and point.

Abigail wrote: "Both of the Crofts are just adorable! And they’re written with such affection that we want to hug them while we laugh—not the sort of mockery that makes the reader stand back and point."

yes indeed! there can be no two pairs in more contrast than the Crofts and Walter and Elizabeth Elliot.

I've been thinking about the importance of the character of Mrs. Hamilton Smith in this story. It always sticks in my mind of the pretentious "speech" Walter gives when he hears that Anne intends to visit Mrs. Smith rather than Dalrymple on the certain night. Of course, he is at the height of self-absorption now. Sad the person who can't even stop to think of his own child's life and interests at any time apparently. Austen created an unmatched character in Walter I think.

I think it is in Shapard's annotated Persuasion that the point is made that Walter grandly denounces Mrs. Smith, while he should have remembered she is likely to have been from a family of some social consequence to have been a fellow student with Anne. However, his acceptance of Mrs. Clay, who would be of lower ranking in his all-important world of rank, leaves us thinking. When lower classes are useful or flattering, the Sir Walter type decides who to choose or exclude. Much the same as we were discussing in our Useful Woman discussion.

I think Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay use each other. He has someone who endorses his high opinion of himself and she is using him for social climbing.

In the 2007 movie version, Sir Walter yells at Anne... and in the presence of a servant(s) I might add. That would insure his ire was made known below stairs. He certainly would not want to be known to not have influence over his younger daughter. That would not do. So, he rants and raves over connections of relations of Ireland and England and demands she attend them.

Notice that he had not even told her in advance so she could let him know she was engaged for the evening. He just yelled for her to attend them. Poor Anne.
It was no different than when Elizabeth told her no one would want her in Bath and she was to attend Mary. This need to know business seemed to be a pattern with them. It didn't give Anne a chance to have her own way or an opinion of her on.

Yes, Megan. These parts of Austen -- to me the example that counters anyone thinking that Austen is "light romance" or some such label. Austen understood the manipulations and the dark side of humans, or our struggles and lack of self-actualization. And, with characters like Walter and Mrs. Clay, we don't feel they will ever rise above being as they are in this story. This "social system" and the part of these women played must have made an impression on Jane Austen in life. Lady Susan, Lucy Steele, maybe Mary Crawford. Such well crafted characters.

Yes, J.W., Walter saw very little past his own nose, and he did exhibit the need for control of others. Very extreme. Poor Lady Elliot when she was still alive! I can only imagine her life with that as a partner.

Mary amuses me. She's busy in Lyme and has no time for her nerves. I love/hate Mary. She's so awful to her sister and while Charles is a nice guy, he's teasing his wife. He finds it amusing that Benwick doesn't pay any attention to Mary but is more interested in Anne instead. Lady Russell's reaction is curious. 8 years ago she was dead set against Anne's interest in Frederick but now she's OK with Capt. Bennwick's possible interest in Anne without knowing anything about him.


About Bath, in case you haven't been there. A map of Georgian Bath I purchased shows Camden Place way on top of a hill up from the Abbey at no. 10 on the map http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/... 1995 movie places the Elliots closer to the city center. You can stay there. I wish I could afford it.

Camden Place is on the southeastern slope of Beacon Hill in the northern part of Bath. "While Austen does not reveal Sir Walter's precise address, but it is most certainly number 16, directly under the central pediment bearing Lord Camden's coat of arms." (Robert Morrison, editor) Looks can be decieving though because Camden Place was never finished due to landslides. Patricia Bruckman claims Camden Place does not relfect Sir Walter's superiority. The instability of the site, the pretentiousness of the buildings and their flawed, incomplete architecture locate him in a crumbling and isolated relic of the aristocracy. His house is located on sand which confirms his folly and his decline as a feudal patriarch. He is a failed landlord and failing to respond to change.

Laura Place is the most prestigious of all the locations mentioned in Bath. On the map it is no. 20. Lady Russell lodges at Rivers Street no. 29 on the map. Lansdowne Crescent is at no. 18 on the map. Marlborough Buildings is adjacent to the Royal Crescent at no. 22 on the map.

The viscountess is an Irish peer which signified she was on the fringes of acceptability.

Anne hates the pretentiousness of her father and sister. She's embarrassed by them. I can see why she dislikes Bath. Today it's a beautiful, amazing little city but I can imagine the white stone buildings were smoky gray and the streets very dirty. The whole place sounds dingy and a bit on the seedy side from Anne's point-of-view. It was no longer the fashionable watering hole it once was.

What make you of Mr. Elliot?

Some notations in case you don't know:
The Hot Bath and Cross Bath (still in operation) located in the southwestern part of town are near Mrs. Smith's lodgings. Westgate buildings (now family-oriented shops and restaurants) was immediately to the west - far down the hill from Camden Place and much lower down the social scale. It was several blocks from the fashionable center of the town and in close proximity to some of Bath's shady areas.

The baths provided little accommodation for undressing and dressing, individuals had to leave nearby. From her lodgings, Mrs. Smith is conveyed by an invalid chair. It looks like an upright coffin on wheels with a bump in front to accommodate arthritic knees. Unfortunately the Royal Mineral Water Hospital would not let me take a picture of the one on exhibit.

Lady Russell is willing to escort Anne to Westgate Buildings "reveals the central paradox of her character. Her deference to rank makes her imperceptive and unhelpful on several occasions, yet she enters into Anne's sentiments concerning the poverty and isolation of Mrs. Smith." (Robert Morrison, 205).

I think Lady Russell approves of charity. The editor goes on to say that "as a man of wealth and property, Sir Walter is supposed to take a paternalistic interest in disadvantaged and impoverished people such as Mrs. Smith, His scornful response to her plight illuminates how out of touch he is with his social duties, and why Anne's generosity and concern make her both a more fitting representative of the landed gentry and a woman who identifies strongly with the self-reliance, courage and sense of duty that she sees exemplified in the men and women of the navy."

I'm not sure I agree with the last statement. The editor discusses how scholars speculate that Austen was turning towards Evangelism later in life and I think Lady Russell shows that sense of Christian charity, whereas Anne is doing the right thing by someone who was kind to her when she needed a friend. She's returning the favor.

I like how Anne is becoming firm in her convictions. Not only is she going to visit her friend, she declares that she and Mr. Elliot should not suit. She knows they're not the right match, not even if she weren't still in love with Wentworth. Though her vanity is flattered by his attentions, she just doesn't fully trust him enough to open her heart.

Sir Walter's behavior with Lady Dalrymple is the worst sort of toad eating and exactly what Jane deplored about Bath. They say she hated living there and that's one of the reasons why. So many people were superficial and shallow like the Elliots. Elizabeth is downright RUDE in her feelings about the Crofts (for now). She's almost worse than her father.

In this section, we meet Mr Elliott more frequently and more intimately. There seems to be something in the air in this novel that he is not quite the nice man he pretends to be. Is that justified?

Everyone except Anne seem to think the world of him. He seems to favor Anne. Now Anne is justified in rejecting him just because she simply is not interested or is not attracted to him, but does she have additional reasons to be careful about a relationship with Mr Elliott.

Mr Elliott's manners are impeccable. He knows what to say in every instance. In fact he could be taken as equal to Mrs Clay in brown nosing. His status in society helps him here. However, flattering the upper class seems quite acceptable no matter what the motive.

Anne is not able to throw off suspicion about his past and whether he truly has repented of his past ways. He is not open; he shows no emotional outburst at either the good or the bad. I suspect Anne is good at reading people, but are there actions or anything we should have picked up on our own?

Comparisons: Jane Austen is a master at weaving in comparisons in her novel.

The Dowager Viscountess Dalrymple and the Honorable Miss Carteret do not seem to have much function in the story except as a backdrop against Mr William Elliott and his attempt to get back in the good graces with the Kellynch family. Sir Walter and Elizabeth appear more ridiculous in their attempts, but that maybe because we get more details.

Mrs Clay and Mrs Smith offers a nice contrast to each other. The two are basically both quite destitute and have to depend on their personal skills to make a life for themselves. As expected, Anne has a closer relationship with Mrs Smith. They have a shared past when they were friends. Mrs Clay is friends with Elizabeth and her father. She and Anne do not seem to have much in common. It is much like Anne and Elizabeth not having much in common outside of being sisters.

Captain Wentworth and Mr Elliott were/are both suitors to Anne. At least Lady Russell thinks of Mr Elliott as a suitor. Because the relationship with Captain Wentworth is in the past, we do not get as much insight into what this relationship was like, but there is quite a bit of conversation and interaction between Anne and Mr Elliott. Yet, Anne do not seem to really get to know him or his character.

Mr. Elliott rubs me the wrong way. His manners are too polished and of course he seems to be coming in between Anne and Wentworth! Unlike a certain person in P&P who exudes charm, Mr. Elliot is a little too... smarmy for Anne's taste. She prefers her men rough and raw around the edges. I think Austen is equating the overpolished manners of Mr. Elliot with the type of superficial society she abhorred.

Do you think that Lady Russell's acceptance of Capt Benwick as a suitor was due to the fact that she had already disclosed that she knew Anne had lived too quietly at home without a healthy circle of young people around? That is very modern and more broadly thinking of Lady Russell. But maybe she is a character has grown some since the previous decisions regarding those of the lower classes.

Also Lady Russell, being more in tune with Anne since Lady Elliot's death than any of the others, may have even remembered her speaking of Mrs. Smith in younger days and realized that she had meant a lot to Anne. Lady Russell likely knows that Anne's family would not provide a carriage to take her to see her friend, so she feels the compassion to do so. Lady Russell may be sort of complex as a person. That adds to the story I think. We only really are told of Lady Russell as she interacts with this family, but her life as her own -- we are left to speculate. And much time having to straighten out these Elliots -- you might have to go back and forth some on your decisions! ha

I find it very hard to forgive Lady Russell. She reminds me of various of my family members, especially my guardian, who (a) was always sure she was right and (b) was always throwing me at any random male who wandered by. It’s frustrating to me how, even though she’s the closest thing Anne has to a mother or even a friend, she doesn’t get Anne at all. If I were Anne, living at Kellynch with nothing more than that to attach to, I would have lost my bloom as well! (Or maybe even slit my wrists.)

I think possibly that Lady Russell could have been pulled into all of this more than she might have liked or been prepared to be. A guardian, after all, may not have been of a mind that they would ever have to take on the role in its entirety. Abigail, I understand your experience and I know of guardian experiences also. She was the friend of Lady Elliot and after the worse happened, she had to try to be guardian to these young girls and actually to goofy Walter Elliot also. Them with their prideful ways. I am just putting myself in her shoes -- she didn't have it easy and she made a mistake -- but not a vicious one. Most of the relationship with Anne takes place off stage, so I dont think I know enough to say about how Anne and Lady Russell really saw each other. Yes, Anne grew into a lovely person in spite of what she had faced.

I think Lady Russell is desperate to see Anne married. Anne is now a spinster and "on the shelf." Sir Walter has spent most of his money so now age and financial circumstances work against Anne. Captain Benwick is probably fairly well off unless he spent all his money on Fanny Harville. He may not be the best catch for the daughter of a baronet but for the spinster daughter of an impoverished baronet, he's a catch.

I love Anne's good intuition about people and how she is strong enough to honor her commitment to her old friend over her family's objections. I also find it interesting that no one is calling Elizabeth a spinster even though she's OLDER than Anne and still not married. I think the engagement between Louisa and Benwick is a nifty little piece of plotting that clears the way for the central romance and providing happiness for a character who has had loss and seems to deserve it.

As the years have gone by and Sir Walter and Elizabeth have become less and less agreeable and Anne's home life has deteriorated horribly because of their indifference and contempt, I think Lady Russell has come to realize that Anne will only have a happy life if she marries and forms her own establishment. Of course she had always wanted that for Anne, but in a less urgent way. Now, with her father facing financial ruin and with the obvious fact of Elizabeth's remaining a charge on him forever (there won't be any marriage and financial relief there!), Lady Russell sees that Anne's life will be a misery unless she does marry a respectable man. I don't think she's desperate, but she's definitely worried about Anne's future. She's sincerely attached to Anne and wants what is best for her. Unfortunately, like many well-meaning parents and guardians, she has been wrong in her thinking and now she's being forced to see that. I don't feel sorry for her at all, but I do understand her!

I think Lady Russel was right. Look at Mrs Price (financially) Even the Harvilles have a hard time (why didn't he srike it rich like Wentworth?)Don't forget Anne wouldn't go out to work like young women today. What would they live on?she was only 19 and LR thought she would have more secure options. As most mothers would think even today.

Mrs wrote: "I think Lady Russel was right. Look at Mrs Price (financially) Even the Harvilles have a hard time (why didn't he srike it rich like Wentworth?)Don't forget Anne wouldn't go out to work like young ..."

Lady Russell's fault was that she didn't advise Anne to wait, but instead wanted her to break off the engagement and all communication. I'm sure that she thought a better offer would come along, and she didn't want Anne stuck in a poor relationship. Understandable, but it's obvious that she didn't understand Anne's heart.

I often think that Austen brings home to us that financial responsibility is necessary for a good home life. It's very easy to say that women today can support themselves, but if we look at all the struggling single mothers around us, we can see that she's still right - without adequate means, it's as tough a world as it ever has been. Maybe modern mothers ought to point that out more often to their daughters...

Karlyne wrote: "I often think that Austen brings home to us that financial responsibility is necessary for a good home life. It's very easy to say that women today can support themselves, but if we look at all the struggling single mothers around us, we can see that she's still right - without adequate means, it's as tough a world as it ever has been. Maybe modern mothers ought to point that out more often to their daughters..."

And yet Jane Austen also brings out that the financial part, while important, is not adequate for a good life or home.

Anne could have had a secure life with Charles Muscgrove, but she turned him down.

The Harvilles are not wealthy, they live in tight quarters, but they seem to be happy and contented.

The late Lady Elliot was well off, but did she have a good life with Sir Walter. She made the best of it.

I think Jane Austen saw the need for both financial security and being well matched.

Brit wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I often think that Austen brings home to us that financial responsibility is necessary for a good home life. It's very easy to say that women today can support themselves, but if we..."

I think it's true that every age has its issues, and ours is probably more skewed toward not paying attention to the financial side of a marriage, while there was a definite tilt toward the other side during this novel. I think Austen is a genius for reminding us that a balanced life tends to be a happier life. I'm reminded of Elizabeth Bennett's wonder at her friend Charlotte's marriage (in Pride & Prejudice) to a man with very little understanding. She had opted for the financial security of marriage without the benefit of a meeting of minds. And, it suited Charlotte (because she knew she could make a good thing of her marriage, and her options were few), although it left Elizabeth in disbelief and, well, horror at her friend's choice.

As usual, Austen makes us look at all sides of the coin!

Lady Russell now there is a character in more ways than one she takes it upon herself to act as lady of the house and resident matchmaker but doesn't take into consideration that the girls and Sir Elliott are the ones that have to live with the decisions whatever happens crazy! I like Admiral Croft he is funny and adds a lighthearted element to the story. Wentworth is really screwing up everything. Then there is Cousin Elliott trying to take over. And poor Anne is stuck in the middle of everything. This is definitely a story that character rich.
I love it!

Gretchen wrote: "Lady Russell now there is a character in more ways than one she takes it upon herself to act as lady of the house and resident matchmaker but doesn't take into consideration that the girls and Sir ..."

I think Lady Russell felt that Sir Walter and Elizabeth were so lacking in understanding that anything she could do was bound to be an improvement! And, of course, we know she was wrong about Anne's romance, but she really did mean well - like a lot of people...

And, I agree. Poor Anne, stuck in the middle, trying to make everybody's life better!

Karlyne wrote: "Gretchen wrote: "Lady Russell now there is a character in more ways than one she takes it upon herself to act as lady of the house and resident matchmaker but doesn't take into consideration that t..."
True Lady Russell did have good intentions and a good heart. But. ..

Gretchen wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Gretchen wrote: "Lady Russell now there is a character in more ways than one she takes it upon herself to act as lady of the house and resident matchmaker but doesn't take into cons..."

And I think she was trying to do what she thought her friend, Anne's mother, would have wanted her to do. I wonder, if Anne's mother had lived, what she would have thought about Wentworth?!

Would the late Lady Elliot have considered her own life lesson regarding marriage and encouraged Anne to realize there is more to life than status and wealth. She made the best of her situation, but I did not get the impression she was truly happy with Sir Walter. Could that have enabled her to see Captain Wentworth's qualities?

What are Wentworths qualities? When Mrs Gardener In P&P comments that many gentlemen fool around with young girls affections Elizabeth answers' that wont do for us.' I see CW as a young man fooling around with Louisas affections (and her sisters)without real serious intentions .very unthinking she could have had a reaction like Marianne (I agree with Elizabeth)As for Lady Russel Maybe she was afraid Anne would arrive at at situation as Mrs Price had? don't forget she had no income nor would she go to earn anything At 19 she could look for someone financially stable. Any mother would have advised so .Love doesn't feed a family.

I wonder, though, if Anne's mother might not have been a bit more understanding because she, hopefully, knew Anne's temperament better than Lady Russell. Instead of repudiating the relationship completely, she could have just advised a bit of caution and a wait-and-see time period. I think Lady Russell was behind the complete break-off, but I like to think that Anne's mother would be more sympathetic. She knew, none better, just how much value to place on position and wealth!

Mrs' comment make me wonder if Anne, at such a young age and bec of her class, was ready at that age to be a poor sea man's wife or even an indigent widow at a young age with a couple of children.

I don't think Anne and CW were thinking of these contingencies at the time when they were so young.


I respect everyone's opinion/discussion, but I have to respectfully wonder if we are not too hard on Lady Russell?

This is of course veering into a different JA book, but in Mansfield Park we have three sisters: the poor Mrs Price, the rich but doped up Mrs Bertram, and the bitter Mrs Norris. What makes for the better life? JA certainly helps us think about this from different angles.

Likewise in Persuasion we get to see different couples. Ideally, you should have love, a compatible partner and money, but which of these are most important?

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Mrs' comment make me wonder if Anne, at such a young age and bec of her class, was ready at that age to be a poor sea man's wife or even an indigent widow at a young age with a couple of children.
..."

I really do think she was acting in what she thought was Anne's best interests. But I think the glaring fault in what she did was that she never sat down with the two of them and attempted to help them figure out just how they could afford to be married. She never appealed to Wentworth's chivalry and didn't ask him what would happen to Anne if, for instance, he were to die and leave her with children and no means of support.

I think Lady Russell made the fatal mistake of wanting "more" for Anne than Anne wanted for herself. She wanted social position and wealth for her and never stopped to think just how much - or little - Anne would require to be happy. To her credit, she didn't want these things for her own sake, but she, unfortunately, didn't understand Anne's temperament.

Brit wrote: "This is of course veering into a different JA book, but in Mansfield Park we have three sisters: the poor Mrs Price, the rich but doped up Mrs Bertram, and the bitter Mrs Norris. What makes for the..."

This reminds me of when Ma asked Laura (Ingalls Wilder) if she was marrying Almanzo because of his horses or because of him. And Laura replied "Both"... Which has always tickled me!

Too often we focus on just one thing, but taking into account compatibility, love, and money will certainly smooth a marriage's path.

I think Lady Elliot would have encouraged Anne to think about her engagement to Wentworth and possibly convinced Sir Walter to agree to a long engagement.

I don't think Wentworth was messing around with Louisa without real intentions. He says in the beginning he has every intention of marrying someone-anyone. He backed off Henrietta when he found out she was engaged to Charles Heyter. Louisa isn't blameless in the relationship. I don't know if she believed Captain Wentworth loved her and would marry her. I don't know if she would have said yes if he had asked. Probably she would have because of his wealth and status.

Wentworth's good qualities are numerous:
He is kind to the Musgroves about their wayward son Dick. He tells them what they want to hear and comforts them.

He is perceptive. He knows what Anne needs. He pulls Mary's boy off Anne's back; he whispers to his sister to invite Anne for a ride in the carriage, then helps Anne into the carriage. He's very gentle with Anne.

He's a kind and loyal friend and by all accounts an excellent Master.

He's a leader. Though he kind of loses his head when Louisa falls, he recognizes her capability and recommends her in a crisis.

He would have married Louisa if he had to. Then he disappears until Louisa becomes engaged to Benwick.

He listens attentively to what Anne has to say.

He writes the most amazing love letter!

At the end, it tells us he helps Mrs. Smith recover her property.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Lady Elliot would have encouraged Anne to think about her engagement to Wentworth and possibly convinced Sir Walter to agree to a long engagement.

I don't think Wentworth was messing aroun..."

Although I don't rate Captain Wentworth very high in the Austen heroes ranking, well said QNPoohBear. I'll add that the best people in the novel, other than Anne, Sophia and Adm Croft clearly love and esteem Captain Wentworth.

However, for me, unforgivable is his "looks" comment about Anne....in the presence of Anne's sister Mary! To be sure, he didn't know Mary the previous time(I think) but he certainly knew the Elliot "character".

I think Captain Wentworth backed off Henrietta because Louisa showed a more decisive character. I doubt that he would have backed off if Henrietta had the more decisive character. Given Louisa age and experience, I don't think any blame can be given to her. Also, I can't like his "every intention of marrying someone-anyone".

I’m with you, Kirk! I hope that if JA had been able to do a thorough revision and expansion of Persuasion, she would have shown us rather than told us about Captain Wentworth’s good qualities. As it is, we see precious little of his sparkling wit, and his principles seem shaky at best. Hardly the spouse I would wish for a pillar of rectitude like Anne!

Karlyne wrote: "Gretchen wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Gretchen wrote: "Lady Russell now there is a character in more ways than one she takes it upon herself to act as lady of the house and resident matchmaker but doesn..."
You know i have wondered the same thing. What would her mother think of Wentworth?

All in all as usual we see JAs wonder full charactization As in real life the people have good and lesser qualities (except Anns family who aren't wicked just selfish)as mentioned Charles is sweet his sisters are ordinary etc Lady Russel wants the best for Ann eeven Mrs Clay is just looking out to suvive and takes her chances.As said Mr Elliot is decent enough not to go after Elizabeth but Ann is preferred (as Henry is perceptive to want Fanny after running away from all the London girls trying to catch him)Mrs smith is also mostly positive but desparate. A true Mirror of Life