Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is the discussion thread for Far from the Madding Crowd by Thomas Hardy, our Old School Classic Group Read for November 2016.

Spoilers allowed here.

Please feel free to discuss anything you wish, relating to the book and let us know what you thought :)

I read this one this summer so I'll be ready to discuss whenever.

Kathy, I see that you rated it 3 stars, which was 1 more than I did. I thought the book was okay, which for me means only a 2 star rating. I think I was bored at times by the writing style and I found the characters extremely annoying, so I didn't enjoy it as much as I'd hoped to. Though I have to admit that it's one of those books that has stayed in my memory and I probably look back at it with fonder thoughts than I had at the time of reading. I still can't stand Bathsheba though!

Bathsheba was pretty unlikeable I agree.

I started re-reading, but was so depressed by George's destruction of the sheep and the shattering of Oak's plans that I had to quit. Okay, it's only a book, and I've read it at least twice before and not been so affected by that, but for some reason this time it started to get really painful to read. Maybe it's the time of year -- it's a book to be read when the weather isn't quite so depressing (we've had a particularly gloomy October here in the Pacific Northwest -- record rainfall for the month, and a record number of days with rain -- 25 days in October. Almost no sun at all. All that is unusual -- yes, it gets grey up here, but not that stultifying constant dark dreary heavy cloud cover and the ground and trees and all constantly sopping wet. Not a good time to read a depressing book!)

I'd almost forgotten those early passages when Gabriel was trying to make it as a shepherd. Yes they were quite bleak and depressing. I continued to feel sorry for him throughout the book and he was by far my favourite character.

Oh I feel the opposite about the weather, I love a depressing book in the dark and gloomy months and I think Hardy is nicely suited to Autumn. (Although strangely we're having a particularly warm and sunny season here in Southern England. The trees have turned a lovely red colour, but there's been little rain and it's bright and sunny almost every day. It's more like mid September than early November, even though our clocks have gone back an hour and it's now dark by 4.30pm.)

Sorry about the gloomy weather, Everyman! Not nice! That's almost always the case this time of year for us in Ireland! Pink, I think that we're getting pretty similar weather
to yours. Almost every day has been sunny with a scattering of rain showers. I'm sure it's warmer in the South of England than it is here though. (The Northwest of Ireland!)

Yet again I can't find the schedule for this book. This hasn't happened to me before. Now it seems to be par for the course! I had a problem in another group. With help it is sorted.
Thank you for your help in advance. :-)

Hilary, we don't follow any reading schedules in this group. I know others do it differently, planning which chapters to read each week etc. but we just have a spoiler and a non-spoiler thread so that people can read and post their thoughts about each book in their own time :)

Thanks Pink. I do remember your saying that before. Blame my poor memory! Oh deary me ...

Don't worry Hilary, feel free to ask any questions, we're here to help :)

I read this earlier this year too, with the Victorians! group. I rather liked it, but disliked Batsheba. I was kind of happy to find a non-traditional female character, but I still couldn't make myself like her. I was rather annoyed with Hardy over that, actually. He didn't have to write her that way. Though I did manage to feel some compassion for her in the later parts of the book. After all, there are male characters there who are much worse than she is.

I found the death of the sheep and various other things in the book to have a touch of black humour. (But I did read it in springtime.) I was also told that this is like... the most cheerful of Hardy's books. So I feel no desire to read any of the others.

Leni wrote: " I was kind of happy to find a non-traditional female character, but I still couldn't make myself like her. I was rather annoyed with Hardy over that, actually. "

That gave me a good chuckle, the idea of being annoyed with an author for not writing the character in a way that you could like her.

Although I admit that I sometimes get annoyed with writers who do mean things to people I like (like being so cruel to Oak about the sheep and killing his dream).

I'm at 65% and I found parts of it tedious, resulting in an average 3 stars.

Luffy, I had some of the same feelings. He writes in such a slow in depth style that it can feel like nothing has really happened. Although his stories have stuck in my mind since then and I'm learning to appreciate his work by reading at a slower pace and knowing what to expect from him now.

I've just stopped reading where Fanny dies. If the last 30% can benefit from that event, then I could see myself rating this 4 stars.

Here's my progress......

I am 6 chapters in now at 20%, a whole host of new characters have just been introduced at Coggan's Malthouse I think its called. I am finding the story line to be a bit jumpy, and almost 1/5 of the book in Bathsheba remains somewhat of a mystery, as all accounts of her have been but rumours so far, although she seems to attract attention everywhere she goes.

I feel Farmer Oak is a rather amiable so far, I like how easily he has adjusted from his somewhat lonesome surroundings in Norcombe Hill to his new employment town of Weatherbury. I felt Thomas Hardy has done a great job describing the landscape and surroundings and somewhat charged atmosphere at Mr Oak's Norcombe farm. Although I remain a little unclear as to how all his sheep have been killed? Did they all fall off from a hill? - perhaps someone can explain.

Mr Oak's calculated style is a nice trait, he displays this often, not only taking care with his sheep but also delicately calculating time with the use of the constellations. I like how he continues on this trait asking about Bathsheba's past and her family as a pursues his enquiry.

I am now looking forward to seeing more of the Bathesheba character directly..

Saad, you are correct about how the sheep died. The young dog was too inexperienced to understand that he couldn't run the sheep so fast, nipping at their heels. They ran fast enough to break through a fence and fall off a steep cliff.

Laurie wrote: "Saad, you are correct about how the sheep died. The young dog was too inexperienced to understand that he couldn't run the sheep so fast, nipping at their heels. They ran fast enough to break throu..."

ahh tragic, then Thomas compares the dog to Farmer Oak (too good when he looks for work) makes sense now, thanks.

I got bogged down in the descriptions of the dogs that I missed the younger one running after them. Thomas must also not be a fan of the techniques used in farming. I have no experience in farming but I did find it strange, as if you nurse an ewe surely Gabriel Oak is exercising care, but as soon as you have a flock, you need dogs to whom you delegate your responsibility and shoot them when they are too good.. sigh, can only laugh at the irony somedays in disapproval.

Anyway thanks Laurie.

Pink wrote: "Luffy, I had some of the same feelings. He writes in such a slow in depth style that it can feel like nothing has really happened. Although his stories have stuck in my mind since then and I'm lear..."

I love the slow writing because, after all, that's the way lives were lived then. Life was lived at the pace of walking or, if you were wealthy enough, horse carriage (but for most of Hardy's main characters, horses were for work and not pleasure), and of course it was all hand labor. I find that Hardy's style is an important part of making me feel in the moment with his characters (contrasting with most modern novels which tend to be fast paced to match the fast pace of modern life).

Saad wrote: " if you nurse an ewe surely you bring one up with care, but as soon as you have a flock, you need dogs,."

Dogs, mostly border collies, are by far the best way of controlling flocks of sheep. They are quite amazing at it. They are still used today, and there are many contests, known as trials, where sheep dogs get to show off their skill.

Here's a nice video on how dogs work sheep even today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCZWR...

I also enjoyed the slow writing. This was mostly a three star book for me partially because I was enjoying it but I wasn't totally sucked in. Until the end. I did not see the whole Boldwood murdering Troy thing coming. I could see where his emotions were so turbulent that he just kind of had a bit of temporary insanity. I felt bad for him throughout the book. That stupid valentine!!! She should have sent it to Teddy.

I absolutely loved Gabriel's character. He was such a solid and honest man. He was very steady and trustworthy. I just loved him. Boldwood was a bit overwhelming in his desperation. I think it goes without saying that I disliked Troy.

I think up until Troy was back in town I would have given this three stars. The events that happened at the end impressed me because I felt the story was both dramatic and realistic. It was also like nothing I've read before.

Everyman wrote: "Saad wrote: " if you nurse an ewe surely you bring one up with care, but as soon as you have a flock, you need dogs,."

Dogs, mostly border collies, are by far the best way of controlling flocks of..."

Thanks for this insight, I have no experience in farming and not to offend any on here but I found it amusing at the farmer whistling like a dog.


I do have a question, do untrained dogs naturally run after sheep?

If the answer is negative as I assume, then surely there are defficiencies in the training methods or the trainer, rather than the dog who is compromising away from his natural condition to accomodate the man made labour imposed on him, is that surely not the case?

If my presumption is true, then using the farmer mentality, Thomas has introduced I to and using their established proccess, then by all reasoning Gabriel Oak needs to be shot i.e removed as a shepard or research his errors in methods used to train the dog.

If I wanted to achieve 100% perservation of dogs, I would tell my fictional young, apprentice Billy "go hav me fetch Polly, take the stick mindful of any wild dogs, be sur to pray to thee Lord he'll protect yee step instead of yee giving anything a wack and falling over Bill." I would not have to even pay Bill, lad's a gem, simply appreciates the nice surroundings, as he walks, breathes the fresh air and chuckles at any payment.

Leni, you'll find lots of non-traditional female characters in Hardy's books if you aren't discouraged by this one. Though, now I think of it, I also found them all unlikeable.

Everyman wrote: "Pink wrote: "Luffy, I had some of the same feelings. He writes in such a slow in depth style that it can feel like nothing has really happened. Although his stories have stuck in my mind since then..."

I completely agree with you, although I do find something about his writing needs an extra slow down of pace for me. I really need to try another of his books sometime soon.

Everyman wrote: "Saad wrote: " if you nurse an ewe surely you bring one up with care, but as soon as you have a flock, you need dogs,."

Dogs, mostly border collies, are by far the best way of controlling flocks of..."

Very interesting video showing sheep being herded in a small pasture. My husband and I watched a demonstration years ago at the state fair here in Texas of sheep herding. It was much like this video except it was done in a large barn-like enclosure. The control that the farmer has over the dogs with the whistle is amazing. I can only imagine how much time it would take to train a dog well. Poor Gabriel Oak didn't have time to finish training his young dog before the tragedy of losing all of sheep occurred.

Saad wrote: "I do have a question, do untrained dogs naturally run after sheep?."

Unfortunately, yes.

We have a number of flocks of sheep on our island (one gets a nice tax break using land for agricultural uses, and sheep are one of the easiest animals to raise and much less work than crops), but when dog owners let their dogs run loose they too often get among the sheep and start killing them. It's bad enough that the state has a program where it reimburses owners for the sheep killed by dogs, though I think the sheep owners don't think the rate of payment is enough.

But the bottom line is, yes, dogs, especially when they get together with other dogs, do chase and, when untrained, kill sheep.

Nente wrote: "Leni, you'll find lots of non-traditional female characters in Hardy's books if you aren't discouraged by this one. Though, now I think of it, I also found them all unlikeable."

Many of them are unlikable, I agree. But Mrs Henchard, in The Mayor of Casterbridge, I do admire. Also Mrs. Yeobright in The Return of the Native.

There's a book I've been wanting to read for some time:

Everyman wrote: "Saad wrote: "I do have a question, do untrained dogs naturally run after sheep?."

Unfortunately, yes.

We have a number of flocks of sheep on our island (one gets a nice tax break using land for a..."

I am so accustomed to seeing domesticated dogs being kept as pets, some barking on the pavement from their lead, or trained ones for policing purposes using their sense of smell etc that I never realised they belong to the family of wolves.

I now understand the saying "wolves in sheep clothing" more clearly. If they are carnivores by design then i guess we humans have no option but to lock them up and restrain them and find another purpose for them, given our own supremacy. Yet we are taught humans also have canine teeth, and some humans for the love of meat hunt whilst others don't, so i still believe in the peaceful order of things these wild dogs could survive without their hunt - even if it defies every video ever made on the subject.

I am starting to learn about herding, sheeps, ewes, dogs, farming techniques, etc all of which is new, so I am beginning to see the positives of reading books so far adrift from my way of life and learning to appreciate subtle things in a story away from the main characters that I can learn from - no longer does the detailed descriptions of George and his fur annoy any longer.

I've completed the book! Feels great! I didn't know I had sufficient reserves to both finish reading, and enjoy, a classic. For classics, their pacing is a turnoff. Sometimes the characters' reaction to a quandary seems illogical. I've overcome all that to enjoy this book. I rated it 4 stars.

Luffy wrote: "I've completed the book! Feels great! I didn't know I had sufficient reserves to both finish reading, and enjoy, a classic. For classics, their pacing is a turnoff. Sometimes the characters' reacti..."

Well done! which character in particular? Stick around for the chat, I am at 16percent(chapter 6) but hope to complete more chapters tonight.

I meant characters in classics generally. I had Kristin Lavransdatter in mind.

Woohoo!! Just read my first Group book. Pleased to have had an extra reason to read Hardy. I can see why people have recommended it to me as I like Dickens so much, but I found it a little bit lacking in that regard. Some very well written prose, if a little bloated at times, but Dickens' canvasses are just so much broader.

Anyway, as for the book itself. I found it transporting. Evocative of an age with differing value structures. That structure giving rise to the internal drama that Bathsheba must face following what today would be such a triviality. A 19th century love quadrangle? At first I found Bathsheba's ultimate turn to Gabriel a bit of an overly quick transformation given the despair and trauma of her recent years. However, considering further, Hardy had given us advance notice, albeit subtle, of the shift in her regard for him. That said, had it become strong enough to counteract her feelings of culpability for the demise of Troy & Boldwood? On balance, perhaps a touch too soon, but then again, the book was almost at an end. Perhaps they needed the happy endings in those days. Then again, Dickens leaves Great Expectations an unfinished love story in a far more satisfactory manner.

So many great moments to savour though, from Oak losing his flocks, to saving the ricks, to the saddening loss of poor Fanny, to Troy's subterfuge and sleight of hand. Oak's character development, almost imperceptibly chaining with the years, is a delight. The point when his wait for Miss Everdene, almost unbearable to begin with, becomes undoubted, is almost invisible. The destructive force of an unreciprocated love that Boldwood feels is like one of those modern horror films where the scene, though ghastly, is impossible to take ones eyes from. Really, very much to savour. Glad I read it. It has probably sated my thirst for Hardy though. On to the next challenge....

Saad wrote: "I am starting to learn about herding, sheeps, ewes, dogs, farming techniques, etc all of which is new, so I am beginning to see the positives of reading books so far adrift from my way of life and learning to appreciate subtle things in a story away from the main characters that I can learn from - no longer does the detailed descriptions of George and his fur annoy any longer. "

That's one of the things I really like about Hardy. He is writing about a world he knew very well -- he was born there in the region he writes about; indeed, his first published book, Under the Greenwood Tree, is set in Mellstock, which is based on the village of Upper Brockhampton in the parish of Stinsford, where he was born. It's about the Mellstock Choir (Quire), musicians rather than singers, being replaced by an organ; his grandfather and father were musicians in the Stinsford choir, which was also replaced by an organ when Hardy was quite young, but certainly became part of his family traditions. So he is writing almost a historical fiction.

Similarly, he was originally trained as an architect (his family being too poor to send him for any education beyond the village school), and while on a job to restore a church in Cornwall he met the woman who was to become his first wife; his novel A Pair of Blue Eyes is also about a young architect involved in a local church restorations who ...

His training as an architect, by the way, is responsible for the sprinkling of technical architectural and building terms throughout his novel. If you haven't noticed them yet, keep an eye out for them.

Andy wrote: "Perhaps they needed the happy endings in those days. ."

If you read further into Hardy, you will find that in his later books happy endings are seldom his outcome!

Everyman wrote: "Andy wrote: "Perhaps they needed the happy endings in those days. ."

If you read further into Hardy, you will find that in his later books happy endings are seldom his outcome!"

Maybe I will have to return to Dorset then Everyman....any recommendations??

This is the best book I have read in 2016. It crystallises in a beautiful way the basic choice a woman has, when chosing a life companion: Should it be the attractive, charming one, the rich one or the loyal friend.

If you want to prolong the experience, I recommend the movie with Carrie Mulligan. I think the casting is perfect and scenes are gorgeous. Funny that the song in the movie, Let No Man Steal Your Thyme, seems to sum up the story.

I've just finished, and I loved it. Some thoughts:

I concur with Andy that the novel was transporting. Hardy beautifully painted a picture of this pastoral world. He did a wonderful of job of exploring the inner workings of the characters and making most of them quite sympathetic (there is no way I could find Troy sympathetic--the lout).

While I can understand why some found Bathsheba to be grating, she was living in a world that was structured for men and gave her limited options. She did infuriate me at times, but I ultimately found her to be sympathetic.

I thought the development of her relationship with Gabriel was believable and quite nice. He was her rock throughout the novel, and after her experiences matured her a little, she was able to see him for the man he was.

There are so many images that stick out to me... Gabriel and Bathsheba working together to save the ricks during the storm; Boldwood buying dresses for a woman he was sure he was going to marry years in the future; Bathsheba prying the lid off the coffin.

This was my first Hardy book, but it will not be my last.

I really enjoyed this book. I know a lot of people didn't like Bathsheba, but I found her pretty realistic. She was young, made a stupid decision, and more than paid for it. And she actually learned from her mistakes! She was a strong, independent woman in a time where they were either rare or remained hidden.

And I adored Gabriel. He was just such a genuinely good man. And I was pleased with the ending. My (spoiler-free) review is here, if anyone is interested.

Just to inform the group if anyone is reading an ebook copy I have found an alarming discrepancy in the actual body of the text.

Passage in Chapter 9 of Project Gutenberg's copy reads:

" "Cause he gave me the penny!" "What a pucker everything is in!" said Bathsheba, discontentedly when the child had gone. 'Get away, thing! You ought to be married by this time, and not here troubling me!" "Ay, mistress — so I did. "

Same passage on Amazon Kindle ebook reads:

"
"'Cause he gave me the penny!" "What a pucker everything is in!" said Bathsheba, discontentedly when the child had gone. "Get away, Maryann, or go on with your scrubbing, or do something! You ought to be married by this time, and not here troubling me!" "


Project Gutenburg passage did throw me off a little taking away enjoyment of the book, i think I will stick to reading the Amazon eread and not look for alternative formats for laptop use. I wanted to draw attention to this because some people on here did mention to be reading from PC, so always good to check we are all reading the same text, what a bother all these formats are. If ebook tech is to be pushed the text has to remain the same..sigh.

That's a shame there was half a sentence missing, hopefully this didn't happen too much throughout the Gutenberg version, though sometimes it is a problem with eBook formats.

Pink wrote: "That's a shame there was half a sentence missing, hopefully this didn't happen too much throughout the Gutenberg version, though sometimes it is a problem with eBook formats."

Its not a simple case of a sentence that has failed to scan, there has been a deliberate change from calling "thing" or by their proper name "Maryann". THE ONLY person that can make a change so significant is the author. I wish it was a trivial mistake but younger students relying solely on a project they could be reading someone else's interference then the true work... i for one can't trust any such voluntary work harming an original.

breathe... an update:

The Gutenberg copy of: 'Far From Madding Crowd' by Thomas Hardy I was reading was..
Posting Date: December 18, 2011 [EBook #27] Release Date: March, 1992

Gutenberg also provide a second copy, which with perseverance I was able to gather is:
Release Date: February, 1994 [eBook #107]
[Most recently updated: January 21, 2016]

The 1994 release matched the text as my Amazon eread on the chapter 9 passage quoted above, so panic over. According to Wikipedia, a source from Oxford suggests Hardy made several revisions and changes inbetween published editions. However the 1994 release date on Gutenberg has been scanned by unnamed volunteers and the e-text revised by an M.D. (I think adding the much needed paragraphs and line spacing etc).

Another update made UK Time 00:22 on Thursday 17 November 2016:
Not convinced however, Hardy's changes were made 1895 and 1901 according to Wikipedia, so an ebook should be listing what version of the original it is a scan off when the scanned e-text/book is released as a given, surely... essential data missing.

I'd assume that at some point the mistake has come from that chunk of sentence being cut, between the words Maryann and something, with the unfortunate result that it cuts back midway between the word something, leaving it to now read that Maryann was the thing. I guess most people would have to know this was a mistake to notice it.

In the other group we noticed that there's a chapter missing from some versions. I think it wasn't part of the original serialisation but was added (by Hardy) later. It was missing from my printed version, but present in my e-book version. On the other hand, the printed version had illustrations of the tracks that Oak and the other guy follow.

The chapter in question is the one where Todd waits in church for what's her name... the one who later dies. The chapter has the effect of making Todd seem a bit less of a cad, as he is willing to stand by his word to a woman.

Saad, I agree that's a great shame (I read a correct project Gutenberg version, fortunately), but I think you really ought to email their support. Even if there was a misprint in the edition they scanned, surely they may add a square-bracketed comment with the rest of the sentence and explanation.

Leni, that's interesting, I didn't know Hardy made later changes to the original serialisation. I can't remember if I had that chapter or not in the version I read.

Saad, I agree with Nente, perhaps email the support team to let them know of the mistake.

Andy wrote: "Maybe I will have to return to Dorset then Everyman....any recommendations?? ..."

His strongest novels in addition to Far from the Madding Crowd are, IMO, Tess of the d'Urbervilles, Jude the Obscure (powerful but quite depressing), The Mayor of Casterbridge, and The Return of the Native. All those are serious novels. For somewhat lighter works in his Wessex series, try The Woodlanders, Under the Greenwood Tree, and Two on a Tower.

Also, don't overlook his short stories.

Nente wrote: "Saad, I agree that's a great shame (I read a correct project Gutenberg version, fortunately), but I think you really ought to email their support. Even if there was a misprint in the edition they s..."

Thanks for the feedback Nente and Pink, but I think it might be jumping the gun without any concrete evidence - perhaps you guys can assist checking your copies? Before emailing it was important to clarify with other readers wheather their chapter 9 passage read the same and discuss the annoyance. If anyone's book does and they can verify the edition year Thomas Hardy Published, then I can use that data and make a recommendation to Gutenberg: to print which edition of Thomas Hardy's book they have digitised.

I think the best resolution before pointing out any fault, would be to request the volunteers to find out which edition they digitised, then carry a physical check.

However, I am a little behind with my read, so feel free to contact and take the matter forward if you wish.

Hi I just joined this group. I read far from the madding crowd about eight months ago so thought I'd throw in a comment. I actually liked the Bathsheba character- she was a very strong willed woman. Her biggest fault was falling for a bounder. Gabriel was an inspiring character, because he had a huge setback in life but he eventually became successful. I have a son named Gabriel so that pre-disposed me to like him. The pace was plodding at times, but there is lots of beautiful writing.

George wrote: "Hi I just joined this group. I read far from the madding crowd about eight months ago so thought I'd throw in a comment. I actually liked the Bathsheba character- she was a very strong willed woman..."

Happy to see you joining in the discussion. We've discussed the "plodding" pace issue a bit. I happen to like it because it fits with the rural early Victorian setting of the novels where life did move at a slower, more methodical pace. I would have found it incongruous if the pace had been that of modern novels, which have to compete with much faster paced lives and with competition from cell phones, instant messaging, etc.

I like being taken back to earlier times not only by the plot and character but also by slowing down the pace of my reading, and with it my life. I haven't tested this with instrumentation, but I suspect that a half-hour of Hardy brings my blood pressure and heart rate down at least a bit!

Well, at least I can confirm that you're correct in your findings. The PG books are available online as well.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2... shows the truncated sentence, and http://www.gutenberg.org/files/107/10... shows the normal one.
I think Pink is correct here:
"I'd assume that at some point the mistake has come from that chunk of sentence being cut, between the words Maryann and something, with the unfortunate result that it cuts back midway between the word something, leaving it to now read that Maryann was the thing. I guess most people would have to know this was a mistake to notice it."
So it is very improbable that the "thing" thing is by Hardy, and do we really care if it appeared first in a physical copy or a digital one? I think an editor's note would be appropriate in any case. I'll write to support if you like.