Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

As discussed in the topic about The Blade Itself, we're doing fifteen chapters a week for this one. I suggest to use the following template for the discussion, but any other suggestions are very welcome.

Week 1: Chapters 1-15 (The Poison Trade - Fortunes or War)

What happened? What to you think were the most significant moments?

(view spoiler)[Glokta is on a mission to acquire votes for the Inquisiation (or the Inquisition's favourite puppet), but also gets an unexpected visit from Magister Eider, who warns him that a Gurkish fleet is on the way towards Adua. Of course, Sult does not take him seriously and is more concerned with the matter of the succession. Glokta decides to take some initiative and figure out what Bayaz is up to, so he interrogates and pressumably kills Brother Longfoot, who as it turns out was reporting to Kahlul.

Bayaz's party returns from the east and splits up as soon as they have a chance. Jezal makes up with Ardee and practically starts living together with her. He decides he is still determined to give up his army career in order to have a peacful life with her and resolves to marry her (even before being threathened by Glokta to do so). Unfortunately, he then receives a big promotion and the command over an army that is supposed to deal with a commonor's rebellion close to Adua. He instantly forgets the advice Logen gave him (to leave the fighting to other men) and disinterest in politics and agrees to go on the mission, accompanied by Bayaz. Confronted with the huge rebel army, he almost realizes that he knows next to nothing about commanding an army. Luckily, the Tanner seems to be in league with Bayaz and suddenly gives up the revolt without any diplomacy or violence.

Nevertheless, Jezal is welcomed back as a hero in Adua. It seems like someone has spread rumors that embellish the events, just as with their journey to the east. (Looking at you, Bayaz.) The glorious welcome makes him soon forget all of the lessons learned during his journey to the east and return to his previous arrogant self. Right when our new hero is about to be honoured by the Closed Council, however, the king dies.

West and the Northerners have succeeded in driving Bethod back across the river and to Carleon, where he digs in and sets up an a watertight defense. Ninefingers -forgetting he was growing tired of pointless grudges and endless violence- has joined the fight under the Dogman. The Northerners meet with a group from the High Places and cook up a plan to lure Bethod into a trap, using Ninefingers as bait. After the Northmen are in position, the Union prepares army prepares to follow them and trap Bethod's troups between both armies. Unfortunately, right before the army is deployed, Marshal Burr dies. Generals Kroy and Poulder, not wishing to fall out of their stereotypical roles, refuse to move their armies an inch until the new king (whenever there is one) appoints a new Marshall. (hide spoiler)]


Any memorable quotes?

(view spoiler)["No need to be downhearted," offered Brother Longfoot. "Sometimes a difficult journey does not deliver its full benefit until long after one returns. The trials are brief, but the wisdom gained lasts a lifetime!". (hide spoiler)]


Which character did you enjoy most?

(view spoiler)[The Dogman. He was the only one in these fifteen chapters that actually seems to have grown from his previous experiences and from his companions. I like how he blends Threetrees' and Logen's leadership tactics with an unexpected moral compass. I enjoy the fact that he seems to think a bit deeper about the consequences of his actions. (hide spoiler)]


What would your rating be if you had to rate the book right now?

2/5 - I'm not really enjoying it up until now.

(view spoiler)[The two main problems I have with it are still lack of character growth and predictability. I hate how the characters are constantly baffled at their own actions (e.g. Jezal not understanding why he's helping the beggar girl), as if Abercrombie reaaaaaally wants to drive the point home that they are changing, only to have them act in completely the opposite way again a few paragraphs or chapters later.

The elaborate reiterations of key events often make the story extremely predictable for me. For example, the fact that so much text was dedicated to describing how Marshall Burr was suddenly much better instantly made me suspicious. When he says to West: "But as it happens, no harm done, eh? The line held, the Northmen were turned out of Angland, and I tottered through alive, as you can see!", I made actually made a note in my book: "Dead within a week." Then on the next page, what do you know, Marshall Burr dies... If that had happened in the previous book, when it might still have been a shock, it could have resulted in a very interesting character arc were West could find a way to take charge and slowly earn the respect of Poulder and Kroy. As it happened now, where he dies right after the ambush is at a point of no return and right after the kind is dead, it just seems like an cheap and easy way to advance the plot withouth really developing the story or characters. (hide spoiler)]

What do you think will happen next?

(view spoiler)[
- The Gurkish fleet will provide a convenient way to postpone the succession vote so Jezal can prove himself. Since the Union army is fighting in the north, the rebel army will conveniently decide to follow Jezals command. (Actually, that was probably the point of the scene with the beggar girl: Jezal has now automatically won the heart of every commoner and he is the only one they will fight for.) After his victory against the Gurkish, Jezal will be made king, which Bayaz is clearly pushing for.

- Bethod will move against Ninefingers and co and will *almost* defeat them, but West will have somehow found a way to get command of the army and show up just in time. King Jezal will probably make West Marshal. Maybe Kroy and Poulder will conveniently die in battle in the meantime.

- Quai will find another master (probably Kahlul, but possibly Caulid) and turn on Bayaz. I suspect they will have a battle in which Bayaz will die (to justify this series being grimdark).

- West will fight and kill the Feared (The Feared and the Furious? I'll show myself out).

- Ninefingers will fight Bethod and probably win.

- No idea why exactly I'm convinced about this, but: Ferro will find/get the Seed and defeat Kahlul.
(hide spoiler)]

I really hope I am wrong about most of this. I had such high expectations after the first book... Hopefully the next fifteen chapters will manage to surprise and intrigue me again.

Next up: chapter 16-30 (The Kingmaker - Rude Awakenings).

Hi there,
I didn't completely follow the format of your questions because I am now 52% in so it would be kind of lame of me to do predictions with regard to certain things. Also, your summaries are of such great quality that I felt it to be rather redundant for me to dwell on these 'significant moments' too much. You summed it up pretty well! Furthermore, I added a few questions because I felt like it :-)

What do you think were the most significant moments? What do you think will happen?

Glokta
(view spoiler)[I don't know what his most significant moment was, as he's scheming left and right per usual, but I sure hope his private investigation of Bayaz is actually going to lead somewhere because Glokta has been asking himself ‘Why do I do this?” like umpteen times now, yet so far he hasn’t found and therefore we haven’t been given a logical or even a plausible answer to this question. I for one would like to see Glokta betraying Sult and go after Bayaz, or merely his own way and discover what his own agenda is very much but I guess the problem with taking that route is that it’s wholly unclear what Glokta has left to believe in or could possibly covet with that broken body of his. What has he got left to fight for? I continue to get the sense that the Gurkish not just broke him physically. Mentally he suffered a great if not greater blow as well, since he seems to have lost his zest for life. He survived but what kind of life is he living? He is going through the motions, does what’s expected of him but with neither real loyalty nor any real conviction. So, I don’t know what will happen here, but the fact that he’s asking himself what he’s doing all this for A LOT suggests that Glokta might go rogue before the end. I do SO hope I’ll be right. Otherwise it’ll be yet another main character without much character growth and that would be very disappointing since Glokta still is my very favorite character of this trilogy. (hide spoiler)]

Bayaz
(view spoiler)[After reading how Bayaz manipulated Jezal in these first 15 chapters, I am convinced this all was very significant and relevant. I think Bayaz has some kind of agenda that hasn’t been revealed to us yet and he is using Jezal as his pawn. And the worst of it is, Jezal doesn't see it. He does find Bayaz’ meddling in his affairs annoying but he doesn't realize to what extent he’s being used nor how dangerous the man actually is, I believe.

I’m also thinking Quai was trying to tell Ferro something that may have been important. And what does he want vengeance for exactly? Intriguing. (hide spoiler)]

West
(view spoiler)[ He proved himself a worthy leader in Burr's eyes and all events were clearly a set- up for him to follow in Burr’s footsteps as Lord Marshall after his death. Very predictable that. (hide spoiler)]


Any memorable quotes?
There were several I liked, but this was the one I noted down: a passage from Chapter 14. It's a conversation between High Justice Morovia and Glokta. I don't think it is an actual spoiler but I'll treat it like one anyway:
(view spoiler)[
'Shall I tell you what would make me happy, Superior Glokta?'
Now for the musings of another power-mad old fart. 'By all means, your Worship.'
Marovia tossed his cutlery onto his plate, sat back in his chair and gave a long, tired sigh. 'I would like no King at all. I would like every man equal under the law, to have a say in the running of his own country and the choosing of his own leaders. I would like no King, and no nobles, and a Closed Council selected by, and answerable to, the citizens themselves. A Closed Council open to all, you might say. What do you think of that?'

I think some people would say that it sounds very much like treason. The rest would simply call it madness. 'I think, your Worship, that your notion is a fantasy.'

'Why so?'

'Because the vast majority of men would far rather be told what to do than make their own choices. Obedience is easy.' (hide spoiler)]

Which character did you enjoy most?
(view spoiler)[I always enjoy Glokta the most due to his sarcastic mind (and his lisp) but an honourable mention does indeed go to the Dogman because he went from rather indifferent to his character to caring about him a great deal. I agree with you that he has grown quite a lot and I think he’s earned his role of being the Northerners' leader for the reasons you mentioned already. (hide spoiler)]

What would your rating be if you had to rate the book right now?
I’d rather not rate it now, both because I’m the kind of person that hangs a lot on a book’s in its entirety - especially the ending and because I am conflicted about what rating to give it right now. I’m enjoying this series more than you, I believe, yet I find myself agreeing with your arguments about lack of character growth and the predictability of several events. So, I guess it would be somewhere around 3 stars right now. I’m really hoping I will be able to give it 4 by the end but I already know that I will at least read 'Sharp Ends' but likely also read other books by Abercrombie in the future.

My favorite chapters:
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 2 – for showing the Dogman’s inner turmoil about behaving like a leader outwardly but feeling anything but inwardly.

Chapter 7 – that scene between Jezal and Glokta about Ardee was just so funny and it made me wonder a bit if Jezal would’ve stood up to Glokta B.M. (before mauling). (hide spoiler)]

What I hated most so far:

(view spoiler)[Logen's decision and return to the North/Northmen and talking about his regret of having done so. Not that I hated the scenes but it's getting annoying for me that Logen always seems to be looking for redemption, yet continues to do the things he did before over and over. He says he doesn't want to fight yet he always finds himself at the other end of a pointy sword.
I've started thinking though - since our noses or rubbed in this so much; was this maybe intentional on Abercrombie's part? Did he try to make a point here? That people talk of wanting to change a lot, yet are unable to truly follow through with actual change? What do you think? (hide spoiler)]

What I loved most so far
(view spoiler)[Again, Glokta's storyline is the most enjoyable for me but right now Jezal's storyline is the most intriguing in terms of what will happen. (hide spoiler)]

PS.
(view spoiler)[ The Feared and the Furious indeed. Had a mental picture of the two in a Ferrari rightaway! (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[
"So, I don’t know what will happen here, but the fact that he’s asking himself what he’s doing all this for A LOT suggests that Glokta might go rogue before the end. I do SO hope I’ll be right."

I absolutely agree! It would be so nice to see Glokta become his own man. It would be really interesting if he could team up with some of the other main characters. And I still maintain it would be awesome to see him go on adventures with Yulwei. (Maybe even find a way to cure his leg and then slowly finding his zest to life again?)
(hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[
"I think Bayaz has some kind of agenda that hasn’t been revealed to us yet and he is using Jezal as his pawn."

To me, his agenda seems quite clear: he was getting bored living in the North and being largely ignored by the rest of the world, so he came back to Adua to try and build an empire again (just as he has done with Harod the Great), while at the same time getting rid of his competition (Kahlul). He has lost most of his appeal to me, since he seems so dead-set on achieving his own agenda regardless of the consequences.
(hide spoiler)]

"I’m really hoping I will be able to give it 4 by the end but I already know that I will at least read 'Sharp Ends' but likely also read other books by Abercrombie in the future."

I'm enjoying the next chapters more, but unless there are some drastic changes I don't think I will be reading Abercrombie again in the near future. Still, it's a great exercise as a first group read. :D

Either this week's chapters were shorted or I'm enjoying the books a bit more than last week. I'm not sure what has changed. Maybe it's simply the fact that not all of my predictions were true and I was occasionally pleasantly surprised. Anyway, it's a bit earlier than planned, but here's my take on the next fifteen chapters.

Week 2: Chapters 16-30 (The Kingmaker - Rude Awakenings)

What happened? What were the most significant moments?

(view spoiler)[
Jezal is revealed by Bayaz to be a bastard son of King Gustav. Due to some bribes by Bayaz, he is voted to be the next king of the Union and engaged to princess Terez from Talin. At the suggestion of Bayaz, he tries to keep Ardee on as a mistress, but she's not interested in the position. Arch Lector Sult is upset and orders Glokta to look into Jezal's background and find dirt on Bayaz. Since Brother Longfoot wasn't useful in that regard, Glotka decides to investigate Ferro.

Ferro predictably discovers she's being followed by Severard and proceeds to kick the shit out of him. Then she kicks the shit out of Glokta for having her followed. Surprisingly, she decides to spare Glokta's life because of their mutual experiences with the Gurkish. Equally surprisingly, Severard has peach fuzz on his upper lip and keeps birds. (Turns out torturing people and frequently getting involvemed in life-threatening situations is a very attractive career option for warm-hearted people that have pets or families relying on them.)

Glokta has nightmares again and goes to ask the old people at the university what they know about the Seed. Superior Goyle interrupts and kicks him out, but not before Vitari warns him about traitors. She tells him to get away, and keep away, which he promptly forgets about after being womanhandled by Ferro. He also gets another assignment by Valint and Balk: to stop researching Jezal's legitimacy and to spy on Sult.

The Northmen are slowly losing ground (or wall) against Bethod's army with each passing day. Logen saves Shivers' life and earns a bit of respect back from him. Then, when the fight is getting increasingly desperate, the Bloody-Nine returns and kills Tul Duru right before the Union arrives in the nick of time to save the day (hey, it's grimdark so we were propably long overdue for a random senseless death). Afterwards, Logen contemplates how worthless violence and vengeance are yet again.

King Jezal gets married to princess Terez from Talin and is terribly impressed by her. Since we keep reading about how much Jezal is warming up to the idea of being married to her, it's no surprise to discover that she wants nothing to do with him in private. Jezal is terribly confused by this, but doesn't feel like he has friends left who he can look to for advice.

Yulwei visits Bayaz to warn him that the Gurkish have landed. He expresses his relief that Bayaz didn't find the Seed - implying that we will definitely see the Seed turn up in the future. Ferro barges in on their conversation and is sent to the frontlines to get her revenge.
(hide spoiler)]


Any memorable quotes?

(view spoiler)[
Glokta, contemplating his imminent death: "Drowned in the bath by a woman in a dirty shirt. Will they find me slumped over the rim, my arse in the air? But what does it matter? It is not how you die, but how you lived, that counts."

I also loved Tul's eulogy by Black Dow: "Tul Duru. Every man in the North knew his name, and every man said it with respect, even his enemies. He was the sort o' man... that gave you hope, I reckon. That gave you hope. You want strength, do you? You want courage? You want things done right and proper, the old way? [He nodded down at the new-turned earth.] There you go. Tul Duru Thunderhead. Look no fucking further. I'm less, now that he's gone, and so are all o' you."
(hide spoiler)]


Which character did you enjoy most?

(view spoiler)[
Still Dogman. Nice to see that he keeps evolving as a chief, and to find out that even in the past he had his reservations about the work he and Logen were doing for Bethod. Good to have at least one character with a bit of depth.
(hide spoiler)]


Favorite chapters

(view spoiler)[
"The Kingmaker" - I didn't expect Jezal to become king this soon, and I did not see the reveal coming. I loved how it upset everyone's careful plans and endless politicing. I suppose I'm a fan of disrupting the status quo.
"Sweet Victory" - The second time in this book that I actually felt something: during Tul Duru's funeral (see below).
(hide spoiler)]


What do you think of the story so far? What did you like or hate?

(view spoiler)[
I loved Glokta's humor in these chapters, especially combined with Ardee ("We make them look like beggars!" "Like scum." "Like cripples.").

I like some of the prose. It feels like Abercrombie is getting better at writing, at least when he's not wasting words on pointing out the obvious.

However, I still hate how over-the-top spelled out everything is. For example, Ferro "did not watch fr Ninefingers. She did not hope to see him slouch on the docks. That would have been a foolish, childish hope, belonging to the foolish child she had been when the Gurkish took her for a slave." Why not let the reader come up with this instead of spelling it out so blatantly? But I guess it's okay, since he made sure to put *not* before the description... This is just not how people think. If you're *sub*consciously not thinking about something, you can't be conciously thinking about how you're not thinking about it at the same time. These descriptions really take me out of the story every time, as if the writer is looking over my shoulder and constantly going: "hey, did you notice this?".

Why does each and every battle now need to have at least one character chop of (pieces of) heads? It's not that I'm bothered by the image, but reading about skull and brains flying around gets repetitive after a while.

The deaths are almost meaningless, because not enough time was spent on making a connection. For example, when Abercrombie describes how difficult Kaspa's death is for West, that is literally the first time it's clear that there is some kind of bond between the two. I only cared about Tul Duru's death after the eulogy, when it became clear that he did in fact have a personality (which I would have like to explore more).
(hide spoiler)]


What do you think will happen next?

(view spoiler)[
Maybe it's weird, but I keep hoping that Glokta and Ardee will somehow get together, since I like their chemistry so much.

Since we keep getting POVs with Ardee in it and Jezal's marriage is not going very smoothly, I suppose we will see them get back together at one point.

I have no idea where Glokta's story with Sult en Valint en Balk is going to. It feels like there's much to discover about the bankers, but we're already through half of the book now. Bethod's not dead yet, and no one of the main characters is near Kahlul. It feels like there's not going to be enough time left to tie up all storylines and subplots.
(hide spoiler)]


Phew. I'm starting to realize that I'm spending waaaaay to much time on these posts, and that these walls of text don't really lead to good discussions.

I started summarizing the chapters purely to help myself remember the story, but maybe taking the summaries out would already help a lot.

What do you think?

Well, you were right about not putting a score on the book before it is finished. I flew through the last chapters, completely ignoring the 15 chapters a week rate... I'll wait until you're finished and then maybe we can discuss a bit.

One thing I can already say is that I now understand most characters not changing or evolving was an intentional choice. I still wish he would have done it more subtly than having the characters explicitely think about how badly they want to be better people, but then act in completely the opposite way.

My experience is that in real life, people often have the intention to improve themselves somewhere in the future, but then always find good reasons to act the same 'just one more time'. In The First Law, the reasons to not act on good intentions almost never seemed compelling enough to me.

I'm reading this near the end of this month. My library hold finally came through, so if anyone is keen to read end of May feel free to join me.