Into the Forest discussion

This is the thread for the original tale winner of our Yule/Christmas themed group read, November 15-January 14.

Nutcracker by E.T.A. Hoffmann

Here's some places it can be found free online:
Generic Ebook: https://archive.org/details/nutcracke...
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/Nutcracker-Mou...
Librivox: https://librivox.org/nutcracker-and-m...

Started reading this story and I can't get the Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy music out of my head. Too many years watching the ballet.

I am reading this edition: and the introduction was very interesting without giving away the story. I've actually never seen the entire ballet (just snippets online or on the TV), and the history of the story and the storyline of the ballet was worth the read.

This edition (which I have actually owned for several years, but never read) has excellent illustrations, but then, I do love Maurice Sendak

I can only vaguely remember seeing the ballet when I was very young (I found it terrifying) so most of the story was new to me. It's very beautiful and imaginative and I wonder why I haven't read it earlier.

Monica wrote: "Started reading this story and I can't get the Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy music out of my head. Too many years watching the ballet."

I love the ballet! Which is a reason I can't believe it's taken me so long to read this. I'm waiting to start until after Thanksgiving (in US) so there's more of a Christmas mood around our house. :)

Leah, I wish I had read the story sooner. It makes me appreciate the ballet all the more.

Hello Portia!

Ooh! Hello Portia!

Oh! I only realised now there are two Portias!

I also only know the ballet and am curious about the story. I ordered the book!

Warning: I read the free kindle edition linked to at the beginning, and it does not contain the entire story. It was about 8 pages, and I got to the end and was really surprised! I thought, That's it?? So then I went to the generic Ebook link and saw it's quite longer.

So don't read the free kindle edition!

Margaret wrote: "Warning: I read the free kindle edition linked to at the beginning, and it does not contain the entire story. It was about 8 pages, and I got to the end and was really surprised! I thought, That's ..."

Odd! I'm clicking on it now and it says 88 pages on the Kindle page. (And it's not free anymore. There isn't a free edition at the moment it seems.)

Kathy wrote: "This edition (which I have actually owned for several years, but never read) has excellent illustrations, but then, I do love Maurice Sendak ..."

That's the edition I read a few years ago. I liked the illustrations too!

Melanti wrote: "Odd! I'm clicking on it now and it says 88 pages on the Kindle page. (And it's not free anymore. There isn't a free edition at the moment it seems.)"

How strange! It was free when I bought it when this thread first went up, but it was certainly not 88 pages.

I have the Sendak version, so I'll read that.

My copy of Nutcracker is supposed to arrive on Sunday. I only know what I've seen onstage, so this will be new for me, too!

Margaret wrote: "Warning: I read the free kindle edition linked to at the beginning, and it does not contain the entire story. It was about 8 pages, and I got to the end and was really surprised! I thought, That's ..."

It should totally be free. Try Project Gutenberg.

Phil wrote: "Try Project Gutenberg. ..."

Oddly enough, I didn't find a translation on Project Gutenberg, only the original (or what I assume is the original).
But it's on archive.org and on Librivox, both of which are free. Links are in the first post.

As I'm reading the story I'm wondering, "Who thought this would make a great ballet?". The story is oddly dark, and at least one character is very creepy. Read a few articles online and found that at first it wasn't well received (the original version). With changes and over time it has become a Christmas season classic throughout much of the world; especially for children.

Here's a link to some history: http://dance.about.com/od/famousballe...

http://www.nutcracker.com/about-us/hi...

Monica wrote: "As I'm reading the story I'm wondering, "Who thought this would make a great ballet?". The story is oddly dark, and at least one character is very creepy. Read a few articles online and found that ..."

In his day, I believe Hoffmann was known mainly as a horror writer. The creepiness fits his reputation.

I agree but that wouldn't make me think "Oh what a lovely holiday ballet this story would be.". Maybe a musical along the lines of Les Miserables.

I found Hoffmann's "Der Sandman" tale equally as dark.

"Swan Lake" is kinda dark, IMHO. Ballet often tends to tragic in the way opera does. And there is the joke about Grimms Fairy Tales deserving their name.

Finished and thought it was cute. I actually didn't find it creepy at all. Well, all that candy was creepy. I'm probably in the minority there. :) It didn't really capture me at any point, or make me think nostalgically of Christmas--I'm really not sure why.

I did enjoy the Sendak illustrations, particularly the one where a wild thing is peaking out over the water.

Margaret wrote: "...the one where a wild thing is peaking out over the water. ..."

Oh yes, I loved that picture too!

I really ought to re-read this so I can comment, but it still doesn't feel like Christmas yet.

Melanti wrote: "I really ought to re-read this so I can comment, but it still doesn't feel like Christmas yet."

I have ordered it, but am saving it for closer towards Christmas!

I have a book to read for Christmas from December 1st - December 25th. Strategically I'll admit to choosing mostly children's books so that I can accomplish this goal.

Melanti wrote: "I really ought to re-read this so I can comment, but it still doesn't feel like Christmas yet."

Maybe that's why I couldn't get into it. It's not holiday season until final grades have been entered!

Maybe!
I finished hanging Christmas lights in windows today.
Now I just have to put up my tree and decide if I want any extra lights in my living room.

Then, maybe I'll get in the spirit of things enough to read this month's group reads.

My copy has arrived. Think I'll treat myself tomorrow:-)

I'll have a free Kindle or PDF copy of it in in its entirety available soon from Fairytalez.com, if you like! It's illustrated in color and black/white.

I really enjoyed this story. Having never seen it (or read it) before, I wasn't sure what to expect, but I loved it, even despite the ending (well, the last page at least).

I wonder if Baum was inspired by the Candy Land at all... it had strong tones of Oz to it.

The Archive version is the one I read, but I'd definitely love to find the Sendak illustrated version--I'm sure that one makes the story even more awesome.

My review is here.

THE NUTCRACKER: A READING LIST from Book Riot.

Margaret wrote: "THE NUTCRACKER: A READING LIST from Book Riot."

How interesting that Edward W. Said's book is mentioned. I don't remember there being Orientalism in the ballet, but it's been years since I've seen it. Come to think of it, I think I only saw it when I was a kid, before I knew what the term was. I only remember the sugar plum fairy's dance!

Monica wrote: "As I'm reading the story I'm wondering, "Who thought this would make a great ballet?". The story is oddly dark, and at least one character is very creepy. Read a few articles online and found that ..."

Exactly! I'm reading it now and pretty sure that I was read it as a child. I also saw the ballet as a kid, so the memories of the book and ballet are blurred together.

Just a question, the title of this thread says no spoilers but I don't think there is a spoiler thread, or is there.

I wanted to ask about How old Marie is supposed to be? She plays with dolls but then ends up getting married! Or has time passed?

Lila wrote: "I wanted to ask about How old Marie is supposed to be. She plays with dolls but then ends up getting married! Or has time passed? "

That was really weird! I imagined her as around 7 the whole time, and then all of a sudden she's an adult. I assume time passes, though mentally it never seems like Marie progresses past 7.

Margaret wrote: "Lila wrote: "I wanted to ask about How old Marie is supposed to be. She plays with dolls but then ends up getting married! Or has time passed? "

That was really weird! I imagined her as around 7 t..."

It feels like time does not pass and that the entire story takes place over a few days during the Christmas holidays. That's why it seems so weird that she gets married in the end!

For some reason I thought she was 11? And that she just gets engaged/betrothed at the end (which at 11 was reasonable at the time?)

I note that children's toys tend to move down in age. (Younger children want to play with the big kids' toys, and then the big kids reject them as babyish.) in the 19th century, it was normal for girls to play with dolls a lot longer than nowadays.

Kathy wrote: "For some reason I thought she was 11? And that she just gets engaged/betrothed at the end (which at 11 was reasonable at the time?)"

Fairy tale time! No explaining it. . . .

Mary wrote: "Fairy tale time! No explaining it. . . . "

Haha, good point.

And I do agree about the toys thing, and also she addresses people in what we would today consider young (Oh my mother! My mother!) but was probably not then.

Still, it felt weird from a modern standpoint! And it still seems like there's a 'fairy tale' leap in time.

Mary wrote: "Kathy wrote: "For some reason I thought she was 11? And that she just gets engaged/betrothed at the end (which at 11 was reasonable at the time?)"

Fairy tale time! No explaining it. . . ."

That definitely must be the case! Wikipedia says she's 7 but reading the story I see no mention of age.
An interesting side note, I was not aware that Alexandre Dumas wrote the ballet adaptation!

Interesting discussion about the age of the character. I'm in the group who thought Marie was around 10 years old, when I read the story. It's gets more confusing after watching the ballet as not only is the dancer whatever age the production decides to use, but the ballet changes the name from Marie to Clara (from Hoffmann's version). And wasn't Clara the name of Marie's doll? I wonder why Hoffmann changed the girl's name.

Edit: I should have said "I wonder why Dumas changed the character's name." (Oops)

Maybe her name was changed because Marie has religious connotations?

I'm reading about the ballet now, and I didn't realize it was based on the Alexander Dumas père adaption of Hoffman's Nutcracker.

Here's a good NPR article about Hoffman's The Nutcracker. http://www.npr.org/2012/12/25/1677328...

Margaret wrote: "Maybe her name was changed because Marie has religious connotations?
I'm reading about the ballet now, and I didn't realize it was based on the Alexander Dumas père adaption of H..."

Monica wrote: "Interesting discussion about the age of the character. I'm in the group who thought Marie was around 10 years old, when I read the story. It's gets more confusing after watching the ballet as not o..."

There is some interesting background information in the intro of the copy I had ( the Nutcracker illustrated by illustrated by Maurice Sendak ). I had to return it to the library, so I can't quote it verbatim, but it seems the people who first directed the ballet found the original story by E.T.A. Hoffmann too dark and therefore used the one by Alexandre Dumas. Wikipedia says Dumas wrote it for the ballet, but the book introduction just says the directors choice to use his version instead, so I don't know if it was already a pre-existing story or not. It also says for the ballet the name was changed from Marie to Claire, but does not say why.
Going over the ending, it looks like an uncertain amount of time goes by after Marie's "Dream" and her marriage proposal, making it possible that she was already older.

Lila wrote: "Going over the ending, it looks like an uncertain amount of time goes by after Marie's "Dream" and her marriage proposal, making it possible that she was already older. "

Agreed!

*Commence over-analyzing*

"Some time after this..." (p. 134 of Archive edition) introduces the section where young Drosselmeier arrives (the "this" presumably the dream and her subsequent scolding). "Some time" is quite broad, but it could easily cover enough years for Marie to be old enough to marry. Additionally, it seems like they wait a "year and a day" (p. 138) to actually have the wedding, so at the very least, in my mind, she's two years older than when the majority of the story took place?

Rereading the final chapter however, I do wonder if the proposal and wedding was all in Marie's mind. It's made known she escapes, in her mind, to the fairy world; plus she is alone when the proposal happens ("Scarcely was Maria alone with young Drosselmeier..." [p.137]), so there's no telling exactly what actually went down. She easily could have dreamed that all up--seeing Drosselmeier there triggered her to fall into her dream world, ignorant of what was actually going on around her, and she just continued the story in her mind.

the version I read, illustrated by Scott Gustafson, makes it clear they marry when they grow up.

I saw the ballet years ago, but never read the story until now. I like the story, but I prefer the ballet- it is not so dark. I wasn't expecting so much death in a children's Christmas story.

Suki wrote: "I saw the ballet years ago, but never read the story until now. I like the story, but I prefer the ballet- it is not so dark. I wasn't expecting so much death in a children's Christmas story."

I reread my review to check my thoughts on this: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Basically, it didn't strike me as being all that violent or weird compared to other children's classics. Does anyone else share that opinion, or am I just too tolerant of violent weirdness?

Phil wrote: "Basically, it didn't strike me as being all that violent or weird compared to other children's classics. Does anyone else share that opinion, or am I just too tolerant of violent weirdness? "

By today's standards of children's lit, it probably is over-the-top, if not in the violence, but in the "creep" factor. But that was par for the course with kids lit from this time period.

I for one have always loved phantasmagorical, surreal stuff like this, and I thought it relatively mellow compared to some other works at the time, say, Struwwelpeter: Fearful Stories and Vile Pictures to Instruct Good Little Folks (O_o).

I can see that it wouldn't exactly be the most "happy" Christmas story to read, with the images it gives off, but I do think it's also a unique genre to mix in with the other classic Christmas stories.

Phil wrote: "Basically, it didn't strike me as being all that violent or weird compared to other children's classics. Does anyone else share that opinion, or am I just too tolerant of violent weirdness?."

I agree. Many 19th century children's lit is quite dark, all the way up until the 1950s, really.

Think how creepy even Peter Pan was.

I never got into the mood to re-read this book this Christmas, but I don't recall it being especially creepy.

Hi! Just jumping in to say that my interest in the story started when my kids got an animated DVD of the story which I found quite disturbing. It turned out the DVD was based on the Hoffman story. I bought the edition with the Sendak pictures, which go so well. It is quite a wierd story, but I rather like that it is so different from the ballet, which is shown every year at my local theatre.