McCaffery 20th Century Greatest Hits Reading Group discussion

Ok, the deed is done. Not going back now. :D

Nooooooooooo......

Haaze wrote: "Nooooooooooo......

"

Argh!
"Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you." -Edward "Blackbeard" Teach, before his final battle.


Fifteen men on the Dead Man's Chest Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum! Drink and the devil had done for the rest Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!”
― Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island

Mark (and all of course),

I have a question for you in regards to Ulysses. Which of the many versions (from original to different revisions) is the one to read? I always feel a bit confused as I encounter the different editions. Which one would you recommend for our group?

It seems like the original 1922 edition is the way to go according to Mark (I messaged him earlier). He wrote "A 1961 Random House paperback is for me the best reading copy of Ulysses. Also any other edition based on a '61 Random House is good. Also available from Dover Books is a reprint of the original 1922 Shakespeare & Co. version which is also good."

I looked at the Dover reprint edition earlier today. It is somewhat larger than the regular book and allows for plenty of notes (which I think will be critical). It is also affordable (at least here in the US // 8 pounds in the UK). And BLUE (like the malstroem) !!
ISBN-13: 978-0486474700

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ulysses-Jame...

https://smile.amazon.com/Ulysses-Jame...

Are there any other aspects to consider before I take the plunge?

:) Like frosty blue ice ....hmmm...I like blue. It is important to get it right from the very beginning as this will be a companion for many weeks months years decades.....

Haaze wrote: "It seems like the original 1922 edition is the way to go according to Mark (I messaged him earlier). He wrote "A 1961 Random House paperback is for me the best reading copy of Ulysses. Also any oth..."
Dive! Dive! Dive!

Manda wrote: "Haaze wrote: "It seems like the original 1922 edition is the way to go according to Mark (I messaged him earlier). He wrote "A 1961 Random House paperback is for me the best reading copy of Ulysses..."
The blue here is meant, i think, to replicate the original '22 edition:
that color being chosen by the author to resemble the "blue" from the Greek flag.

Haaze wrote: ":) Like frosty blue ice ....hmmm...I like blue. It is important to get it right from the very beginning as this will be a companion for many weeks months years decades....."
Yes! Decades! :-)

Which edition did you pick up, Manda?

Manda wrote: "Haaze wrote: "Which edition did you pick up, Manda?"

No ice cold cover on this one! Its Ulysses alma classics based on 1939odyssey press edition. With annotations by Sam slote trin..."

That sounds a bit of alright. :D

Manda wrote: "Haaze wrote: "Which edition did you pick up, Manda?"

No ice cold cover on this one! Its Ulysses alma classics based on 1939odyssey press edition. With annotations by Sam slote trin..."
I just read recently a essay by mr slote - archived at i think the irish national library - which details very carefully the history and the veracity of all/most/all of the various english language editions of Ulysses.

I read the Gabler edition as a Vintage paperback - I didn't know that it was controversial when I bought the book. Since I have not read any of the other editions I cannot really say whether the controversy was justified.

Is there a reason why this thread is filed under the Pale Fire discussion, and is it too late to move it somewhere more logical?

Hugh wrote: "Is there a reason why this thread is filed under the Pale Fire discussion, and is it too late to move it somewhere more logical?"

It must have been a Joycean decision... ;-) [fixed]

Probably a bit early to say very much about my experience of reading Ulysses two years ago, but I would start by saying do not even attempt to understand every sentence. I lost count of the number of languages that are quoted - there is even a character who speaks in Hungarian! I have to admit to allowing my reading to be a little too impressionistic - there are some sections I could barely follow at all and others that are almost straightforward...

Hi Everyone,

If people are still looking to obtain the best edition of Ulysses, I'd recommend going with the original typeset, available in a handsome edition with additional material from the OUP (Oxford University Press). On a first reading this is probably the best option, though differences with, say, the Gabler edition are only apparent when one really digs in. Also, lots of helpful material is, of course, available for free online, but ReJoyce by Anthony Burgess, and The Bloomsday Book by Harry Blamires are both extremely useful to navigate the harder parts of the novel and are fun reads themselves.

Thanks for the info! The edition I have is from The Modern Library and I have the annotations by Don Gifford which is a whole book on its own. On my last attempt it was taking me forever to get through each paragraph, dare I say, each sentence! While reading and looking at the annotations. I agree with Hugh that focusing on each sentence is exhausting and I'm curious about which strategies each will employ get through it

In my opinion, the worst thing you can do is try to follow Joyce reference for reference, allusion for allusion. The first time anyway. I found Ulysses before its reputation reached me and just read it like any other book. Lots didn't compute, but a surprising amount did. You'll certainly be able to follow the plot, and you'll intuit a lot of the rest. Parsing out the nuts and bolts of what Joyce is doing becomes rewarding only later. Ulysses is a magnificently enjoyable novel, and it's achingly beautiful. Just enjoy it the first time. If you end up loving it, return to it and follow Joyce deeper. Don't get bogged down.

wise words ATJG - I agree with all of that!

ATJG, that is great advice!!! Thank you! :)

Some suggestions for first time Ulysses readers:
Try and avoid outside resources: synopses and plot summaries in particular. Half the fun of reading any book, especially a novel is discovery and surprise. Let the book surprise you.
You do not need any particular knowledge of Homer, or the Odyssey, or Joyce, or Shakespeare, or Ireland, or History, or Art.
You don't need to know that Stephen Dedalus was the hero of Joyce's previous novel. (we all bring a lot to any new read, i'm just trying to say that you don't need anything extra for this particular book).
(most external reading is usually more profitable when reading for a second read.)

Structurally, I divide the chapters 8.5.3.2. And label them: Introduction, Development, Climax, and Resolution.

Stylistically, I see three main variations: the critically identified "initial style" (1-8); the much maligned finale style(s) (14-18); and the style of the five chapters in between (9-13). So then algebraically: the difficulty factor could be expressed as X - 10X - 100X. (additionally, the first 13 chapters, the daytime chapters are half the book, and the final five "night" chapters are the second half).

In my humble opinion Ulysses is primarily a love story: one day in the life of Poldy and Molly's 16 year marriage, an intimate discussion, it seems to me, of the line from Yeats poem:
"And no more turn aside and brood
Upon love's bitter mystery;"

Finally, to quick quotes from the introduction of Stanley Sultan's 1964 The Argument of Ulysses.

"...as equivocal as (Ulysses) may be in method. it is, in my opinion, a novel; all the voices harmonize to one register - the story of what happens, to whom, any why."

"...(Ulysses) is not Romance, not a joke, not a spiritual guide, not even an encyclopedia of social disintegration or a re-creation of Myth or a symbolist poem; it is a novel, and what is of permanent interest about it is what always interests us with the novel: its imaginative illumination of the moral - and ultimately, spiritual - experience of representative human beings."

ATJG wrote: "In my opinion, the worst thing you can do is try to follow Joyce reference for reference, allusion for allusion. The first time anyway. I found Ulysses before its reputation reached me and just rea..."
I had exactly the same "first time" reading experience, with a very similar result. Welcome to the group!

Reading all of these comments make me realize I'm in for a lifetime challenge.... ! I understand that many readers return to this book every few years to ponder it further?

Haaze wrote: "Reading all of these comments make me realize I'm in for a lifetime challenge.... ! I understand that many readers return to this book every few years to ponder it further?"
It is the most re-readable of books!

Hi Mark, thank you so much for the suggestions. I consider myself a first time reader, only made it to about 20 pages in my previous attempt and did make the mistake of reading through the annotations and explanations and started to feel very overwhelmed and took away from enjoying the flow of the reading. This time around and taking into consideration everyone's advice I'm feeling more confident that I can finally finish, and most importantly I can enjoy it! It is a great book, I would definitely come back to it for a reread :)

Fab wrote: "Hi Mark, thank you so much for the suggestions. I consider myself a first time reader, only made it to about 20 pages in my previous attempt and did make the mistake of reading through the annotati..."
Hi Fab! Your welcome. I don't think that reading annotations and explanations is a mistake. We all do it. I'm just saying, as others have: put the book first. (I think we are all really fortunate to have so many enthusiasts in this group.)

Manda wrote: "Thanks Mark, I'm just about to set up additional threads for spoiler discussions as we have done for Pale Fire. Thanks for suggestion as to how read can be broken down......"
Your welcome. :-)

Mark wrote: "Manda wrote: "Thanks Mark, I'm just about to set up additional threads for spoiler discussions as we have done for Pale Fire. Thanks for suggestion as to how read can be broken down......"
Your wel..."

That was a great help - I had no idea myself how to go about it. :)

Things not to worry about when reading Ulysses for the first time.

Because of the "stream-of-consciousness" style some patience should be afford the text until the reader becomes familiar with it.

The two primary difficulties are attribution of voice and vaguely referenced pro-nouns. One example from the first page of chapter 4, will show both.

"-- Mkgnao!"
"-- O, there you are, Mr Bloom said turning from the fire."
"The cat mewed in answer and stalked again stiffly round a leg of the table, mewing. Just how she stalks over my writingtable.
Prr. Scratch my head. Prr."
"Mr Bloom watched curiously, kindly,..." (Dover, pg. 53)

So, the first two lines: the cat speaks. Then Bloom answers, as the narrator describes Bloom's actions.

Then there is a brief 5 line paragraph: "The cat mewed" is spoken by the narrator. The second line: "Just how she" is Bloom thinking to himself, which we readers are allowed to hear. The next five words, three brief sentences pose the question: who's speaking?

Part of the problem could be the quickly repeated pronoun "my".
Bloom says "my table" and then someone? says "my head".
I think the last 5 words come from the cat. Translated by the narrator from Cat into English, but I'm not sure.

If you believe what one reads about Ulysses, the biggest single "turn-off" in the book are the first two words of chapter 3!
"Ineluctable modality..."
Why Joyce chose these two words I have no idea.
Why so many people claim to quit, right here! I have no idea.
Using my dictionary when I first read them myself I came up with the translation: "undeniable reality..." And just kept going.

Even the cat has a dialogue? I love this book. Thanks for the explanation Mark, it is very helpful! This is one of the things that it takes you a while to get used to, the mix between the narrators descriptions, the characters dialogues external and internal, etc. I love a book that keeps me on my toes and demands my whole attention

Manda, I have to get to that book soon!

Fab wrote: "Even the cat has a dialogue? I love this book. Thanks for the explanation Mark, it is very helpful! This is one of the things that it takes you a while to get used to, the mix between the narrators..."
Yes. It demands a lot of attention, but it also delivers a lot of rewards. Hopefully!

Fab wrote: "Even the cat has a dialogue? I love this book. Thanks for the explanation Mark, it is very helpful! This is one of the things that it takes you a while to get used to, the mix between the narrators..."
Your welcome. Being a Joyce lover for years, and being surrounded by so much enthusiasm to read Ulysses is really fun! :-)

Manda wrote: "Mark wrote: "Fab wrote: "Even the cat has a dialogue? I love this book. Thanks for the explanation Mark, it is very helpful! This is one of the things that it takes you a while to get used to, the ..."
Then everything is set. We're going to have so much fun! :-)

Manda wrote: "I'm taking Ulysses happy pills on prescription, that's why I'm feeling the Ulysses love! ."

I thought those were illegal? ; -)

Haaze wrote: "Manda wrote: "I'm taking Ulysses happy pills on prescription, that's why I'm feeling the Ulysses love! ."

I thought those were illegal? ; -)"
It was only illegal from 1922 until 1934. :-))

Hugh wrote: "I read the Gabler edition as a Vintage paperback - I didn't know that it was controversial when I bought the book. Since I have not read any of the other editions I cannot really say whether the co..."
Though I read about the controversy between Jason Kidd and Hans Gabler - mostly in NYRB - my prejudice against the Gabler text - and others, like Oxford's - is mostly based on appearance. Their type sets, done by computer, are barbaric: lacking any sense of proportion or aesthetics as to how the words appear on the page.
(Just an opinion - not a criticism of any kind.)

Mark wrote: "Things not to worry about when reading Ulysses for the first time.

Because of the "stream-of-consciousness" style some patience should be afford the text until the reader becomes familiar with it..."

Why would 'ineluctable modality' be a turn off? I love that word ineluctable, it exists in French too. :D
I am sure to use it when I get to write one of my books, lol.

Laure wrote: "Mark wrote: "Things not to worry about when reading Ulysses for the first time.

Because of the "stream-of-consciousness" style some patience should be afford the text until the reader becomes fam..."
Good point! Whenever Stephen is on stage, his idiom can be difficult to understand. I can't even count the number of times I've read commentary or just advice, where "experts" suggest just skipping the whole chapter and moving on to #4.
But to really answer your question I think is impossible. Why are there people who don't like cats, or dogs, or shakespeare or classical music...? Hmm... :-)

Some more thoughts before starting Ulysses.
Before Joyce had even finished writing Ulysses he was publishing individual opening chapters in certain literary magazines in both England and America. Each chapter had a title. All borrowed from the Odyssey, mostly single words, mostly characters' names. When the whole book went to press Joyce decided not to use the chapter titles. But even today, almost 100 years later everyone: critic and commoner alike use the titles to refer to the individual chapters. They are then:

Telemachus - Nestor - Proteus (1-50)
Calypso - Lotus Eaters - Hades - Aeolus - Lestrygonians (51-175)

Scylla & Charybdis - Wandering Rocks (176-244)
Sirens - Cyclops - Nausicaa (245-365)

Oxen of the Sun - Circe - Eumaeus (366-618)

Ithaca - Penelope (619-732)*

Two things here: this is still the 8.5.3.2 plot pattern mention before, with two added sub-division: 8 becomes 3 & 5, and 5 becomes 2 & 3. Where the first number represents those chapters devoted to Stephen and the second number chapters devoted to Molly and Bloom. (there need be two small qualifications: Chapter 7, Aeolus is divide between Stephen and Bloom; and assigning Wandering Rocks to Stephen takes some qualifications not necessary here.)
The second point: I have never been able to learn how to say either Scylla & Charybdis or Eumaeus, so I will refer to them as Library and Cabman respectively.)

One other small, but interesting note: When the actual process to get the whole book printed got going and Joyce began receiving proof-sheets from the printer to make whatever changes and corrections he deemed necessary, he added in the margins additions which eventual accumulated to almost 250 pages of additional text, literally 1/3 of the whole 750 page book!

One more thought: one of the most interesting changes/additions Joyce made was the insertion of the so-called "headlines" in the Aeolus chapter. Critics have been railing against them ever since.
*(pagination from the '09 Dover)

Very interesting! I have seemingly avoided Joyce for years, but I am very intrigued by the structure of the book....
Thanks Mark!

Haaze wrote: "Very interesting! I have seemingly avoided Joyce for years, but I am very intrigued by the structure of the book....
Thanks Mark!"
I think you lucky! I would estimate there are millions of poor souls out there who's experience of Ulysses was ruined by some university. :-)
I guess I should add that the "structure" I've presented is only my own interpretation.

We are starting at a low level, right? Right.....?

Haaze wrote: "We are starting at a low level, right? Right.....?

"
Right! (you post the most interesting pictures.)

"the happy reader"

"(He) never stopped to explain anything."

"...he put his (characters out there) without any explanations, and as they move about and start talking they begin to explain themselves."

"...this...demands a great deal of the reader."

"...the reader has to do the extra work for (him or her)self."

"(He or she) has to discover the line of the story and the personalities of the characters, and some people find this so confusing that they say (the author) is too hard for them."

"...(the author's) stories are taught in schools as 'required reading'".

"The average person...starts to read...and finds that...(it) makes very little sense." "So (they) put the book down, convinced that (the author) is much to difficult to be read for pleasure and that the whole subject is overrated."

"...reading (these works)...should never (be done) carelessly, with only half the attention...they demand the full stretch of the reader's mind and all the intelligence and imagination (he or she) possesses."

"...he wrote to give delight...enjoyment...the happy reader."

I apologize for the rather crude paraphrasing here. The only reason I posted this is that it is NOT about Joyce or Ulysses, and yet it all sounds so familiar. Rather, the comments quoted here come from the Introduction to "Stories From Shakespeare" by Marchette Chute, 1956.

That is very funny, Mark. I completely believed that you pulled those comments from a "Joyce" guide of some type!

Haaze wrote: "That is very funny, Mark. I completely believed that you pulled those comments from a "Joyce" guide of some type!"
Cool! That's exactly what I was aiming at.
- )

I figured, you sly Joycean you!

Haaze wrote: "I figured, you sly Joycean you!"
Cool, again! I like that: "sly Joycean".
- )