Reading the Chunksters discussion

In this section I am still having some trauma adjusting to the sharp contrast from Homo and Ursus and our small abandoned children. We learn about Duchess Josiana and Lord David and their bizarre situation of being obligated to marry, but putting that off as long as possible. Josiana's sister Queen Anne was not a fan of hers for various reasons, but it remains to be seen how that portion of the plot will thicken. Meanwhile, Barkilphedro is the ultimate double (triple??) agent, working to spy on each of these individuals and report back any gossip to the others. He must have been quite masterful at his job, as none seem to have any awareness that his allegiances are divided. To me, Barkilphedro appears to be fully evil in his heart, and while this section does not exactly reveal what ill deeds he is planning, it is clear that he has ill intentions for Josiana, who he hates/loves??

What do you think of each of these characters at this point in the novel? Why do you think Barkilphedro is so malignant, has his appearance made him that way or something else?

What are your thoughts on this line from the book, is gratitude paralysis as Hugo writes?

This slime of a good action performed towards
you bedaubs and bespatters you with mud for
ever.

what do you think about the truly despicable and criminal 'fun' activities described in this section? Was there total lawlessness about these types of activities?

Stay tuned, we return to our abandoned boy in the next section!!!

Happy thanksgiving everyone!!!

Yes, Happy Thanksgiving to all. I am thankful today that we are sharing this read. If we weren't sharing this experience, I would have probably finished it weeks ago, hardly analyzing the plot at all, and that would be a shame. This book is wonderful!

Dianne wrote: "In this section I am still having some trauma adjusting to the sharp contrast from Homo and Ursus and our small abandoned children. We learn about Duchess Josiana and Lord David and their bizarre s..."
Dianne, we know that Bark is "maybe a little in love" with Josiana. I'm enjoying the machinations of this character. I have no idea how much Hugo is imagining vs. the real world at that time: I'd like to think his imagination is running wild.
About that slime line: it sounds to me like when person A is kind to Person B, Person B is splattered with obligation to Person A. (In this particular world that Hugo has presented to us.)

To All, I had to laugh out loud while in the lobby of a doctor's office when I read this:
"A gentlemen of the bedchamber sleeps near the king every night, on a bed which is made up for him. There are twelve gentlemen, who relieve each other." I'm pretty sure Hugo isn't referring to a current connotation of the word relieve, but still I thought this hilarious.

And another wonderful line:
"One cannot hate solely for honor; some seasoning is necessary-a man, a woman, somebody, to destroy."

Anyone feel the fight scene was a rather odd way to get us to Gwynplaine? Maybe it all makes since with next week's reading.

Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "In this section I am still having some trauma adjusting to the sharp contrast from Homo and Ursus and our small abandoned children. We learn about Duchess Josiana and Lord David and ..."

that is certainly the way it sounds, doesn't it? It is for that very reason that I hate to be indebted to anyone. I would never borrow money as I hate the feeling of being beholden. Or owing someone a favor!

Greg wrote: "To All, I had to laugh out loud while in the lobby of a doctor's office when I read this:
"A gentlemen of the bedchamber sleeps near the king every night, on a bed which is made up for him. There a..."

the relieving was amusing, yes, but also the very idea of one man needing TWELVE people to take turns attending to them while they are sleeping?? For what??

Greg wrote: "And another wonderful line:
"One cannot hate solely for honor; some seasoning is necessary-a man, a woman, somebody, to destroy.""

this was interesting to me. Does this mean, that to truly hate someone, it has to be personal?

Greg wrote: "Anyone feel the fight scene was a rather odd way to get us to Gwynplaine? Maybe it all makes since with next week's reading."

the fight scene was one of the most bizarre digressions in the book so far. I can't wait to see how (if at all) some of these side meanderings fit into the larger story. With respect to this one, I actually hope it doesn't!

Does anyone think the ten year old boy could be Clancharlie's son who was orphaned as an infant?

Good thought Peg! That totally makes sense and would bring the different parts of the story together!

Dianne wrote: "Greg wrote: "And another wonderful line:
"One cannot hate solely for honor; some seasoning is necessary-a man, a woman, somebody, to destroy.""

this was interesting to me. Does this mean, that to ..."
Yes, I think to hate someone (and I don't mean hate as in "I hate that TV show), but deep down hate and it naturally follows that for the hate to be resolved, the object of hate must be destroyed. But that's so pointless, isn't it, to destroy a person you hate. Because if you're the kind of person with that much hate, you're going to find more people to hate.

Dianne wrote: "Greg wrote: "Anyone feel the fight scene was a rather odd way to get us to Gwynplaine? Maybe it all makes since with next week's reading."

the fight scene was one of the most bizarre digressions i..."

Agree, weird digression and I'm not much interested in the characters. I don't get this segue.

Peg wrote: "Does anyone think the ten year old boy could be Clancharlie's son who was orphaned as an infant?"
Peg, interesting!

I found myself skimming through this section... and getting confused with the characters at times. And also not liking any of them very much.
Interested to see how this is all going to tie together.

Just got through this section today. Things have been hectic, but I hope to catch up.

It is interesting how Hugo compares Love and Hate. Chapter IX is titled "Hate Is As Strong As Love." Now, one can argue that Love is strongest of all (and it IS), but Hugo points out a similarity between the two. Passion. Barkilphedro is consumed with a desire or passion to harm Josiana.

"One cannot hate solely for honor; some seasoning is necessary-a man, a woman, somebody, to destroy."

I take the above statement as follows: You can Love unconditionally, in fact, real and true love is unconditional. However, in order to hate you have to have a reason and object of hate.

Barkilphedro's object of hate is rich nobles, specifically Josiana. Why? It goes back to this quote That Dianne posted:

This slime of a good action performed towards
you bedaubs and bespatters you with mud for
ever.

In that whole passage, we can see how Barkilphedro feels to be dependent on rich nobles. It is also mentioned later that as the charity case you are expected to kiss up to the patron on the pedestal, disregarding respect for yourself. That is, or at least part of the reason, why Barkilphedro hates Josiana.

Dianne wrote: "Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "In this section I am still having some trauma adjusting to the sharp contrast from Homo and Ursus and our small abandoned children. We learn about Duchess Josiana and Lo..."
Diane, "never a borrower or a lender be" I always say. Oddly, I remember that quote only from the musical version of Hamlet given by Gilligan and his friends on his TV island. (Well, other than emergency health issues of friends and family...)

JJ wrote: "Just got through this section today. Things have been hectic, but I hope to catch up.

It is interesting how Hugo compares Love and Hate. Chapter IX is titled "Hate Is As Strong As Love." Now, one..."
JJ, good points. And it isn't enough to just hate, as Hugo tells us, for hate instills further actions: to destroy.

Wow! When the poor self-images were being handed out, Barkilphedro was at the top of the queue (line)! I'm being facetious here, but there may be some truth in the thought. Perhaps some of his hatred directed at Josiana is simply the other side of the coin. In other words, love that he may feel for her is thwarted and unlike the 'star-crossed lovers' of 'Romeo and Juliet', Barkilphedro's love is one-sided. He rails against the injustice of it. Had he been handsome, wealthy, of high birth or one of these he might have had a chance. At least it would have been an even playing field. He's like a child coveting a toy which is denied to him. He wants to destroy the toy. If he is not going to have it then no one will. Josiana is in an unenviable position. And that is certainly an understatement!

Peg, what an interesting idea! I had forgotten about Clancharlie's son. I wonder...

Part II. Book I. Parts IV-XII

In these sections, to me it was evident the motivation behind Barkilphedro's drive in wanting to hurt Josiana was fueled not so much by what Hugo says about him directly, but it was in how he writes about this character indirectly. As I read, I was being led to think Barkilphedro was propelled forward by his hate: for the disparaging differences in social classes, or the treatment of the poor. People do not hold on to so much hate, to the point of desecrating somebody else's livelihood and feeling joy from their demise just because they hold them in contempt. Haters hate because they see something in others they lack in themselves...He is immensely insecure, and this makes him an uglier entity on top of his physical deficits Hugo makes us aware of in the reading. He knows due to his post in life along with not being a man to be desired, that deep down he will never be accepted by Josiana regardless of how much wealth he accumulates-She will never love him. Like Hugo, I too believe, Perhaps he was a little in love with her (250). Also, on the flip side, people are not born with an innate sense of hate...Barkilphedro must have been exposed to extreme neglect and violence in his life before we meet him.

This character is a sociopath beyond measure the words and thoughts that escaped his mind, or those that were written about him were cringeworthy and not something you can come back from once said or written.

To unmake that of others? A greater happiness. To hurt is to enjoy. To have within one the desire of injuring, vague but implacable, and never to lose sight of it, is not given to all. Barkilphedro possessed that fixity of intention (233).

The teeth can look, just as the eyes can bite (234)...

were a few of the many times I truly felt disgusted by this character. He's vile, deplorable, but worst...He's cunning (Yuck!). And because of this he was able to cement his position in court as a jetsam officer...I think a certain bottle we've talked about may land in the hands of this very calculating scary man.

Peg wrote: "Does anyone think the ten year old boy could be Clancharlie's son who was orphaned as an infant?"

Hilary wrote: "Wow! When the poor self-images were being handed out, Barkilphedro was at the top of the queue (line)! I'm being facetious here, but there may be some truth in the thought. Perhaps some of his hatr..."

In other words, love that he may feel for her is thwarted and unlike the 'star-crossed lovers' of 'Romeo and Juliet', Barkilphedro's love is one-sided.
I agree with this sentiment 100%, Hillary.

Clancharlie's son
Yes, right there with you on this as well