Victorians! discussion

Please post background info and resources here.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/d...

This link is worth checking out. There are spoilers! It emphasizes the importance to the the story of the illustrations--"stunning synthesis of pictorial and textual narratives". My kindle version has some illustrations, but perhaps not all.

The article suggests ways that this story anticipates A Tale of Two Cities.
"In taking itself so seriously, in its rhetorical convolutions, and in its bright but cynical protagonist, The Haunted Man anticipates another short novel a decade later: A Tale of Two Cities. Both books share the motif of the terrible secret from the past that blights the present, especially for the story's melancholy professional, and of that alienated individual's redemption through love."

Also keep in mind that the Victorian tradition was to tell ghost stories at Christmas

Deborah wrote: "Also keep in mind that the Victorian tradition was to tell ghost stories at Christmas"

Oh that's interesting! What is the history of this? A pagan remnant perhaps?

Kerstin wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Also keep in mind that the Victorian tradition was to tell ghost stories at Christmas"

Oh that's interesting! What is the history of this? A pagan remnant perhaps?"


Anybody want to research this? I'm literally packing to leave town in the morning.

Kerstin wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Also keep in mind that the Victorian tradition was to tell ghost stories at Christmas"

Oh that's interesting! What is the history of this? A pagan remnant perhaps?"

Hi Kerstin

Without going into a lengthy explanation you are correct. Christmas and its celebrations as we know it today is a reasonably recent event. Like most events, there is a history. Holly bushes the winter solstice, the belief that the earth was slowing awakening as the sun made the days grow ever-so-slowly longer and other vestiges of "our" Christmas do have their origins, as you say, in "pagan remnant[s]."

Building from the title of Dickens's A Christmas Carol is an interesting study. The origin of the word Carol, for instance, is from a word that meant to celebrate with song and dance. Even Dickens's use of the word "Stave" to mark the text divisions has its musical reference as in musical staves. Between the pagan celebrations and the Dickens Christmas we find the Puritans who did not want any music, or dancing, or celebration of Christmas as we know it. There were those who collected the earlier music (not the modern Christmas songs) and rituals and preserved them. In the early 19C such earlier music and rituals were re-introduced to the early Victorians. Along comes Prince Albert, marries Victoria, they begin to have children, they want to portray the proper and ideal family, the Christmas tree is introduced by Albert, Charles Dickens writes A Christmas Carol and the sea-change occurs.

That's a very general, wide-ranging answer and I'm sure Google will have lots to add... or correct. Basically, however, pagan ritual, sound and dance, repression, the re-emergence and collection of concepts, the Queen and her family and Charles Dickens.

Deb has mentioned that the Victorian writers delighted in creating ghost stories during the Christmas season.

Who knows, maybe this is the origin of modern grinches and other Christmas TV and movie uglies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleme...

Here's a link to Clement Moore who gave us the famous Christmas poem in the early 19C

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoma...

And here's a link to Thomas Nast who gave us our modern image of Santa Claus.

Both Nast and Clement Moore were American, and both helped shape the idea of our modern Christmas during the 19C

Then, of course, we have all the 100's of Coca Cola images of Santa, but that, as they say, is another story. :-))

Another link: https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

According to this article, it seems that the earliest record of this tradition was 1600. Long after pagan customs.

Peter wrote: "Building from the title of Dickens's A Christmas Carol is an interesting study. The origin of the word Carol, for instance, is from a word that meant to celebrate with song and dance. Even Dickens's use of the word "Stave" to mark the text divisions has its musical reference as in musical staves. ..."

This is so interesting! I am a Dickens newbie, and one of the unique characteristics of his prose that struck me in The Haunted Man was the rhythm--the musicality and the literal dance of the shadows. I am now reading "The Chimes", included in my kindle edition, and am finding the same dancing prose.

Ginny wrote: "Peter wrote: "Building from the title of Dickens's A Christmas Carol is an interesting study. The origin of the word Carol, for instance, is from a word that meant to celebrate with song and dance...."

Hi Ginny

Yes. I also think there is much music in the construction of sentences, the selective use of words, use of punctuation and even text presentation.

On the other side of sound, Dickens is great at creating cacophony as well. Take a look at the entrance of Marley's ghost in A Christmas Carol. The style makes you want to cover your ears. Great stuff.

Peter wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Also keep in mind that the Victorian tradition was to tell ghost stories at Christmas"

Oh that's interesting! What is the history of this? A pagan remnant perhaps?"..."

Thanks Peter - this is very interesting.

So the German Christmas tree made it to England via Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Since he was German, no surprise here. Germans have taken the custom everywhere they went :)

If anyone would like to read more about Dickens and Christmas I would suggest Charles Dickens in Context. This book has very succinct chapters on many aspects of Dickens and includes, of course, a chapter on Dickens and Christmas.

Ginny wrote: "Another link: https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

According to this article, it seems that the earliest record of this tradition was 1600. Long after pagan customs."

I don't know much about English customs, but on the Continent you'd be surprised how many customs with pagan roots have survived into the present. You will find these primarily in areas that have remained predominantly Catholic and rural.

"In what would be the first public performance of the technique known as Pepper's ghost, John Henry Pepper staged a Christmas Eve production of play in 1862 at the Royal Polytechnic Institution (currently known as the University of Westminster) in 309 Regent Street. It was very well received, if only for the new apparatus's ability to project a ghost so as to look as though it is interacting with those on stage." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hau...)

Apparently these performances, although the device very effectively had the ghost appearing, passing through walls, and fading away, emphasized the idea that the ghost was the product of Redlaw's melancholy, a dangerous illusion. The method used was very popular in Victorian theatre, and is called "Dr. Pepper's Ghost."