Green Group discussion

I believe it was James who asked that we read a book on overpopulation. I really don't know what book I will read on that topic, but I will look around. With the new year coming soon, I thought we could read a book of our own choosing on population issues. Anyone can join in and share what they are reading and make comments. Articles and other info are also fine. Post the book and author when you make a decision if you so wish.

Turning Point by Robert McClory - The Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control Commission of the
Mid 1960s & How & Why It Failed When The Population of the World was Half of What It Is Today in 2016, which is 7.5 Billion. The Human Carrying Capacity of a Healthy Earth was Not Discussed with this Commission. The Major Focus Was on Woman's Health, which of course is an important subject. But so is the Carrying Capacity Topic. So perhaps there is a present day need to establish another Vatican Birth Control Commission & discuss both of these topics.

It seems like these problems we are now facing only became apparent in the last 50 years but in reality we are in the second century of these situations and have little to show for it.

Most of this stuff fails because people are asked to make sacrifices they don't want to make. The creation of these solutions has to involve everyone involved. It is clear that leaders would prefer to drink the power rather than share it.

When the family unit is strengthened by the number of children in the family and nothing is offered to them to give up this advantage by people who got a lot more opportunities, the motion to limit is probably going to fail.

The number of new births isn't even accelerating like it used to but because there are so many people in the limited space we have reached the point where even limited birth rates are probably going to fall short of the mark.

Giving people an education within an infrastructure that allows them to get by with less and still have more than what they would have had is probably the only real option.

The Earth's oceans aren't as healthy as they used to be. Which might be a negative factor in any formulas that might be used to compute capacity values.

For a start, it might help if people could come up with ways to use all this new fresh water that is being introduced into the Earth's eco systems in a way that benefits everyone.

I've never been able to find a good book on overpopulation.

Then, you have good environmental authors - like Mark Hertsgaard in his book "Hot" - who minimize the issues with overpopulation. (He claims that overconsumption is more important when it comes to climate change than overpopulation).

Also, I've found that even environmental organizations shy away from overpopulation.

To me, it is an enormous problem. But the solutions, for various reasons, make it hard to discuss.

Consumption is definitely part of the equation. JK

Maybe there are too many parts to the equation.

James wrote: "Consumption is definitely part of the equation. JK"

I definitely agree.

But people do recognize that overconsumption is a problem, but rarely talk about overpopulation.

I think that both should be considered, and can be considered in conjunction with each other.

You might look at it this way, a person can do a lot more about over consumption than about over population. Changing the population numbers might be like trying to change the weather.

Lynnm wrote: "I've never been able to find a good book on overpopulation.

Then, you have good environmental authors - like Mark Hertsgaard in his book "Hot" - who minimize the issues with overpopulation. (He cl..."

Zero Population Growth (a non-profit) has been around for years, but it has never gained the traction of other "environmental non-profits" as far as I can tell. People have population growth, birth control and religion all tied into one box and that box needs to be emptied.

Jan - I've been a member of ZPG - which is now known as Population Connection - for many years. Great organization! I did some grassroots lobbying with them in the 90s in DC to get funding for the UN for women's issues.

And I agree about the box needing to be emptied...

Robert wrote: "You might look at it this way, a person can do a lot more about over consumption than about over population. Changing the population numbers might be like trying to change the weather."

True, but we have to try. Overpopulation is too important an issue to just give up because it is hard and controversial.

Lynnm wrote: "Jan - I've been a member of ZPG - which is now known as Population Connection - for many years. Great organization! I did some grassroots lobbying with them in the 90s in DC to get funding for the ..."
I've been a member for years too....funny though, I still think of them as ZPG. Old fogey, I guess! ;-)

Controlling population & consumption has to be connected to love your neighbor & Earth, & this
Is where & how the religions of the world can make a spiritual contribution.

James, I agree with that, but to the extent that religion is against birth control it contributes to overpopulation.

Please read the book I suggested above, the Catholic Birth Control Commission of 1965 voted To relax the traditional birth control positions of the church with a majority vote, but the Pope who started the Commisdion died & the next Pope rejected the majority vote & accepted a miniority report & vote which Recommended keeping the old traditional position because he was fearful the church would lose it's creditability. It's complicated &'you need to read the book to understand the thinking that took place. JK

I am a Catholic and had a Catholic education - K through college. I am aware of the commission in 1965. I would like to see Pope Francis address this again.

Maybe we could work on a letter-writing campaign as James I believe has suggested before.

Jimmy wrote: "Maybe we could work on a letter-writing campaign as James I believe has suggested before."
I think I missed the post about the letter writing campaign. I don't manage to see every post. Yes, that sounds like a good idea.

Who would we send our letters to? JK

Did some research on this, go to "wikihow" & type in how to address the Pope. There should be several steps & suggestions to find here. JK

I haven't read this myself, but I've heard good things through the grapevine. Anyone read this? If so, what's your opinion?

Overdevelopment, Overpopulation, Overshoot

Makes total sense. More people, more impacts on nature. It is the elephant in the room, that
No One sees, or wants to SEE!

And don't forget, more people, more customers, & more customers, more profits, & every
Corporation think tank, knows this, & plans on this, they call it GROWTH!

It is very easy to visualize, Now Serving 8 Billion.

Think what happens with globalization, international advertising, exchanging of cultures, spread of restaurants, and food. If you are an animal and 8 billion people decide they "like" you as a food, or just as a raw resource, from the moment you are born you are totally screwed in this world.

by Bill McKibben

I read Bill McKibben's Maybe One before. I have a review at the link.

Thank you for the review. Seems McKibben lays out a lot of justification not just for one child but for addressing climate change. Books like this may not be widely read hopefully they can be a building block of ideas and observations, I, for one, did have some negative ideas about only children. I know the clock is ticking and we need to get a move on. Lots of people thinking about this, some writing books like this, hopefully reaching critical mass soon.

Jimmy wrote: " by Bill McKibben

I read Bill McKibben's Maybe One before. I have a review at the link."

I didn't realize Bill McKibben had written a book on this - shame on me. :-)

It's just gone to the top of my "to read" list.

I have not read this McKibben book, but I have read a few of his other books.

He was on our board Of trustees at Paul Smith's College where I taught forestry & he wrote a nice blurb for my novel, which is on the back cover. His book, "The End of Nature" was a big wake up call. He is an excellent writer & has a perspective filled with depth.

I took a course in Wildlife Management when I was in college & a great deal of the management
In this field is with population. Wildlife populations are rarely stable, but are either decreasing or
Increasing. The wildlife students were always busy with statistics & were either trying to
Increase populations or decrease them. With humans it has been a steady increase from the
first billion in the mid 1800s to what we have now, & will have in 2050?

Most of the history of humans has been about increasing numbers to fight people
That attack our village & to have enough numbers to do the farming & to take of us when
We get old, which is still a big concern in 3rd world countries.

In Africa there is no social security, so people have large families so a few offspring survive
To take care of mom & dad when they get old. The survival rate of babies in these countries is also
Low, so having a large family is an insurance plan to have some offspring around to take care of the old.

Controlling population goes against a basic survival need in human culture, as explained above,
It goes against culture & basic needs, having kids is a natural thing to do & so it is not welcomed
with open arms, you might say it goes against nature, or a natural instinct, so it is easy
to say control population, but there is a lot of built in resistance to doing this. But, HOWEVER,
If you go into a Catholic Church on a Sunday, you will see a lot of families with just 2 kids!?
Kids are also expensive & so is college & after 2 kids, couples often evaluate the situation.

I ordered Turning Point by Robert McClory on interlibrary loan from my local library. They told me there was only one copy in the entire state of New Hampshire and that was in the state library.

It is not a popular book & it reads rather dry, but the story is there nevertheless & I'm
Glad you are reading it & I am looking forward to your comments on it. I got my copy
from Amazon. JK

As someone who is deeply concerned about climate change and the depletion of natural resources, I am embarrassed to admit that I had 5 children. I started having my kids more than 40 years ago and I have to admit I did not think about the impact on the environment. I can only hope now that what they contribute to the world will balance the scale in terms of what they take from it. Meanwhile, I had 4 college roommates and two of them had no children, so they say they have me covered - at least by the old ZPG standard of 2 kids per couple.

I keep thinking that the best way of viewing population & consumption, is from a point of view that Attempts to balance individual needs & wants with community needs & wants, & that the deciding factor in this balance has to be love, a love for self & neighbor. Neighbor needs to be
broaden to include both our human neighbor & our ecological community neighbor that supports us. It is Essentially a perspective on who we are & how we fit in with our relationships with other
humans & nature. This balance needs to come from what is inside of us, call it spirit, heart, soul,
mindfullness, etc, it is a world view thing, a view of what is good & beautiful, birth control must be on a level of love, otherwise it will fail, & this will take an evolution of the human spirit based
On insight from our minds.

It turns out my state of New Hampshire does not have a copy of Robert McClory's Turning Point anywhere in the state library system. So I will have to get creative in order to find a copy.

This book is still available on Amazon from 3rd party book dealers for a a price of 1 cent plus shipping. What a deal? Here is a copy of
One of the reviews. It is still an important book to read.

A fascinating study, written in an easy to follow and understand journalistic study, of the little know Papal Commission on Birth Control which in 1966 recommended to Paul VI by a lopsided majority that the Church reform its position banning all forms of artificial birth control. Not only did the Commission make this recommendation by it was endorsed by a solid majority of a special committee composed of bishops and cardinals selected by the Pope to review the Commission's recommendation. McClory than explains why and how this recommendation was subverted by a the minority holdouts resulting in the "reconversion" of Paul VI, who initially was favorably disposed to a change, and the issuance of Paul's encyclical which banned birth control, but which failed to stifle dissent or be honored by the faithful.

Interesting Church History...

Interesting, yes, but the world population during the commission was 3.5 billion, now it is over 7 billion with 2 more billion
Arriving in 2050. The focus of the commission was on women's health, but little focus on the carrying capacity of humans
Or the relationship between numbers of people & the ability of nature to supply the resources to support these people
in a way that is healthy to both people & nature. Are we still ignoring this carrying capacity concept?

I have ordered Overdevelopment, Overpopulation, Overshoot from Amazon. It is supposed to be here by Jan. 13.

James wrote: "Interesting, yes, but the world population during the commission was 3.5 billion, now it is over 7 billion with 2 more billion
Arriving in 2050. The focus of the commission was on women's health, b..."
I would say that we (meaning people in the US) are just beginning to think about the carrying capacity. It is an idea that is hard for people to embrace in this country because we don't really see the impact of overpopulation and lack of resources like people in some areas of the world do. But we will...eventually, and too late, I fear.

We have a TV with powerful milllion dollar commercials that are constantly telling us to buy something.
It's called capitalism & capitalism must have growth, & growth is more people. And capitalism & economics
& jobs only work if people buy products &/or services. When people get paid they go buy stuff.
And all stuff comes directly or indirectly from nature, but nature now is called natural resources. And politicians
Promise more growth & more jobs, President Reagan said be patriotic & go shopping. So where do we begin,
How do we learn to break the cycle? Our culture is based on buying & the person with the most toys, WINS. Every night
the country is told to go Buy stuff. And around & around we go. And no one wants a recession! Oh, please stop the
Merry-Go-Riund I want to get off......

Does anyone know if the carrying capacity values change if the resources are equally shared by everyone versus sanctioned hoarding of resources for personal enrichment?

If we shared everything would it all disappear that much faster?

Florence wrote: "I have ordered Overdevelopment, Overpopulation, Overshoot from Amazon. It is supposed to be here by Jan. 13."

Hope you can share with us, Florence, when you receive the book.

Robert wrote: "Does anyone know if the carrying capacity values change if the resources are equally shared by everyone versus sanctioned hoarding of resources for personal enrichment?

If we shared everything wou..."

Interesting question that I don't have the answer to but I'm sure it is out there.

The sharing economy vs. private property.

I wouldn't call it private property vs sharing. Anyone can own something. I am talking about controlling far more of something that one would ever need for practical purposes. Personally, I am tired of buying potatoes that are on the verge of sprouting, making them impossible to keep longer than a week. Or an educational system that stops at high school unless a person agrees to take out a $30,000 (or higher) bank loan in order to better their lives and those around them.

Robert, I so agree. So many grocery stores package things in quantities that a single person or a couple can not use before they go bad. Cost of higher ed is ridiculous and unfair, and so much of what it pays for is superfluous to education.

Supermarkets offering three for the price of two is now heavily discouraged here as it encourages waste. Other discount ideas like buy one, get one free or buy one, get one half price are encouraged.

You don't always have to buy 2 items for a sale price but stores like to phrase sale items as 2 for $5 hoping you don't realize you can get one for $2.50.

I can strongly recommend Countdown: Our Last Best Hope for a Future on Earth? by Alan Weisman.

It's one of the best environmental books I have read in the last couple of years.

Radiantflux,
What is the premise of it?
Jan

Radiantflux,
Hi again! You made me curious enough that I followed the link and read about it on Goodreads. I read some of the reviews and one by Caroline, May 20, 2015 has a "spoilers' section that is a wealth of information and that give a real feel for the book. I haven't read the book yet, but it sounds like it is well worth reading. I have added it to my list. Thanks for the recommendation.

I ordered a used copy of Overdevelopment, Overpopulation, Overshoot and it came Saturday. I didn't realize that it was a large coffee table book. Very big and very heavy. Huge pictures of masses of people, of horizon to horizon mechanized farming, crowded streets, filthy water, plastic rubbish, etc. Makes the introvert in me slam the book shut just to get away from the masses of humanity. It also spurred me to send a check to Planned Parenthood.