Grimdark Fantasy discussion

If you like great prose, and are talking about the Map of Time series by Felix J Palma, that gets my personal vote.

And no, IMO, Wheel of Time does not get less juvenile.

If you like good prose, go for the malazan series. After a song of ice and fire, my new favorite. The beginning is a challenge , but you shall be rewarded.

I haven't read it yet myself, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody say anything bad about the Malazan series. It's high on my to-read list.

I love ASOIAF and Malazan but you don't want to read those at the same time. Malazan has 10X the characters to remember and is much more complicated.

Mistborn is also very YA but I enjoyed it. Easy read and not overly complicated but a good world.

Divine Cities I've only read book one but it was good and not over complicated. It is more of an Urban Fantasy piece with a bit of spy and espionage mixed in.

First Law is fun and easy to read. It's definitely GrimDark with a good caustic humor if that's your thing.

Definitely do Malazan as it's my favorite but I just wouldn't do it with another complicated series.

First Law and Divine Cities 100% Yes
Try Gentleman Bastards Sequence too. A bit on the lighter side but not YA.
And Worldbreaker Saga (Kameron Hurley) for great worldbuilding and strong grey characters from all kinds of gender roles.
I also HIGHLY recommend The Fifth Season by NK Jemisin, I forgot the series name sorry.
For traditional fantasy maybe try Farseer Trilogy and the rest of Realm of the Elderling series by Robin Hobb. Mostly coming of age stories but I would not categorize them as YA.

Forgot to mention The Black Company trilogy (and the rest of the series) by Glen Cook. Quintessential grimdark!

Or "The Faithful and the fallen" series by John Gwynne. I just finished Wrath and it is great!

You can't go wrong with any of those! Also add to that When the Heavens Fall and sequels by Marc Turner.

I'll add "The Dagger & The Coin" series by Daniel Abraham (starts with The Dragon's Path). It's grown-up and complex, while still being accessible.

The Emperor's Blades - not Grimdark, not YA. :) And bonus for being a complete series!

I would agree with Scott, personally I rate Malazan as the best fantasy I read. But reading that one in combination with ASOIAF is really really challenging. For dark I second the First Law and the Black company series, I found the Emperor's Blades (Unhewn Trone) book 1 a little ya but it really turned dark in book 2 and 3. Furthermore I would like to add Raven's Shadow (Anthony Ryan), and Bloodsounder's Arc (Jeff Salyards)

For more traditional fantasy: Memory, Sorrow and Thorn (Tad Williams) and Riftwar (Feist)

Alternative for Mistborn, try Powder Mage trilogy (Brian McClellan). cool magic system, actionpacked, great characters.

I have not read Stormlight Archive by Sanderson though

Silvana wrote: "First Law and Divine Cities 100% Yes
Try Gentleman Bastards Sequence too. A bit on the lighter side but not YA.
And Worldbreaker Saga (Kameron Hurley) for great worldbuilding and strong grey charac..."
Yes, I just listened to the Fifth Season and thought it was extremely creative and very different from any other SciFi I've yet read

Scott wrote: "I love ASOIAF and Malazan but you don't want to read those at the same time. Malazan has 10X the characters to remember and is much more complicated.

Mistborn is also very YA but I enjoyed it. Ea..."I want to get into Malazan but haven't been able to get into it even after listening to the first 3 hours twice!

Levi wrote: "I'll add "The Dagger & The Coin" series by Daniel Abraham (starts with The Dragon's Path). It's grown-up and complex, while still being accessible."
Just FYI earlier this year he dropped a fifth book in the series The Spider's War, it was excellent. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

I read the chapter review in the malazan group on GR everytime i've finished one. These guys are second time readers. Really helps alot!

I have heard a lot of times that Malazan is very complex and confusing. It might be difficult in an audio format.

I can't really see Emperor's Blades as all that YA. Are you sure you've read true YA lately? It's horrible stuff!

Please don't read Malazan alongside ASOIAF. After 3 false starts over many months, I've finally gone more than halfway with Gardens of the Moon because I gave it undivided attention. You might want to read Emperor's Blade though.

To the original question, WoT does indeed get less juvenile but it will never be on the dark end of the fantasy spectrum. My impression of book one was a resounding "meh" until the last 50 pages, but by books 2-3 I was completely engaged. The use of non-human villains decreases as the series goes on, which to me was a very good thing.

WRT the other series you mentioned, LotR wasn't very enjoyable to me and I haven't read Malazan yet. But Mistborn (fun, action-packed), Divine Cities (philosophical/theological tie-ins), and First Law (dark and well-paced) are all among my favorites for differing reasons. Whoever is giving you reading advice has good taste! Each of those three are on my shortlist of series I recommend to people wanting to get into fantasy.

Does First Law get more interesting going into it? I read the first book and it felt so cliche grim dark. Does more magic come into it?

Yes. But more chopping, slashing and bashing

Not sure I'm a true Grimdark fan, honestly. That kinda stuff gets boring to me. But, I like you all so much better than my fantasy book club!

Heather wrote: "I have heard a lot of times that Malazan is very complex and confusing. It might be difficult in an audio format.

I can't really see Emperor's Blades as all that YA. Are you sure you've read true ..."

Only the first book is quite YAish in some parts. I think it's because it's more like coming of age thing with lots of angst? Second book you see the characters growing with their decision making and inner thoughts. Valyn especially.

But still far more readable than complete trash like Throne of Glass and its ilks.

The Stormlight Archive is quality gateway fantasy and highly recommended though not something I'd necessarily read alongside another huge epic. Go with Mistborn or First Law. Both are quick and simple.

Many good suggestions - my two cents:

First Law series - definitely on the darker grittier side but awesome characters. Go there first.

Lies of Locke Lamorra (Gentleman Bastards) - rollicking fun.

Black Company - very enjoyable, grimdark but the squad humor and interaction is fun.

Night Angel trilogy by Brent Weeks - if you like assassins (which I do!)

Vlad Taltos series (starting with Jhereg) by Steven Brust - I think this series/author is often overlooked, but I have thoroughly enjoyed all of this series. Shorter books, lighter tone in general with much humor but good character development over the series. Vlad is my favorite assassin - a good snarky character that will put a dagger in your eye

Malazan - okay, I'm going to say NOT to read this yet. It is my all time favorite series. I don't want this to come out wrong, but it is not for the uninitiated. It is probably the most heavy obtuse series with a cast of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of years of history, many races, and a story that is not explained. You are just dropped in with no kindly wizard explaining everything around the fire... I have read fantasy for 30+ years, and half way through the first book I was like wtf is going on? So read all the above first, and then sink your teeth into Malazan.