Support for Indie Authors discussion

Trying to get my debut self published novel out to the UK and US market as a paperback. I was wondering if any of you had some experience regarding the pros and cons of Ingram Spark v Createspace or any others.
Best

Luke

I've never used Ingram Spark, but all of my experiences with Createspace have been positive. It's quite user friendly, it's free (there are paid options, but you don't have to use them), and the customer service is outstanding.

J.D. wrote: "I've never used Ingram Spark, but all of my experiences with Createspace have been positive. It's quite user friendly, it's free (there are paid options, but you don't have to use them), and the cu..."

Thanks. I will have a closer look at what they offer too as i was hoping to stock books at the amazon fulfilment centres as well.

CreateSpace is owned by Amazon (and Amazon's own KDP is toying with offering paperback print-on-demand services... but it's a barebones beta right now and you'd be better off sticking with CreateSpace).

I was just going to ask this very question.

I haven't released yet and I printed some copies through Lulu in order to set up a giveaway here. No real issues with Lulu, however, they don't do pre-orders and their list pricing is really high. Like $17.99 for a paperback if I want to make no more than $1 per title on retailer sites other than Lulu. I can discount it on Lulu down to $12 and change, but that's only if purchased through Lulu.

So now I'm toying with Ingram Spark, which can do pre-orders, and who will give me a $9.99 cover price, but I need Adobe InDesign to upload. Right now I'm completely through Word. I have an InDesign trial and trying to figure out how to import from Word into InDesign and not completely ruin all my formatting is proving difficult. If anyone has any advice on that or can point me to any tutorials I'll love you forever.

I've heard CreateSpace is kind of the go-to for self-pubs, but I'm still bucking against Amazon a little and trying not to use them if I can help it beyond listing a Kindle version directly with them.

Is there anything else worth trying?

As far as I know, CreateSpace, Lulu, and Ingram Spark are the biggies.

Christine wrote: "Createspace (CS) do print on demand, so someone buys your book and CS print it; you pay nothing up front.

If someone buys your book for a sale price (whatever that is), CS takesaround £2.50 from ..."

J.D. wrote: "I've never used Ingram Spark, but all of my experiences with Createspace have been positive. It's quite user friendly, it's free (there are paid options, but you don't have to use them), and the cu..."

I'm just embarking on a paperback version of my novel with Createspace. Just waiting for a sample of the paper etc through the post. Apparently you can't get your book into uk bookshops with a CS ISBN because they are American. If that matters to you. Anyway I bought my own...

We have paperbacks with both Ingram and Createspace. Ingram offers us a hardcover option for our children's books. So we have a paperback, kindle, hardcover and audio version of each children's book available.

Ben wrote: "We have paperbacks with both Ingram and Createspace. Ingram offers us a hardcover option for our children's books. So we have a paperback, kindle, hardcover and audio version of each children's boo..."

For Ingram, did you design directly in one of their approved design software programs (like InDesign) or did you have to import? I'm already formatted through Word and trying to import into InDesign is making my head spin. Aside from the hardcover option, which printer do you like better?

I did a coloring book for adults through both CreateSpace and IngramSpark because the book is in a format (8.5"x8.5") that CreateSpace won't distribute beyond Amazon. I found IngramSpark a little less intuitive than CreateSpace, and the customer support was much less responsive, but the print quality was a little better, and I think their distribution is probably more extensive (though I don't know for sure). There was no problem with doing both, and except for the cover, which I had to format differently for IngramSpark, there was no problem using the same files for both platforms.

If you do use both, I suggest you work out the kinks in CreateSpace, since re-uploads are free, then print the final version on both platforms using the same ISBN.

You aren't supposed to use the same ISBN for two different versions of the same book. It would cause a problem, especially if you used the same ISBN for Createspace's global distribution because that is done through Ingram... so there would be some confusion there, for sure.

Really, deciding on what you want out of the printer will dictate which printer to go with. If your goal is to get into more bookstores, then you'll have to use Ingram because Createspace's retailer discount is too low and the books are not returnable.

Ingram is a little harder to use, but I didn't find it that difficult. You don't need to use InDesign either. If you convert your word file to the right type of PDF, there aren't any issues with their uploader.

I like both CS and Ingram for different reasons. I wouldn't say that one is better than the other... they both have advantages and disadvantages. When I started exploring Ingram, I decided to have books on both using different ISBNs.

I used Ingram but got a designer to do the files, I think it's pdf that you upload on Ingram afterwards.

For the book stores : yes Ingram proposes a return option and two discount options...BUT, here in Australia ( and it's printed in Australia): the author will be charged for the returns shipment from the bookstore to Ingram and the books will not be physically returned to the author but destroyed. So basically, this option could end up costing you a lot.
I am totally against the idea of destroying books.

Our writers group used Blurb, which I believe is a discount stepchild of Ingram Spark. We published through Blurb and then used Blurb's Ingram connections to offer the book across to all online and physical book retailers, including Amazon. There were a few glitches getting Amazon Kindle to accept our decision, as they wanted everything to go through Createspace (understandably). Blurb offers promotions often, watch for them. One of our authors did have an issue with Createspace POD involving multiple copies of her book, each book printed (in the same order) lost a fraction of an inch off the right margin, eventually cutting off part of the cover image and the inside page's right margins entirely. Individual copies ordered looked great which is wierd. She switched POD printers when it couldn't get resolved after several orders.

Patrick, just curious by your comment "There were a few glitches getting Amazon Kindle to accept our decision, as they wanted everything to go through Createspace (understandably)." Can you elaborate what those "glitches" were? I'm getting ready to launch my first book and we're leaning toward KDP for the digital and another source for the POD. Thank you!

I'm still wrapping my head around distribution but my understanding is that Createspace is essentially Amazon only, and predominantly about US distribution. Which seems to be quite limiting. Whereas Ingram are much more widespread in terms of other providers around the world who they distrbute too. I've gone with both Createspace and Ingram, as I really don't like the idea of all my eggs in Amazon's basket.
But, as I said, I'm still trying to work out where my book is getting too. Got to say, so far, that Ingram's site is far less easy to navigate - but I'm guessing that comes from the fact they are far more complex in nature than Createspace.
On a side note - Amazon are aiming to discontinue Createspace altogether aren't they? And have it all inhouse with KDP?

I read that, too, about Createspace being transitioned out and everything over to KDP, Danielle. And your not wanting to put all your eggs into the Amazon basket is the exact same reason why we're splitting up the various aspects of the book; KDP for digital, we're leaning toward Outskirts Press (Denver) for hardcopy, and Ingram for the distribution. Of course, the part I dread the most (marketing) will be up to us. Just wondering if Patrick's experience is shared and more authors are having some problems with Amazon when they outsource to a different vendor vs. Createspace.

Erica wrote: "Patrick, just curious by your comment "There were a few glitches getting Amazon Kindle to accept our decision, as they wanted everything to go through Createspace (understandably)." Can you elabora..."
I was trying not to be too negative... Amazon makes you jump through a bunch of hoops to get around Createspace, one has to work through each screen as they repeatedly are trying to get you to use Createspace. Once done, the information they post is somewhat convoluted, authors dropped or mixed up with editors and publishers (we had the word "Editor" listed as an author). We had to as well work at getting them to link the eBook to the print edition and have them both read the same. I will say, they worked with us to correct the details, but it took several emails and a week or so to finally get it right. We used Smashwords for the eBook, offers multiple formats and coupons for give-a-ways. It's my understanding that Amazon doesn't allow reviews from individuals receiving an Amazon/Kindle freebie or give-a-way.

Thanks, Patrick. The additional details are very helpful.

Dylan wrote: "Ingram is a little harder to use, but I didn't find it that difficult. You don't need to use InDesign either. If you convert your word file to the right type of PDF, there aren't any issues with their uploader."

That's where I'm running into problems. My Word for Mac doesn't have the correct PDF option to convert to so my files get rejected. After researching it it looks like that's just Word for Mac. It just doesn't have the options I need.

As for Createspace, do they only distribute print editions through Amazon or are they through all online retailers? I know they're exclusive for ebooks, which is why I'm through Smashwords and then direct to Amazon for eBook. But if even paperback is exclusive to Amazon I'll probably just stick with Lulu and be done with it.

Donna wrote: "Dylan wrote: "Ingram is a little harder to use, but I didn't find it that difficult. You don't need to use InDesign either. If you convert your word file to the right type of PDF, there aren't any ..."

Createspace does distribute print through online retailers if you want them to. You select your distribution options. I selected amazon and expanded distribution so my books are available through many online retailers and many bookstores such as Barnes and Noble (online only). You make a significantly lower royalty if you sell through someone other than Amazon though. Createspace has some great videos on their website if you want to learn more.

CS's extended distribution is okay. There just aren't any discount / return options to selec, that physical bookstores would find attractive. But their "academic" option does include B&T, so that is a plus.

Donna, I think it's a PDF/A file that you need, right? Maybe this will be helpful? https://gradstudents.carleton.ca/thes...

It looks like what I had to do with the Windows version of Word.

I used BookBaby's self-publishing services for my e-book version and was quite happy with the service I got. I haven't launched in print yet, but I know they offer the distribution and even POD of you don't want to order in bulk always.

That's all I know as, again, I haven't been ready to pull a trigger and thus not researched all my options. But do check it out as a possibility. One thing is for sure, BookBaby never makes you feel like you're alone in the business. I have always gotten incredibly friendly and prompt support when I needed it.

I've only published one ebook on Amazon and all the ones Smashwords sends to. I've just logged on to KDP to check my categories (erotica and sci-fi) I swear this wasn't there the last time I checked-I now have the option to "Create Paperback"

I'm reading about it and it seems it's just print on demand and they take a cut to cover the printing costs.

1. Have I got that right?
2. Should I bother? (Major crisis of faith going on despite favourable feedback from friends)

Thanks.

KDPs paperback print on demand thing:

Black ink with 110-828 pages printing costs are:
£0.70 per book plus
£0.010 per page

And then you get 60% royalties. So really if a book was priced at £4.99 and it was 300 pages long (no idea how long it is in paperback or how much it should be priced at) I'd end up with 51.6p royalties were paperback sold. That's, um, not as much as I had hoped. Bearing in mind I can count on two hands the number of ebooks I've sold!

4.99 is low for a 300 page paperback book. You would likely sell for a minimum of 9.99

We used Blurb for print and they connected us to Ingram. Ingram sent it out to everyone, including Amazon that listed it as POD print edition and offered it with Prime (free delivery 2 days) and Amazon priced the book at our established retail. Amazon orders through Blurb/Ingram and it ships as Amazon (we get wholesale $$ from Blurb/Ingram, Amazon keeps whatever they can sell it for). The difference is royalty, but the nice thing is we have one POD printer nationally/internationally and we're in Blurb/Ingrams wholesale catalogue. We have eBooks through Smashwords in all formats, but we as well set it up and offering the e-Book through Amazon/Kindle separately. It's easier to stay with one printer/ebook distributor to make and track any promotional changes. You get a few different POD printers, eBook distributors you have to notify them all of temporary sales changes.

C.L. wrote: "4.99 is low for a 300 page paperback book. You would likely sell for a minimum of 9.99"

Are you in $ or £? I'm in £, currently buying paperbacks with a seemingly infinite number of pages for anywhere between £5 and say about £7

Thanks everyone. I am distilling all the information but have to say that my key aim is to get a book out to the market where perhaps I could make $1 per book and more importantly not price the book out of the market. So far with POD as a self publisher I have found that the book will have to be priced at about $15 USD for me to make $1. ( This is assuming a book stockist takes 50% of the rake. Namely I would sell it to a book seller at $7.50).
I still think $15 USD is too high for a first time author.
Has anyone worked with parties which offer print and fulfilment services for say a 1000 book print run.

My quote for a run of 1,000 was £3 a book. My quote for POD was £4.60 a book. This was through a third party who would set everything up, (copy,typesetting, e-book etc for £1,400) He read and enjoyed my novel, couldn't get Oneworld to publish it and offered to help me out...
I'm trying to become visible with a second novel which I published as an e.book through kdp and am now considering my options for a paperback...Sam McColl

Sam wrote: "My quote for a run of 1,000 was £3 a book. My quote for POD was £4.60 a book. This was through a third party who would set everything up, (copy,typesetting, e-book etc for £1,400) He read and enjoy..."

Sam I am struggling to find anyone interested in the Uk and US who will do a print and fulfilment £3 a book is very workable for me as I currently have a print run done in India but it costs about $6AUD to ship each book in bulk. Even £4.60 a book is workable but i would expect there would be additional shipping costs for books to outlets or fulfilment centres. What did your book retail for and did it sell well?
My questions are more related to not pricing a book out of the market. I am also concerned with returns based on the quality of the print and who takes the costs for these. Would you be open to share the print contacts for the 1000 run. Thanks in advance.

I haven't taken up the offer yet. And I m not sure if it was a favour to me because the publisher liked my work. Let me chat to Sam (another sam) and get back to you. Are we permitted to share email?

Amy wrote: "C.L. wrote: "4.99 is low for a 300 page paperback book. You would likely sell for a minimum of 9.99"

Are you in $ or £? I'm in £, currently buying paperbacks with a seemingly infinite number of pa..."

£4.99 is currently $6.10 USD. That's REALLY cheap for even an eBook by an established author. For a new paperback it's practically a giveaway.

For most self-published authors you will see the bulk of your sales in eBooks. A very few authors get more physical book sales than eBooks, but the vast majority sell very few paperbacks. So you end up with the choice of either not getting much in royalties ... or pricing them to make a decent profit and having to up the sales price.

I haven't done physical books yet but when I do, I'm going to opt for the latter.

Amy wrote: "I've only published one ebook on Amazon and all the ones Smashwords sends to. I've just logged on to KDP to check my categories (erotica and sci-fi) I swear this wasn't there the last time I checke..."

Hi Amy, the print on demand option for KDP is very new, like basically weeks old, and is still in beta form really, from what I've heard. I suspect it is because Amazon plan to get rid of CreateSpace and are doing it all in house. I've just released a YA and I've used Createspace for print for Amazon, and Ingramspark for all other distribution of print. Have to say CS have been awesome, very straightforward, whereas I'm still finding Ingramspark's structure and reports etc, a bit tricky to get my head around.

Hi, I'm hoping to publish my poetry collection on CreateSpace as POD sometime this year and would like some advice on book sizes and fonts. Is there a particular size that works better on CS or what should I go with, 5.5x8.5 inches or 6x9 inches? I'm not sure what margin sizes to use either. What fonts work well for poetry and the point sizes for text and headings, or does CreateSpace have their own?
Also I understand from the discussion that CS will no longer be available. What's a better option? Thanks, x

Gosh over here people tell me they wouldn't buy an ebook
if it was over £3. A lot of people told me before I published that they'd only download free books. Others said 99p only. Amazon suggested the price below £3 based on their beta thing that suggests prices. But then I've only just published my first so I'm hardly established.

Shirani wrote: "Hi, I'm hoping to publish my poetry collection on CreateSpace as POD sometime this year and would like some advice on book sizes and fonts. Is there a particular size that works better on CS or wha..."
I don't think CS is going away that fast and if they did... with the volume of books they POD, it would make smart sense to transfer everything over to whatever/wherever program/venue they replace CS with. I've never published poetry, but I have seen several different looks/fonts depending on length, style, and visual objective if art/images are involved. Don't know if CS does children's books , but a children's book printer would do any font/art/images.

Shirani wrote: "Hi, I'm hoping to publish my poetry collection on CreateSpace as POD sometime this year and would like some advice on book sizes and fonts. Is there a particular size that works better on CS or wha..."

If CreateSpace is going away, it won't be for a while. When I did a poetry book I used the 6" by 9" size, since for a 50 page book it costs only about $2.50 to print one. That's not bad, really. As for fonts, you can really use anything you want. You'll be doing all your formatting in some software, like Word or Libre Office, and convert it to a PDF.

So you can really use anything. For poetry, I've found 11 or 12 point works well, but your mileage may vary. You might want to make a sample sheet of different fonts at different sizes, and look at poetry books you already have to see what they use.

CreateSpace doesn't tell you what to use as far as fonts go, that's all you.

I had positive experience with CreateSpace. their services were prompt and professional; however, they are somewhat pricey. My book is a travel memoir, only 124 pages, in which I wanted to include several color photos. The minimum price per copy I was allowed to set was close to $16.00 without royalties.

Ha ha... I'm reading this and...feeling screwed! At 465 pages I'm in heaps of trouble. I'm gonna need a miracle or a big fat tax return to buy bulk books.

I'll need to buy 1,000 to get where I'm not burying myself with my wallet every time someone wants a printed book!

Amie wrote: "Ha ha... I'm reading this and...feeling screwed! At 465 pages I'm in heaps of trouble. I'm gonna need a miracle or a big fat tax return to buy bulk books.

I'll need to buy 1,000 to get where I'm ..."
Be good if we could get any insights on the 1000 book print run costs and fulfilment as there seems to be a genuine need for this. I would love to find options for this in the US and UK.
Shipping books in bulk across the globe is an expensive option and probably more costly than printing the books itself. Further unless the printer is connected with the fulfilment, you will have a lot of issues with the replacement or returned books which may be required from time to time.
I guess this must be a no brainer but I am a first time writer and have learnt that you must print the book in the country of sale. (Except Australia where I have been advised it is cheaper to print in bulk in Singapore).

We printed 200 books, 288 pages, delivered from Blurb for under $5 a book (but you have to catch their 40% off promo). We figured 104 books as the minimum to keep it under $5. However, it cost us $2.61 per book to mail US nationwide via USPS to deliver to the buyer. It's a lot easier with POD from Blurb using Amazon Prime delivered and B&N free delivery. We make more buying and shipping the book ourselves, but the convenience and time for Amazon/B&N/Blurb to do it in our eyes is worth the difference as we all have full time jobs and families. And Ingram handles everything Internationally through wholesalers.

Patrick wrote: "Shirani wrote: "Hi, I'm hoping to publish my poetry collection on CreateSpace as POD sometime this year and would like some advice on book sizes and fonts. Is there a particular size that works bet..."
Thanks Patrick, CS would definitely have to find an alternative platform for all their PODs. But the discussion had me worried.

Rohvannyn wrote: "Shirani wrote: "Hi, I'm hoping to publish my poetry collection on CreateSpace as POD sometime this year and would like some advice on book sizes and fonts. Is there a particular size that works bet..."
Thanks Rohvannyn, I've been hearing a lot about 6x9 being a good size and you have convinced me too. I have about 130 pages in all and I'll have to get someone to check the formatting for me.
I've been working on 11 pt font but some poetry books seem to have such tiny fonts. I think they use 9 or 10 which looks good on the page but is a little hard on the eye.

Hi Shirani. You were also not sure about margins etc. If you decide on a size (I prefer 5,25 x 8) and click on that format you get a sample file from CS with all margins etc pre-set. All you do is cut the copy that they have in there and paste your file in there or start typing.
64 pages soft cover retail at 6,99 gives me 2.02 royalty.

Dylan wrote: "CS's extended distribution is okay. There just aren't any discount / return options to selec, that physical bookstores would find attractive. But their "academic" option does include B&T, so that i..."

Thanks, but I have a Mac and that sad little paragraph at the end applies to me. Although I did just have a lightning bolt strike my head. I have Google Drive and a PC laptop. I can just try it through there and see if it works.

Donna wrote: "Dylan wrote: "CS's extended distribution is okay. There just aren't any discount / return options to selec, that physical bookstores would find attractive. But their "academic" option does include ..."

Good luck! If it doesn't work, I'd be happy to do it for you on my PC. It's so much easier than using Adobe for that job.

Luke wrote: "Sam wrote: "My quote for a run of 1,000 was £3 a book. My quote for POD was £4.60 a book. This was through a third party who would set everything up, (copy,typesetting, e-book etc for £1,400) He re..."

Luke, if you email me I can give you print details. I've been researching and I've been quotes 1000 paperbacks of 330 pages at £1 a book. Cream paper, inkjet. 5x8

I have had great results with Creat Space. I have had 5 books printed with them and have no complaints. My orders have always been on time, make proof available and always have had good product from them. Highly recommend them.

Dylan wrote: "You aren't supposed to use the same ISBN for two different versions of the same book. It would cause a problem, especially if you used the same ISBN for Createspace's global distribution because that is done through Ingram... so there would be some confusion there, for sure.

Really, deciding on what you want out of the printer will dictate which printer to go with. If your goal is to get into more bookstores, then you'll have to use Ingram because Createspace's retailer discount is too low and the books are not returnable."

I have to make a comment on this. You are not supposed to use the same ISBN for two different versions of the same book provided that they are different. You CAN use the same ISBN on both CreateSpace and IngramSpark if the book size, cover, etc is the same, but with a caveat: You must NEVER mark the "Expanded Distribution" in CreateSpace.

The reason for this is that CreateSpace uses Ingram for its expanded distribution. The moment that you tick the "Expanded Distribution" box in CreateSpace and save it, Ingram's database is updated and you can no longer use it. Unticking the box will not solve the issue - it will be too late.

The trick is to publish the book in Ingramspark and Createspace at the same time. Provided that you never tick the "Expanded Distribution" box, you should have the benefits of distributing in both.

OK, went with CS for my paperback.
They make your book "available to" stores (not that they'll know that if you don't tell the stores yourself).

Expanded distribution is their best option.
Your book will go on Ingram too.

HOWEVER, if you want UK bookstores to stock your book forget it.
UK readers can order via Amazon.co.uk but book buyers won't be able to buy wholesale in the UK. They want a UK distributor (understandably) but Amazon don't share.
Even author copies are printed in the US.
Only readers on Amazon UK get their books get their books from the UK. ;-(