J.R.R. Tolkien discussion

Regardless of what their actual relationship is, I think that at its base these two are the best of friends. Whether or not their relationship is platonic or more than that, we as readers are certainly not given specifics on. As a heterosexual male, I certainly have friendships with other men that if put under the strain of extreme outside events I would assume would certainly resemble the relationship that we see between Frodo and Sam. Does this reveal a homo-erotic tone (not that it would be a bad thing if it did)? I certainly don't think so. Going through stressful situations together (even in examples such as sports) leads to individuals bonding in a way that transcends the normal bonds of friendship and builds a deeper trust and understanding with one another that some looking in from the outside could read as a romantic involvement.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Frodo and Sam have an officer-batman style of relationship, especially given Tolkien's experiences in WWI, which was the last war in which the myth of the noble aristocratic warrior (British officer) on a quest, with the full-hearted support of his solid British subordinate(s), really existed. As transmuted by popular literature, that relationship is characterized by intense nobility and honour (and often a kind of delicate vulnerability) on the side of the aristocrat/officer and intense loyalty on the part of the lower-class servant/subordinate, and an enormous capacity for self-sacrifice from both sides; this forms a kind of relationship where the intimacy can be similar in strength to a romantic one, but sexuality itself is out of the frame not just because of the value system of the two men (or at least the acknowledged one) but also because of the class difference. It's a "bromance" but they're not quite "bros". When I re-read the Rings as an adult (I first read it as a child), I was forcibly reminded of the very overheated depiction of this kind of master-man loyalty in the 19th-century romantic novel, "Under Two Flags" by Ouida (subsequently made into at least one movie), where the batman heroically allows his life to slip away on a long desert journey rather than allow his master's safety to be compromised. But for a lighter treatment of the same theme, how about Bunter and Lord Peter Wimsey, especially in the early novels, where you see all sorts of evidence that somewhat-damaged Peter is heavily reliant on ferociously-loyal Bunter, who was - yes - his batman in the war.

Hope that helps with your paper. :) I'm sure you can find many other examples - those were just the ones that came quickly to mind.

A literary analogy to me would be the kind of frienship between Don Quixote and Sancho.

Surreysmum wrote: "I think it's reasonable to assume that Frodo and Sam have an officer-batman style of relationship, especially given Tolkien's experiences in WWI, which was the last war in which the myth of the nob..."

I came here to say something like this, but you put it so much better than I could have done! I'm not sure whether John Garth's "Tolkien and the Great War" addresses the Frodo-Sam relationship. It's my go-to for anything on Tolkien's experiences on the Western Front, but it's a hard read. But I think it's in the Letters that JRRT explicitly states that Sam is the hero of LotR, and that must surely come from his experiences in the trenches.

I don't think there's the remotest chance in the world that Tolkien intended a homo-erotic relationship between Frodo and Sam. I've always thought it quite sad that people tend to ignore the complexities of their relationship - master/servant, friends, people who have known each other all their lives, coming from different classes, who go through an extraordinary adventure together, saving each other's lives repeatedly (though Sam is the hero of the book) - in favor of the comparatively facile "there must be nookie".

My wife and I have been watching The Hobbit on the screen, and this came up in our post-viewing conversation! It brought to mind the long-standing English tradition of the lifelong confirmed bachelor which actually wasn't just another "beard" tag. I appreciate the military mention, also. It's really so recent that our societal roles have even softened up enough for fathers to express love with their kids or share emotion with other men. We know that during Tolkien's day, women's life roles were tightly restricted in all situations but a few courageous women were already fighting the good fight. At first I was annoyed with the Tauriel character the film makers added to the Hobbit tale, but based on my conversation with my wife, Tauriel -- a courageous, repressed female character actually makes a lot of sense. I think JRRT would have written her in if he had written the books closer to our time. I'm still not completely in with her relationship with Kili, but... maybe....

From Frodos point of view I feel he has always treated Sam as an equal and worthy companion.

However Sam always felt Frodo as his master. One whom he cannot leave at any cost.
No doubt he loved Frodo but I don't think he considered Frodo as his equal.

I love Frodo and Sams relationship, but I think it's really different in the books and films. In the books Sam is much much younger than Frodo and is treated as his servant, even though they're friends. In the films Sam looks about the same age as Frodo and nobody really looks down on him, and Frodo treats him as an equal so I think I prefer the film relationship but I like Sams character in the book more.

And @MarinaQuinzel I like Tauriel even though I'm not sure about the Legolas Tauriel Kili love triangle. Also you said strong female characters are rare in Tolkien's work and I thought that was true as well but there are quite a few, like Eowyn, Luthien, Aredhel, Melian, Galadriel, Elwing, all the female Valar and so many more.

MarinaQuinzel wrote: "Richard wrote: "My wife and I have been watching The Hobbit on the screen, and this came up in our post-viewing conversation! It brought to mind the long-standing English tradition of the lifelong ..."Tolkien was so analytical of human behavior, I've always felt that his lack of developed female characters was an outgrowth of the times he grew up in.

Sam has indeed been described as Frodo's batman by various critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_...

I think the exchange, towards the end of the quest to Mordor, where Sam tells him, "I can't carry it, but I can carry you." is the most expressive of their relationship. Sam constantly evolves towards a stalwart, unshakeable strength while Frodo almost dissolves in the face of the power of evil. After the elves and ring-bearers depart for Valinor, Sam returns home, where it became clear to me that Tolkien wrote the entire saga about Sam and about the strength of simple, honest good folks.

I think the word "fellowship" is key to the books. No one person could have defeated the evil of Sauron (and however you want to interpret that in the real world), but the strength of people loving and working together can overcome and redeem.

Michael wrote: "I think the word "fellowship" is key to the books. No one person could have defeated the evil of Sauron (and however you want to interpret that in the real world), but the strength of people loving..." Yes, exactly. It parallels Tolkien's hope for the future after the horrors of the War to End All Wars. Too bad that wasn't the end of them...

There is a zero chance that Tolkien intended the relationship of Sam and Frodo to ever be a romantic love. Earlier postings about the military angle seem to be a much more appropriate analogy, and it is true to real-world experiences. I do not know that I agree about the officer-batman comparison, as I think that most officers would have tried their subordinates differently than Frodo did with Sam. You can definitely see the class distinctions (most notably in the language each character uses), but that is fairly representative of British society for centuries. I think from a purely survival instinct, it was important for Sam to focus on getting Frodo to his end goal rather than focusing on his own needs or perils along the way. In some sense it makes the burden easier to carry. There are many heroic deeds performed by strong characters throughout LOTR, but I agree that Sam is the heart of the story in many respects.

Personally I have never understood the claim that Tolkien does not have strong female characters. Physical prowess is not the only (or necessarily the most important) strength a person can possess. All one needs to do is read the Beren & Luthien story to understand that concept. And yes, it would have been nice if Aragon and Arwen had a bigger role in the main storyline, but I think at the end of the day you have to realize it wasn't their story that was being told. IMO a lot of Tolkien criticisms is very one-dimensional, and is likely expounded by people who have never read his work.

Tara,

I absolutely love your second paragraph here (the first paragraph was good, too). Very well said. It's very common to hear people complaining about "not enough strong women" in Tolkien's books, and it is so refreshing to see somebody intelligently refuting that. Thank you :)

In the books Sam is much much younger than Frodo and is treated as his servant, even though they're friends

No. They may be friends, but Sam is considered to be of the lower class, and it seeps through in many ways, such as he is not introduced as Mr. or Master, but just Sam Gamgee, while Pippin, Merry, or Frodo are Mr/Master. So Frodo is a lord (as far as hobbits can be lords) while Sam is a peasant

I think Merry and Pippin are, or will be, lords. Frodo is a bourgeois/burgher/burglar - landed gentry at best.

Sam is a highly skilled gardener, and as Frodo says to Galadriel, gardeners are held in high honour in the Shire. If looking for RL parallels, I'd think of the three generations of head gardeners at Bodnant in Wales, or Joseph Paxton, who was the Duke of Devonshire's head gardener and best friend in the 19th century, and who became a knight and an MP. So Sam, while not one of the landed classes, is a highly-respected employee of the Bagginses.

The British class system is weird.