Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Discussion Leader is ❀✿ Gem ✿❀

I read it long time ago. I liked. Even who doesn't read it know about Liliput, at least the general meaning.

Rafael wrote: "I read it long time ago. I liked. Even who doesn't read it know about Liliput, at least the general meaning."
Don't be so sure... this is the first I've heard of Liliput!

This novel was published anonymously in 1726 as Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World and is a satire. (I'm sorry to say that the satirical aspect of this read will very likely go over my head... I'm extremely literal, so in the course of the discussion please feel free to point anything out that I've missed.)

There is a link to a quiz about Gulliver's Travels. Have fun!

The satire is over the top in this book and some is very exaggerated.

Prologue and Part 1: A Voyage to Lilliput

The travel begins with a short prologue in which Lemuel Gulliver gives a brief outline of his life and history before his voyages.

During his first voyage, Gulliver is washed ashore after a shipwreck and finds himself a prisoner of a race of tiny people, less than 6 inches (0.50 ft) tall, who are inhabitants of the island country of Lilliput. After giving assurances of his good behavior, he is given a residence in Lilliput and becomes a favorite of the Lilliput Royal Court. He is also given permission by the King of Lilliput to go around the city on condition that he must not harm their subjects.

At first, the Lilliputians are hospitable to Gulliver, but they are also wary of the threat that his size poses to them. The Lilliputians reveal themselves to be a people who put great emphasis on trivial matters. For example, which end of an egg a person cracks becomes the basis of a deep political rift within that nation. They are a people who revel in displays of authority and performances of power. Gulliver assists the Lilliputians to subdue their neighbors the Blefuscudians by stealing their fleet. However, he refuses to reduce the island nation of Blefuscu to a province of Lilliput, displeasing the King and the royal court.

Gulliver is charged with treason for, among other crimes, "making water" in the capital though he was putting out a fire and saving countless lives. He is convicted and sentenced to be blinded. With the assistance of a kind friend, "a considerable person at court", he escapes to Blefuscu. Here, he spots and retrieves an abandoned boat and sails out to be rescued by a passing ship, which safely takes him back home.

(from Wikipedia)

I've had this on my reading list for a while.

Every year me and my wife plan a long weekend together. We leave on a Thursday evening and return on a Sunday. Last year's trip went to Warsaw.

While my wife was buying us some food, I had a refill of my poison; I was browsing through the shelves of the airport bookstore. As I was browsing I hit jack pot: An entire section dedicated to classics - and they where practically free. A book cost more or less 30 kroner, or about 5 - 6 dollars. I was going berserk (yeah, I'm Norwegian. I'm allowed to go berserk - viking style).

The casualties of my raid was among others Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne, The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas, Middlemarch by George Eliot and of course Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift.

When I found my wife at the restaurant table, she was mildly irritated. Why did I leave her for so long? Why did I let my food get cold? And then she saw the plastic bags. Full of books.

How could I use all the free space in our suitcases for books? And even before we got on the plane.

Yes ... stupid me ... yes ...

So when do we start?

You got some good ones there, Lars. You can start any time. I studied this book in high school and have reread it since then. Heathcliff is the classic "tormented hero".

I'll be starting Gulliver's Travels within the next few days and will join in the discussion.

Lars,
Very funny story!

I love this one, but I'm not sure it's YA. I think a lot of people assume that it's an adventure yarn, when it's really an attack on the follies of stupid humans.

Let's remember that this is by the same author as A Modest Proposal, which mocked the English mistreatment of Ireland by sarcastically suggesting that the Irish wouldn't starve if they just ate their own babies.

Books like these can be read at different levels. As for the book being suitable for YA, I consider any book that can read and studied in high school or 13+ as a YA book. It is definitely not a children's book. By the time young people are 14 or older, many of them read general fiction.
I still remember how excited I was in Grade 9 when I check books out of the adult section of the library. It was a very small library so the librarian knew exactly where everyone was.

Going back to Gulliver, more people should get the message about the foibles of mankind. Some people need more than subtle hints, they sometimes need exaggerated examples to get the message.

I read the first two chapters today. I laughed at the list of contents of Gulliver's pockets.

I am really enjoying this book. I'm pleasantly finding it a much easier/faster read than many classics of the same time period.

I finished the first section and do believe that the idea that gave me the most pause was in Chapter 6. (view spoiler)[ How rewards are incorporated into Lilliput's justice system. (hide spoiler)] It really did make me think that if applied to the real world, just maybe we (mankind) would be in far better shape.

I just started and agree that, while I'm ready to read it as an adult, it is a book that would be too boring and difficult for most youth.
Quick question -when Gulliver is tied up in Chapter 1 he states, "observing likewise that the number of my enemies increased, I gave tokens to let them know they might do with me as they please." Any insight into what "tokens"might mean here?

Brian wrote: "Quick question -when Gulliver is tied up in Chapter 1 he states, "observing likewise that the number of my enemies increased, I gave tokens to let them know they might do with me as they please." Any insight into what "tokens"might mean here? "

I was unfamiliar with the use of token here as well... I found this definition which appears to fit the context:

archaic: a word or object conferring authority on or serving to authenticate the speaker or holder.

Gem, that definition does fit how Swift/Gulliver used the word token, but I still wonder what the tokens could be. It can't be a word, since there was a language difference, so it would have to be an object or possibly a gesture? I hoped some scholarly reader more acquainted with 18th century British culture than I would have some insight. if not, it won't be the last baffling reference I'll confront, which is expected when reading 300 year old novels.

From the context, I would take "tokens" to mean gestures. In general, a token is a small thing that carries meaning, in this case a shrug of the shoulders or a roll of the eyes.

Phil wrote: "From the context, I would take "tokens" to mean gestures. In general, a token is a small thing that carries meaning, in this case a shrug of the shoulders or a roll of the eyes."
That sounds about right. Thanks.

As I am reading the first few chapters, I keep thinking that Gulliver is going to eat all the food in Lilliput if he stays there for any length of time.

Rosemarie wrote: "As I am reading the first few chapters, I keep thinking that Gulliver is going to eat all the food in Lilliput if he stays there for any length of time."
I was thinking along similar lines. I saw his presence as a drain on the Lilliput society and wondered why he was not sent away, regardless of the help he eventually provided (militarily). The accumulated cost doesn't seem to be worth the payoff, in the long run, in my mind.

Part II: A Voyage to Brobdingnag

Gulliver soon sets out again. When the sailing ship Adventure is blown off course by storms and forced to sail for land in search of fresh water, Gulliver is abandoned by his companions and is left on a peninsula on the western coast of the North American continent.

The grass of that land is as tall as a tree. He is then found by a farmer who was about 72 feet tall, judging from Gulliver estimating a man's step being 10 yards. He brings Gulliver home and the farmer's daughter Glumdalclitch cares for Gulliver. The giant-sized farmer treats him as a curiosity and exhibits him for money. After a while the constant shows make Gulliver sick, and the farmer sells him to the queen of the realm. Glumdalclitch (who accompanied her father while exhibiting Gulliver) is taken into the Queen of Brobdingnag's service to take care of the tiny man. Since Gulliver is too small to use their huge chairs, beds, knives and forks, the Queen of Brobdingnag commissions a small house to be built for him so that he can be carried around in it; this is referred to as his "traveling box".

Between small adventures such as fighting giant wasps and being carried to the roof by a monkey, he discusses the state of Europe with the King of Brobdingnag. The King is not happy with Gulliver's accounts of Europe, especially upon learning of the use of guns and cannons. On a trip to the seaside, his traveling box is seized by a giant eagle which drops Gulliver and his box into the sea where he is picked up by some sailors who return him to England.

(from Wikipedia)

I just finished Part II. I must say I enjoy hearing about Gulliver's antics with the monkey, his descriptions of how he can see lice on people's clothing and all the pores in their skin and many more funny episodes. I find him so funny; he sure thinks highly of himself.

I almost fall asleep during is talks about the English government or the state of Europe or other discussion he has with the King. We're alerted to these in the small summaries that start each chapter. The summaries themselves can be quite funny: "His quarrels with the queen's dwarf" - I knew that would be worth reading!

I enjoy the book while I'm reading it (even though some parts are snooze-fests) but didn't really want to pick it up during the first third of the book. Now I'm more drawn to read. On to Part III.

My husband informed me that there is a literary magazine called the Lilliput Review, dedicated to the short poem. They have a Facebook page.

Phil wrote: "I love this one, but I'm not sure it's YA. I think a lot of people assume that it's an adventure yarn, when it's really an attack on the follies of stupid humans.

Let's remember that this is by th..."

I have also NEVER considered it as children's literature, but there are I guess enough abridged and watered down versions available that those could indeed be deemed to be more children's fare.

Phil wrote: "I love this one, but I'm not sure it's YA. I think a lot of people assume that it's an adventure yarn, when it's really an attack on the follies of stupid humans.

Let's remember that this is by th..."

We read A Modest Proposal in grade eight English and then were made to write our own "modest" proposals (in the same satirical manner and proposing something rather outrageous). It was interesting and I enjoyed it, but our teacher actually go in a bit of hot water as some of the suggestions we had, were really not all that politically correct and some parents complained.

Rosemarie wrote: "As I am reading the first few chapters, I keep thinking that Gulliver is going to eat all the food in Lilliput if he stays there for any length of time."

Is it not funny how the German word for "midget" is actually based on Lilliput (Lilliputaner)? But that makes me wonder what individuals with dwarfism were called prior to that in German (I guess just Zwerg, but I do wonder).

I am in part 2 now. Gulliver comments on the rough complexion of the large people, and then realizes that he must have appeared to the Lilliputians in the same way. I am glad the farmer's daughter caring for him and looking after his welfare.

Part 2 has more commentary on the British political system. I found the breast commentary interesting and that the weather was size sensitive.

I have never read this book before and was warned by Rosemarie that Parts 3 and 4 were "weird." She absolutely hit the nail on the head!

Part III: A Voyage to Laputa, Balnibarbi, Luggnagg, Glubbdubdrib and Japan

Setting out again, Gulliver's ship is attacked by pirates and he is marooned close to a desolate rocky island near India. He is rescued by the flying island of Laputa, a kingdom devoted to the arts of music, mathematics, and astronomy but unable to use them for practical ends. Laputa's custom of throwing rocks down at rebellious cities on the ground prefigures air strikes as a method of warfare.

Gulliver tours Balnibarbi, the kingdom ruled from Laputa, as the guest of a low-ranking courtier and sees the ruin brought about by the blind pursuit of science without practical results, in a satire on bureaucracy and on the Royal Society and its experiments. At the Grand Academy of Lagado in Balnibarbi , great resources and manpower are employed on researching completely preposterous schemes such as extracting sunbeams from cucumbers, softening marble for use in pillows, learning how to mix paint by smell, and uncovering political conspiracies by examining the excrement of suspicious persons (see muckraking). Gulliver is then taken to Maldonada, the main port of Balnibarbi, to await a trader who can take him on to Japan.

While waiting for a passage, Gulliver takes a short side-trip to the island of Glubbdubdrib which is southwest of Balnibardi. On Glubbdubdrib, he visits a magician's dwelling and discusses history with the ghosts of historical figures, the most obvious restatement of the "ancients versus moderns" theme in the book. The ghosts consist of Julius Caesar, Brutus, Homer, Aristotle, René Descartes, and Pierre Gassendi.

On the island of Luggnagg, he encounters the struldbrugs, people who are immortal. They do not have the gift of eternal youth, but suffer the infirmities of old age and are considered legally dead at the age of eighty.

After reaching Japan, Gulliver asks the Emperor "to excuse my performing the ceremony imposed upon my countrymen of trampling upon the crucifix", which the Emperor does. Gulliver returns home, determined to stay there for the rest of his days.

(from Wikipedia)

I have just finished Chapter 6 of part 2. The king and Gulliver discuss the state of affairs in Britain. Gulliver brags about the superiority of his country, and the king responds with a list of pertinent questions that Gulliver has no answer for.

I like this quote from part 3, chapter 2:

I rather take this Quality to spring from a very common Infirmity of Human Nature, inclining us to be more curious and conceited in Matters where we have the least Concern, and for which we are least adapted either by Study or Nature.

It appears to me that the book gets more satirical with each part with Part IV having some fairly vicious attacks on fellow Englishmen and Europeans. Swift is, as Wikipedia describes him, "a harsh judge of human nature." Phil was right in saying that people assume its an adventure yarn when its an attack on the follies of stupid humans. However, I can see how Part I can be separated and portrayed as an adventure.
Gem said that, as a literal reader, she didn't expect to get the satire, but the satire is certainly not subtle, or humorous.
Part III and especially Part IV seem like many 20th century science fiction works with the Houyhnhnms similar to the aliens that find humans to be barbaric.

I am in Part 4 now, and I am finding it distinctly unfunny. There is a difference between satire and gross exaggeration- and I mean gross. The eighteenth century was a much earthier time than the 19th. Swift's work has more in common with Rabelais (Gargantua and Pantagruel) and Moliere than with British writers like Sterne and Fielding.

I have finished the book. The author concludes the novel by saying the biggest sin(fault) of humans (yahoos) is PRIDE.

Part IV: A Voyage to the Land of the Houyhnhnms

Despite his earlier intention of remaining at home, Gulliver returns to sea as the captain of a merchantman, as he is bored with his employment as a surgeon. On this voyage, he is forced to find new additions to his crew whom he believes to have turned the rest of the crew against him. His crew then commits mutiny. After keeping him contained for some time resolve to leave him on the first piece of land they come across, and continue as pirates. He is abandoned in a landing boat and comes upon a race of hideous, deformed and savage humanoid creatures to which he conceives a violent antipathy. Shortly afterwards, he meets the Houyhnhnms, a race of talking horses. They are the rulers while the deformed creatures called Yahoos are human beings in their base form.

Gulliver becomes a member of a horse's household and comes to both admire and emulate the Houyhnhnms and their lifestyle, rejecting his fellow humans as merely Yahoos endowed with some semblance of reason which they only use to exacerbate and add to the vices Nature gave them. However, an Assembly of the Houyhnhnms rules that Gulliver, a Yahoo with some semblance of reason, is a danger to their civilization and expels him. He is then rescued against his will by a Portuguese ship and is disgusted to see that Captain Pedro de Mendez, a Yahoo, is a wise, courteous, and generous person.

He returns to his home in England, but he is unable to reconcile himself to living among "Yahoos" and becomes a recluse, remaining in his house, largely avoiding his family and his wife, and spending several hours a day speaking with the horses in his stables.

❀✿ Gem ✿❀
I did not get a chance to read this one but I am picky about the books I purchase too (Sorry).
I did follow along on the discussion and it does need to be added to my every growing TBR pile! (I think I need to start another stack! haha!)

Thank you for the wonderful leadership! Hope you will consider another YA to lead!

Thanks again!

I finally finished Part 3. I was on a 10 day trip and didn't want to take along the library copy of Gulliver's Travels so I downloaded an ebook from Amazon. It only included Parts 1 and 2! I checked a few other versions and they were the same. I wonder if these versions are those that young adults read. Just a thought.

As for part 3, I found the description of those humans who are immortal very creative--how they were treated by others, how it wasn't so great to live forever, how they couldn't do things after a specific age.

Most of the versions for younger readers contain only parts one and two, with maybe some parts edited, depending on the audience.

I've finally finished Gulliver and enjoyed parts 1 and 2, and part 3 was okay, but part 4 dragged. I think the writing in this book was amazing and Swift's imagination and intellect were on display. I just didn't enjoy the book.

I found part 4 long as well. I know he was trying to make a point about the follies of humankind, but enough already- we get it.

Very carefully I read over the previous discussion for Gulliver’s Travels, as I am near finishing Part 1. I feel so proud of myself this evening. Thanks to college, I understand the satire about Lilliput & Blefuscu and their connections to English & France. The whole egg cracking debate immediately had me thinking of Catholicism versus Protestantism, especially considering the time during which Swift wrote the novel. I know without certain college history courses I would have been hard-pressed to understand the satire so far.

I also must admit at being surprised with the rather simple language Swift wrote in. I suppose the sort of language authors used in the 18th and 19th centuries may have had something to do with their social class and education? I know the Jane Austen books I have read are written much more eloquently as well as Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre. Of course, the intended audience likely was taken into account with language. Swift clearly wanted the average citizen to be able to read his novel.

I have even thought about who Swift was satirizing, so your comments are very helpful, Samantha. Your comparison of the Egg controversy to quibbles in churcb sects makes a lot of sense too.
You will find that Swift does not used refined language like Jane Austen. He can be coarse at times, in an 18th century way, when everything was more free and easy than during the 19th.