The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Great Expectations
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GE, Chapter 19
Mod
Pip, no doubt, still conscious of Estella's dismissal of him because of his thick boots, heads off to the tailor, and in Trabbs shop we see three of our major motifs combining. First , it is clear that Pip equates success and being a gentleman with the clothes a person wears. Pip makes it very clear that he wants "a fashionable suit of clothes" to look the part of a gentleman in London. This desire to change his clothes in order to define his new image is a signal to us that clothes are going to play a significant symbolic role in the novel.
A second motif that is again presented in this chapter is that of the apprentice. Pip was apprenticed to Joe. Now, through some agent still unclear, Pip is being apprenticed to someone else to learn how to become a gentleman. We have already had Wopsle's reference George Lillo's play "The London Merchant" which is a cautionary tale to apprentices to stay on the straight and narrow path in their apprenticeships. In this chapter we meet Trabbs's apprentice. While the scene with Trabbs boy could be seen as comic, it is also instructive of the division of classes, and how there are clear lines of social demarcation and jealousy between the classes, or between people who move up in class. At this point I would also suggest there is yet another person who is an apprentice, and that is Estella. While we still do not know thecomplete relationship between Miss Havisham and Estella it is very evident that Miss Havisham is training Estella to dislike, if not hate men. How else could we interpret her whisper to Estella to "break their heats my pride and joy."
At the clothing shop Pip also experiences threats of violence between Trabbs and his apprentice. Trabbs says, in reference to the apprentice, "I'll knock your head off," "shall I kick you, " and "let me have none of your tricks here ... or you shall repent it, you young scoundrel, the longest day you have to live." Again, we read of violent acts. Dickens must have a reason for making this novel, at least to this point in the narrative. One of constant violence and the threats of violence. Indeed, from the first chapter Pip has been either the recipient of violent acts or the witness to them. The convict, the soldiers, the fight between Joe and Orlick, his sister's assault and now even at a tailor's shop violence is always in the air.
Clothes, apprenticeships and violence, in many forms and shapes, have been presented in the first stage of Pip's expectations. I think we will see these issues continued as we read further.
Mod
Good luck Pip. The last time we read of something or someone being "spread before" a person it was Miss Havisham's wedding cake, and her desire to be placed on the table before the Pocket family when she was dead. How macabre are these lines "This ... is where I will be laid when I am dead. They shall come and look at me here." How much these lines foretell the future is yet to be discovered.
Kim wrote: "did Dickens want us to not like Pip? He is our main character, but aren't we supposed to love the main character? What was Dickens thinking as he wrote the book, to like Pip or not like Pip. I'm just wondering."I would love to revisit this question when we get to the wrap-up discussion. I hope I'll remember. :-)
"...bestowing a dinner of roast-beef and plum-pudding, a pint of ale, and a gallon of condescension, upon everybody in the village."
The "gallon of condescension" line surely indicates that the adult Pip, looking back, realizes and regrets what a pompous jerk he was in his younger days. We must keep looking for signs of character development as we read on. The bit Kim quoted about Pip crying at the signpost and recognizing his ingratitude shows me that he already knows, deep down, how awful he's being, but he just hasn't matured enough to tame his pride. Or is that just the older Pip spinning past events, trying to make young Pip more sympathetic?
Trabb's boy (like Joe and Biddy, I think, but obviously not as kind and patient) sees that the emperor has no clothes and takes great pleasure in trying to knock Pip off his high horse. Instead of being humbled, Pip's ego is injured and he tries to get the boy in trouble.
I'm comparing the reaction of Trabb's boy to Pip's expectations to that of Pumblechook with his sycophantic hand shaking. Why does Dickens feel the need to show us these two diametrically opposed reactions? I don't have a theory, but I also don't think Dickens does anything without a reason. Pumblechook's reaction reminds me of a story Ringo Starr told: that he knew that his life had changed forever when he spilled a drink at a family gathering, and instead of them giving him a hard time and expecting him to clean it up, they all rushed to wipe the mess up for him. I wonder what Pip must have thought to have Pumblechook, who'd always treated him like crap, suddenly genuflecting. Putting myself in Pip's place, I think of all the things he must have been feeling - excitement, pride, guilt, confusion, anxiety, etc. It's a lot for a kid who's already overloaded with normal teenage hormones and angst.
The young Pip is a snob, no doubt about it. But since it is the older Pip who describes him this way, are we to take this as irony? Something must be going to happen in the story to make him mature, and realise the errors of his ways. I think the paragraph you quote Kim, "Heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts. I was better after I had cried than before,—more sorry, more aware of my own ingratitude, more gentle. If I had cried before, I should have had Joe with me then."
is a bit of foretelling, coming very shortly before we're told, "This is the end of the first stage of Pip's expectations."
He's already beginning to have a double-think and experiencing the confusion of late adolescence.
I too loved "a gallon of condescension". This technique of using the older Pip and the young Pip adds so many layers - including yet more opportunities for humour and lightly sarcastic observations.
But I'm increasingly finding a poignancy about this work, especially in the scenes at Joe's forge.
This part stood out for me,"I left my fairy godmother, with both her hands on her crutch stick, standing in the midst of the dimly lighted room beside the rotten bride-cake that was hidden in cobwebs."
Dickens can't resist bring the world of fairies and spirits into his books, and here this image seemed to have a weird kind of beauty. Instead of seeing Miss Havisham as a grotesque, the reader now begins to see her as benevolent, as the young Pip does, and the strands of cobwebs as gossamer threads. Yet there is rottenness too.
Mr Trabb and his boy, specifically the relationship between the boy and our young hero, seems to be a recurring theme. The young Oliver Twist and Noah Claypole springs to mind, also young "Master Copperfull" David Copperfield and Uriah Heep, and I think there are others. It seems more than likely to me that Dickens is drawing these characters and hoping to dispel one of his own bad memories from the blacking factory, here.
I love Trabb's boy. He's one of my favourite characters. The only excuse I can make for Pip is that as he narrates in retrospect he does not spare himself. He does not comment critically on himself as he might have done to try to soften the blow of what a jerk he had become.
Note the final part of the last sentence: "and the world spread before me". It's an allusion to Milton's Paradise Lost
when Adam and Eve are evicted from Eden. Does this imply that life with Joe in the home-town is Pip's actual Eden? Pip may have many options ahead of him, but has he lost Paradise?
Very nice observation Natalie :)
Mod
The only excuse I can make for Pip is that as he narrates in retrospect he does not spare himself. He does not comment critically on himse..."
Pip certainly seems to want to find a paradise beyond the forge. When we consider that he viewed Satis House and its inhabitants as being a great improvement over the forge one does have to wonder about Pip's world view.
At Satis House Pip has already been to, and eaten in, a ruined garden. Now he thinks that an even more promising paradise awaits him in London. It will be interesting to soon learn what the London paradise is like, and whether Pip's eyes and mind are thinking more clearly. Sadly, I guess not.
Mod
"I left my fairy godmother, with both her hands on her crutch stick, standing in the midst of the dimly lighted room beside the rotten bride-cake that was hidden in cob..."
When Pip refers to Miss Havisham as his "fairy godmother" it sadly tells us how little Pip has learned in his first 18 or so years of life. The narrative perspective is very interesting in this phrase like it is in so many others. Is the mature narrator being ironic here, and mocking his own younger ideal perspective? Is this the young Pip's narrative voice naively assuming London will unfold all its mysteries and dreams for him. The description tells us that Pip clearly sees Miss Havisham as being infirm, in a "dimly lighted room beside the rotten bride-cake that was hidden in cobwebs." Is Pip so taken with his great expectations and the possibility of winning Estella's heart that he cannot clearly see what the bride-cake, the cobwebs and the infirmity of Miss Havisham really means? How Pip's heart has blinded him. Will his heart punish him?
Mod
At the end of this section Pip asks himself whether Miss Havisham views him as Estelle's intended, doesn't he? But I don't think it's clear to him how much Miss Havisham hates all men - and maybe only hinted in the text, isn't it?
Natalie wrote: "Note the final part of the last sentence: "and the world spread before me". It's an allusion to Milton's Paradise Lostwhen Adam and Eve are evicted from Eden."
Very nice, Natalie! I haven't read Milton, so would not have caught this. It definitely adds new layers of meaning to the passage.
Mod
Me having a mind that no longer works well, and it didn't work in the first place, can't remember if we know why or if Miss H hates all men, some men, or everybody. But she was trying to get Estella to hate them, break their heart type of thing - I think. Another thing I can't remember is, what happened to the wedding? Did the groom die on the way to the wedding? Did he die just as the service began? Did a horse and carriage run over him? Or did he leave her waiting and never show up? If I should remember from our reading together, I don't.
I don't think we've been told yet.
Mod
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"Biddy, having rubbed the leaf to pieces between her hands,—and the smell of a black-currant bush has ever since recalled to me that evening in the little garden by the side of the lane,—said, 'Have you never considered that he may be proud?'"
It's a very clever detail because it reminds us that we have somebody here who is telling the story of his life with a wide distance between the moment the story is told and the events that are recorded. Apart from that, it reminds me how certain smells or tunes invariably bring back fond (or anxious) childhood memories. Dickens at his best again!
Pip as a narrator reflecting upon his former behaviour might certainly be a means of Dickens to prevent us from disliking the protagonist too much, although we are clearly supposed to regard him with very critical eyes. As to your question, Kim, whether we are not always supposed to like the hero of a story, I can think of examples of where we are definitely supposed to dislike him or see him in a critical light. Just think of Thackery's Barry Lyndon, where the narrator is a scoundrel, or of Henry James's The Turn of the Screw, where the narrator is a deeply disturbed woman. Or of all the madmen's tales by Poe. I must admit that a more ambivalent first person narrator does intrigue me more than a ... Little Nell kind of person.
I also liked the sentence about the cows respecting Pip, and I even more liked your comment on that, Kim! Maybe, the feelings of the cows towards Pip are more what Pip thinks of himself. Now, he is proud and thinks that everyone should fawn on him - interestingly, the already quite wealthy Mr. Trabb is very obsequious, whereas Trabb's boy, who is just an apprentice without a lot of money behind him isn't. When Pip was taking file and food to his convict, the cows seemed to look down upon him as on a culprit, and so I think that Pip projects his own feelings - feelings of guilt, but also pride - onto those unoffending creatures, which can be upgraded into something nice with a lot of gravy.
A last remark for now: I also found it very conclusive that as soon as Mr. Pumblechook starts sucking up to Pip, he cannot help thinking him a splendid man, whom he had grossly misjudged. Pip's conceit seems to make him very gullible, and a ready victim for anybody who is willing to take advantage of him.
Tristram - Great observations about the "use" of Biddy. I feel as if Biddy and Joe to some extent are the centre of this early part. They are grounding and give us a sense of normality to contrast everybody else with.Kim - I've across quite a few people in Goodreads who have to like the characters - or at least empathise with at least one - to enjoy any novel. This confuses me, as Wuthering Heights is chock-a-block with self-seeking spoilt individuals and yet most people love it. (I don't, but for other reasons). And I do think many of us love to read about anti-heroes although we'd thoroughly disapprove of them in real life.
I thought the older Pip was being tongue in cheek about the younger Pip's change of heart, in that even as a youngster he still realised how hypocritical Mr Pumblechook was being in his sudden benificence. I'll read that bit again ...(I can't get away from cows this morning - just been asked to post a picture of a cow elsewhere :/ )
Mod
Pip and Joe on the marshes
Chapter 19
John McLenan
1861
Dickens's Great Expectations,
Harper's Weekly 5 (16 February 1861)
Text Illustrated:
If I had often thought before, with something allied to shame, of my companionship with the fugitive whom I had once seen limping among those graves, what were my thoughts on this Sunday, when the place recalled the wretch, ragged and shivering, with his felon iron and badge! My comfort was, that it happened a long time ago, and that he had doubtless been transported a long way off, and that he was dead to me, and might be veritably dead into the bargain.
No more low, wet grounds, no more dikes and sluices, no more of these grazing cattle,—though they seemed, in their dull manner, to wear a more respectful air now, and to face round, in order that they might stare as long as possible at the possessor of such great expectations,—farewell, monotonous acquaintances of my childhood, henceforth I was for London and greatness; not for smith’s work in general, and for you! I made my exultant way to the old Battery, and, lying down there to consider the question whether Miss Havisham intended me for Estella, fell asleep.
When I awoke, I was much surprised to find Joe sitting beside me, smoking his pipe. He greeted me with a cheerful smile on my opening my eyes, and said,—
“As being the last time, Pip, I thought I’d foller.”
“And Joe, I am very glad you did so.”
“Thankee, Pip.”
“You may be sure, dear Joe,” I went on, after we had shaken hands, “that I shall never forget you.”
Mod
"And may I — May I —?"
Chapter 19
John McLenan
1861
Dickens's Great Expectations,
Harper's Weekly 5 (16 February 1861)
Text Illustrated:
“But my dear young friend,” said Mr. Pumblechook, “you must be hungry, you must be exhausted. Be seated. Here is a chicken had round from the Boar, here is a tongue had round from the Boar, here’s one or two little things had round from the Boar, that I hope you may not despise. But do I,” said Mr. Pumblechook, getting up again the moment after he had sat down, “see afore me, him as I ever sported with in his times of happy infancy? And may I—may I—?”
This May I, meant might he shake hands? I consented, and he was fervent, and then sat down again.
“Here is wine,” said Mr. Pumblechook. “Let us drink, Thanks to Fortune, and may she ever pick out her favorites with equal judgment! And yet I cannot,” said Mr. Pumblechook, getting up again, “see afore me One—and likewise drink to One—without again expressing—May I—may I—?”
I said he might, and he shook hands with me again, and emptied his glass and turned it upside down. I did the same; and if I had turned myself upside down before drinking, the wine could not have gone more direct to my head.
Mr. Pumblechook helped me to the liver wing, and to the best slice of tongue (none of those out-of-the-way No Thoroughfares of Pork now), and took, comparatively speaking, no care of himself at all. “Ah! poultry, poultry! You little thought,” said Mr. Pumblechook, apostrophizing the fowl in the dish, “when you was a young fledgling, what was in store for you. You little thought you was to be refreshment beneath this humble roof for one as—Call it a weakness, if you will,” said Mr. Pumblechook, getting up again, “but may I? may I—?”
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Chapter 19
F. A. Fraser
c. 1877
Text Illustrated:
“Mr. Trabb,” said I, “it’s an unpleasant thing to have to mention, because it looks like boasting; but I have come into a handsome property.”
A change passed over Mr. Trabb. He forgot the butter in bed, got up from the bedside, and wiped his fingers on the tablecloth, exclaiming, “Lord bless my soul!”
“I am going up to my guardian in London,” said I, casually drawing some guineas out of my pocket and looking at them; “and I want a fashionable suit of clothes to go in. I wish to pay for them,” I added—otherwise I thought he might only pretend to make them, “with ready money.”
“My dear sir,” said Mr. Trabb, as he respectfully bent his body, opened his arms, and took the liberty of touching me on the outside of each elbow, “don’t hurt me by mentioning that. May I venture to congratulate you? Would you do me the favor of stepping into the shop?”
Mr. Trabb’s boy was the most audacious boy in all that country-side. When I had entered he was sweeping the shop, and he had sweetened his labors by sweeping over me. He was still sweeping when I came out into the shop with Mr. Trabb, and he knocked the broom against all possible corners and obstacles, to express (as I understood it) equality with any blacksmith, alive or dead.
“Hold that noise,” said Mr. Trabb, with the greatest sternness, “or I’ll knock your head off!—Do me the favor to be seated, sir. Now, this,” said Mr. Trabb, taking down a roll of cloth, and tiding it out in a flowing manner over the counter, preparatory to getting his hand under it to show the gloss, “is a very sweet article. I can recommend it for your purpose, sir, because it really is extra super. But you shall see some others. Give me Number Four, you!” (To the boy, and with a dreadfully severe stare; foreseeing the danger of that miscreant’s brushing me with it, or making some other sign of familiarity.)
Mr. Trabb never removed his stern eye from the boy until he had deposited number four on the counter and was at a safe distance again. Then he commanded him to bring number five, and number eight. “And let me have none of your tricks here,” said Mr. Trabb, “or you shall repent it, you young scoundrel, the longest day you have to live.”
Mr. Trabb then bent over number four, and in a sort of deferential confidence recommended it to me as a light article for summer wear, an article much in vogue among the nobility and gentry, an article that it would ever be an honor to him to reflect upon a distinguished fellow-townsman’s (if he might claim me for a fellow-townsman) having worn. “Are you bringing numbers five and eight, you vagabond,” said Mr. Trabb to the boy after that, “or shall I kick you out of the shop and bring them myself?”
I selected the materials for a suit, with the assistance of Mr. Trabb’s judgment, and re-entered the parlor to be measured. For although Mr. Trabb had my measure already, and had previously been quite contented with it, he said apologetically that it “wouldn’t do under existing circumstances, sir,—wouldn’t do at all.” So, Mr. Trabb measured and calculated me in the parlor, as if I were an estate and he the finest species of surveyor, and gave himself such a world of trouble that I felt that no suit of clothes could possibly remunerate him for his pains. When he had at last done and had appointed to send the articles to Mr. Pumblechook’s on the Thursday evening, he said, with his hand upon the parlor lock, “I know, sir, that London gentlemen cannot be expected to patronize local work, as a rule; but if you would give me a turn now and then in the quality of a townsman, I should greatly esteem it. Good morning, sir, much obliged.—Door!”
Mod
May I — May I?
Chapter 19
F. W. Pailthorpe
c. 1900
Dickens's Great Expectations, Garnett edition
Text Illustrated:
“But my dear young friend,” said Mr. Pumblechook, “you must be hungry, you must be exhausted. Be seated. Here is a chicken had round from the Boar, here is a tongue had round from the Boar, here’s one or two little things had round from the Boar, that I hope you may not despise. But do I,” said Mr. Pumblechook, getting up again the moment after he had sat down, “see afore me, him as I ever sported with in his times of happy infancy? And may I—may I—?”
Mod
I do!!! I always rout for Iago because he is such a develish character, but at least he exits the stage with some kind of dignity. Needless to say, I would not care to have Iago as a friend or acquaintance.
Mod
Chapter 19
F. W. Pailthorpe
c. 1900
Dickens's Great Expectations, Garnett edition
Text Illustrated:
“But my dear young friend,” said Mr. Pumblechook, “you must be hungry, you m..."
Ah, Mr. Pailthorpe, this is almost Cruikshankian, especially your fish-like Mr. Pumblechook! However, it's also very funny how McLenan's Uncle Pumblechook grabs Pip's hands, thus illustrating how he tries to usurp him (as when he proposes to him the chance of becoming a silent partner in his business), and to see how the hypocrite's fat belly is resting on the table.
Jean wrote: "I've across quite a few people in Goodreads who have to like the characters - or at least empathise with at least one - to enjoy any novel"I'm one of those people, Jean. I really need at least one character to like or identify with. In GE there are plenty to choose from - Joe, Biddy, and others to come. I've been reluctant to read Wuthering Heights and never knew why. I've even started it once or twice but have never gotten far. Maybe I sensed that there would be nobody in the book I'd care about!
Mod
Thanks for getting our Classic Comic version up to date.
You and Kim are giving us many fine treats!
I meant "I've come across", of course :/
That's a nice comic version - very naturalistic. I don't think Pip has any right to be so classically handsome though, as he's such a little ratbag! And actually Miss Havisham looks more like the undead ...
Wonderful comments one and all. I would like to focus on Pip and Estella and be a bit contrary. Pip and Estella are characters in parallel. Though it’s hard I feel for Pip. Remember at the beginning how the older Pip tells us that he always felt he should never have been born? Pip has received little positive validation in his life. He never knew his parents, and the verbal abuse he receives from his sister — his stand-in mother — is a constant reminder of his worthlessness, a burden his sister bears without nobility. She shows no love for her much younger brother and he’s very aware of this. Pip is desperately seeking escape, and this may be one reason why we find him roaming the gloomy marshes at the beginning of the story. I can understand a group of kids exploring the marshes, but a single child? It’s entire description is one of foreboding and danger. That’s disturbing. Also Pip is without friends his age.
So Pip escapes to Satis House only to encounter Estella’s verbal abuse which again validates his worthlessness. What is so sad is he’s so messed up in the head he confuses the rot and perversion of Satis House, and all that resides within, with freedom and respect. After all, a wealthy woman of the gentry repeatedly asks him to revisit, and when he returns without being asked is still permitted entry, something Pumblechook is denied.
And when he comes into money he acquires worth in the eyes of others. The violence Peter describes at the tailor’s is directed this time at the apprentice and not at Pip. The violence is displaced onto someone who is very much like Pip was only a few days prior. The tailor and others who once wouldn’t acknowledge his existence now fawn over him. More negative validation and a direct criticism of what people unlike Joe and Biddy value.
I like Joe too, but Joe has failed Pip in an important way. Pip is in dire need of a protector, someone who can put his sister’s abuse in context, even stop it, and that person has to be Joe, but Joe never tries.
Now that he has money does Pip believe Estella’s opinion of him will change too? Will it?
I feel for Estella too and wonder if she isn’t more abused than Pip? Miss Havisham seems to be raising Estella as an implement of revenge, a weapon that bludgeons every male who falls in love with her. Estella is locked away with her abuser and her abuser’s sycophants. Those scenes of Miss Havisham’s sycophants fawning over her along with the one in the kitchen where they engage in vicious gossip while Estella listens in with contempt are well-placed passages showing us what Estella sees as normal behavior. And then there are the (in)frequent visits from Mr. Jaggers, another fine role model. There is no love in Satis House, there is only hate and decay, and Estella is the recipient of it all.
The differences between Pip and Estella are superficial, while what they have in common reaches down deep affecting their world views. While Pip may confuse verbal abuse with love, Estella may confuse violence with love. Remember the kiss?
This is one book I’d love to see rewritten from Estella’s point of view. Does anyone know if this has been done?
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is one book I’d love to see rewritten from Estella’s point of view. Does anyone know if this has been done? "Ooh... that would be fascinating. But could anyone but Dickens himself do it justice?
Xan - this "contrary" view is a brilliant interpretation. Pip and Estelle, united in both being alienated from a normal upbringing. I really need to think about this some more. Thank you!
May Lou, no, it would have to be very different. We have no Dickens and badly need one, at least in the U.S. He would never be at a lose for subject matter.Jean, thank you.
Mod
Though it’s hard I feel for Pip. Remember at the beginn..."
Xan
A wonderful analysis. Yes. Pip does lack a group of role models that would help him grow as a person.
Your phrase "The differences between Pip and Estella are superficial" is, at once, both challenging and illuminating my long-held ideas. The idea of "world views" is a unique take on their early lives.
Mod
your analysis of Pip as a loner who is never given a reason for thinking himself a valuable person and who suddenly finds himself uplifted by his great expectations, really convinces me and makes me see Pip in a less severe light now. Maybe, the sudden change from rags to riches would have turned everybody's head provided they had had the same childhood as Pip.
I would not follow you in your assumption that Joe fails to protect Pip, though - I hope I got you right there. I remember a scene when Mrs. Joe wants to hit Pip, but Joe simply blocks the way between brother and sister by putting his leg between them. That's maybe his gentle way of showing his wife her boundaries.
Tristram,I had forgotten that. Good point. He does do that but never directly confronts his wife. The thing is -- is this a case of dramatic irony? I never can get that straight -- Joe's childhood memories remind him that he could not stop his father's abuse of his mother, and those same childhood memories of his father now prevent him from stopping his wife when he could. The result is Pip is Joe's mom all over again or a lighter version of his mom.
Mod
Just think of it, of the childhood he had with these people. And things do affect you greatly that happen in your childhood, I wonder who I would be if I hadn't had epilepsy since I was eight with all those weeks and months spent in hospitals? Or if my incredibly odd aunts and uncles wouldn't have refused to talk to me because I was "born out of wedlock." Something I still find extremely stupid. Strangely though, I'd rather be just as I am.
Oh my, my, Kim, you've been through the wars. I'm sure that you wouldn't have been half such an interesting person had you had a sweet as candy pain-free life. Selfishly I'm glad you are who you are, but that's enough pain now! I wish for you only happiness and good health, in spades!!!
Mod
Hahaha! Yep, and when you're dead you'll f
(Cont'd) you'll definitely be feeling good! Won't Heaven be amazing?!Sorry for premature posting. That's what I get for texting under the blankets while my husband is sleeping! ;-)
Mod
The tradesmen certainly do, as soon as he mentions those guineas.
“Mr. Trabb,” said I, “it’s an unpleasant thing to have to mention, because it looks like boasting; but I have come into a handsome property.”
A change passed over Mr. Trabb. He forgot the butter in bed, got up from the bedside, and wiped his fingers on the tablecloth, exclaiming, “Lord bless my soul!”
“I am going up to my guardian in London,” said I, casually drawing some guineas out of my pocket and looking at them; “and I want a fashionable suit of clothes to go in. I wish to pay for them,” I added—otherwise I thought he might only pretend to make them, “with ready money.”
“My dear sir,” said Mr. Trabb, as he respectfully bent his body, opened his arms, and took the liberty of touching me on the outside of each elbow, “don’t hurt me by mentioning that. May I venture to congratulate you? Would you do me the favor of stepping into the shop?”
...
“Hold that noise,” said Mr. Trabb, [to his boy] with the greatest sternness, “or I’ll knock your head off!—Do me the favor to be seated, sir."
Would Mr. Trabb ever have called Pip sir before?
Mod
when Adam and Eve are evicted from Eden. Does this imply that life with Joe in the home-town is Pip's actual Eden? ."
Wow. What a great comment/question.
Mod
Maybe she wants to elevate Pip to the point that he feels he's a legitimate contender to marry Estella (which he clearly hasn't felt up until now that he is) so she can crush him by refusing him despite all his fancy clothes and money. If he thinks this is his stepping-stone to fulfilling his love, it would make sense that Miss Havisham would elevate him so that when he falls in failure he has much further to fall and much more sense of loss and misery.
Just a thought as to why she might do it, if indeed she is his benefactor.
Mod
How much hatred she must be filled with. I'm beginning to think it covers the world.
Kim wrote: "Hello all,Now we're at Chapter 19 and we find Pip is all ready to pack his things, say goodbye - Pip's way of saying goodbye - and go out in the world to make all his "great expectations" come tr..."
I have a question - I do not like Pip at all, did Dickens want us to not like Pip? He is our main character, but aren't we supposed to love the main character? What was Dickens thinking as he wrote the book, to like Pip or not like Pip. I'm just wondering.
I don't know Kim. I remember loving David Copperfield as a child, but disliking him as an adult. Pip and David, both part of a bildungsroman narrative, noticing their personal growth and how it evolves as they mature is/was key here. I don't particularly like Pip either, yet I see redeemable qualities in him, and I hope they manifest themselves for him in a positive light. Who knows...Maybe we dislike him now, and grow to really like him? Like Mary Lou, I would like to revisit your question in the coming days :)
Mary Lou wrote: "Kim wrote: "did Dickens want us to not like Pip? He is our main character, but aren't we supposed to love the main character? What was Dickens thinking as he wrote the book, to like Pip or not like..."The "gallon of condescension" line surely indicates that the adult Pip, looking back, realizes and regrets what a pompous jerk he was in his younger days.
He sure is, but we have to remember Pip is an unhappy person. His personal vanity, his superiority complex, his demeaning of the other characters, all of these behaviors stem from something vacuous in him...His treatment of others, of those whom he considers intellectually inferior, are the very people who show Pip love and compassion, isn't this ironic? Pip's self-imposed superiority towards Biddy and Joe, at this point when he really has not achieved much, is in fact base and meritless. Pip's on an emotional roller coaster...He cannot seem to take responsibility for his actions, instead deflecting his own shortcomings (I think its still being common) on Biddy and Joe.
Joe may be an enigmatic character in this novel, but I find Biddy to be just as impactful. She is born to a social class that is not known for their grace or dignity, but she has more class than anybody who I've encountered coming from means in this novel so far. While having a conversation with Pip, the one where she's plucking black current leaves...Pip is again not on his best behavior, but Biddy speaks to him about Joe's pride in a respectful and dignified manner. She gets her message across to Pip while standing firm on her position, and she does respectfully of Pip. I often wondered if Biddy would be the love interest for Pip, but after what we encounter in Chapter 17...
We talked a good deal as we walked, and all that Biddy said seemed right. Biddy was never insulting, or capricious, or Biddy to-day and somebody else to-morrow; she would have derived only pain, and no pleasure, from giving me pain; she would far rather have wounded her own breast than mine. How could it be, then, that I did not like her much the better of the two?...I would be floored if they ended up together after this. Pip has said and behaved poorly, but nothing holds a candle to what he said to Biddy here. What a troglodyte! Did anybody else find this interaction even slightly heinous?
"Biddy," said I, when we were walking homeward, "I wish you could put me right."
"I wish I could!" said Biddy.
If I could only get myself to fall in love with you - you don't mind my speaking so openly to such an old acquaintance?"
"Oh dear, not at all!" said Biddy. "Don't mind me."
If I could only get myself to do it, that would be the thing for me.
"But you never will, you see," said Biddy.
Adding insult to injury, Pip says he forgives Biddy...Forgives? Pip has gone from vain to vile in my eyes. Kim, I hope for both our sakes, Pip's redeemable qualities overshadow this debauchery. LOL!
Friends, as I wrote this out, France just elected a new president...VIVE le FRANCE!!
The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Modest Proposal (other topics)Oliver Twist (other topics)
Great Expectations (other topics)
The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling (other topics)
Wuthering Heights (other topics)
More...
Now we're at Chapter 19 and we find Pip is all ready to pack his things, say goodbye - Pip's way of saying goodbye - and go out in the world to make all his "great expectations" come true. It is things like this that make me not care for Pip, not one little tiny bit:
"After our early dinner, I strolled out alone, purposing to finish off the marshes at once, and get them done with. As I passed the church, I felt (as I had felt during service in the morning) a sublime compassion for the poor creatures who were destined to go there, Sunday after Sunday, all their lives through, and to lie obscurely at last among the low green mounds. I promised myself that I would do something for them one of these days, and formed a plan in outline for bestowing a dinner of roast-beef and plum-pudding, a pint of ale, and a gallon of condescension, upon everybody in the village."
I don't mind Pip leaving on his journey to greatness and I could understand the joy of getting away from his sister and Mr. Pumblechook , but I cannot agree with the way he has been thinking of Joe, and the rest of the town. In my opinion Joe is the "greatest" person in the book. As to his thoughts on his walk through the marshes:
"No more low, wet grounds, no more dikes and sluices, no more of these grazing cattle,—though they seemed, in their dull manner, to wear a more respectful air now, and to face round, in order that they might stare as long as possible at the possessor of such great expectations,—"
Yes, even the cows respect him now. I wonder if anyone else does. Pip ends his trip down memory lane by falling asleep in the marsh and when he wakes up there is Joe. And good old Pip, decides that this is a good time to tell Joe that it is a shame he didn't learn more in the time they had together. When Joe replies that he is only the master his trade. And while it was a pity he was so awful dull; it is no more of a pity now, than it was before. But that isn't what Pip meant - of course - he thought that when he came into his property, it would have looked better if Joe had been better qualified for a rise in station.
I have a question - I do not like Pip at all, did Dickens want us to not like Pip? He is our main character, but aren't we supposed to love the main character? What was Dickens thinking as he wrote the book, to like Pip or not like Pip. I'm just wondering.
And now since Pip didn't seem to make it known to Joe what he had meant, he decided to confide in Biddy.
“And it is, Biddy,” said I, “that you will not omit any opportunity of helping Joe on, a little.”
“How helping him on?” asked Biddy, with a steady sort of glance.
“Well! Joe is a dear good fellow,—in fact, I think he is the dearest fellow that ever lived,—but he is rather backward in some things. For instance, Biddy, in his learning and his manners.”
Although I was looking at Biddy as I spoke, and although she opened her eyes very wide when I had spoken, she did not look at me.
“O, his manners! won’t his manners do then?” asked Biddy, plucking a black-currant leaf.
“My dear Biddy, they do very well here—”
“O! they do very well here?” interrupted Biddy, looking closely at the leaf in her hand."
This guy can't go to London fast enough for me. Of course, first he needs new clothes, and it doesn't help Pip from being oh so in love with himself when people are practically falling at his feet when learning the news. We have Mr. Trabb, the tailor, who is busy with his breakfast when Pip arrives and goes on eating, but when learning the news there is a change in the tailor's manner toward Pip:
“I am going up to my guardian in London,” said I, casually drawing some guineas out of my pocket and looking at them; “and I want a fashionable suit of clothes to go in. I wish to pay for them,” I added—otherwise I thought he might only pretend to make them, “with ready money.”
“My dear sir,” said Mr. Trabb, as he respectfully bent his body, opened his arms, and took the liberty of touching me on the outside of each elbow, “don’t hurt me by mentioning that. May I venture to congratulate you? Would you do me the favor of stepping into the shop?"
When he leaves the tailor he heads toward Mr. Pumblechook's home, I can't figure out why, with the feelings he has toward him, but Pumblechook must be expecting this visit since he is waiting for him at the door. He has heard the news and has a meal all prepared for him.
"He was waiting for me with great impatience. He had been out early with the chaise-cart, and had called at the forge and heard the news. He had prepared a collation for me in the Barnwell parlor, and he too ordered his shopman to “come out of the gangway” as my sacred person passed."
Pip's sacred person does pass, and does have quite a grand dinner with Pumblechook, which seems to have quite a few interruptions by Mr. Pumblechook wanting to shake hands with Pip.
But eventually the dinner does end and Pip heads for home, and we have the good news of knowing that he is one step closer to leaving his hometown and leaving me behind, I hope so anyway.
The days go on and the last day he goes to say goodbye to Miss Haversham and of course, let her know about his good fortune. This is part of her reply:
“Well!” she went on; “you have a promising career before you. Be good—deserve it—and abide by Mr. Jaggers’s instructions.” She looked at me, and looked at Sarah, and Sarah’s countenance wrung out of her watchful face a cruel smile. “Good-bye, Pip!—you will always keep the name of Pip, you know.”
And now it is the day Pip is to leave, and goes from the town early in the morning. Finally, a little bit of something other than his wonderful self enters the chapter as it ends:
"I walked away at a good pace, thinking it was easier to go than I had supposed it would be, and reflecting that it would never have done to have had an old shoe thrown after the coach, in sight of all the High Street. I whistled and made nothing of going. But the village was very peaceful and quiet, and the light mists were solemnly rising, as if to show me the world, and I had been so innocent and little there, and all beyond was so unknown and great, that in a moment with a strong heave and sob I broke into tears. It was by the finger-post at the end of the village, and I laid my hand upon it, and said, “Good-bye, O my dear, dear friend!”
Heaven knows we need never be ashamed of our tears, for they are rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts. I was better after I had cried than before,—more sorry, more aware of my own ingratitude, more gentle. If I had cried before, I should have had Joe with me then."