The History Book Club discussion

Spoiler Alert

This is the spoiler thread for the book BLACK FLAGS: THE RISE OF ISIS by Joby Warrick

There are articles/videos/interviews etc. which deal with this book that I am setting up a thread to add any of these items to.

Please feel free to add your own. If you cite any book or author aside from the book being discussed - you have to add the proper citation, book cover, author's photo and author's link.

This way the adds will not be disruptive to the non spoiler conversation. And you can discuss any and all of these without spoiler html because this is not the book discussion thread nor a non spoiler thread. Setting up this spoiler thread for this book will also not clutter up the book discussion thread.

by Joby Warrick

From Prison to Power: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and the Early Days of ISIS (Zarqawi killed in 2006)
By MEAGHAN WAGNER
October 1, 2015

http://www.signature-reads.com/2015/1...

Source: Signature

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is the man who founded ISIS
Ted Kemp | @TedKempCNBC
Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 | 9:22 AM ET

To not glorify these folks who have taken many lives and inflicted pain - we are not going to post their photos - we will just add the articles and you can read them and see the images there.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/11/who-fo...

Source: CNBC

HBO Miniseries

http://deadline.com/2016/08/bradley-c...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/br...

Bradley Cooper working on ISIS TV series exploring the rise of Islamic State militants
The script is based on Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Black Flags: The Rise of Isis by Joby Warrick

The joy and sadness of returning to Mosul
By Basheer Al Zaidi
BBC Arabic, Mosul
31 March 2017


Basher and Kareem had not seen each other for 14 years

I've dreamed of going back to Mosul for so long.

The city where I was born and grew up has always occupied a special place in my heart and it's full of happy memories.

My Mosul was a city of green and shady streets, with beautiful, old houses overlooking the River Tigris.

It was a city of books with a famous university where my father taught and I studied.

It was a place where Iraqis came for a break, to breathe its cool, fresh air and visit its world-renowned archaeological sites.

I hadn't been home for more than a decade, and knew that after two brutal years of occupation by so-called Islamic State (IS), Mosul had suffered much damage.

But it was still a shock to see it for real.

Heartbreaking homecoming

As we drove through the streets where I played as a child, I found myself fighting back the tears.

Familiar places had become almost unrecognisable.

Everywhere you looked there were bullet-scarred walls and bombed-out buildings.

The roads were littered with twisted metal and burned out cars.

It was a heartbreaking homecoming.

Remainder of article with some photos:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-...

Source: BBC

NEWS DESK
THE BODIES OF MOSUL
By Robin Wright March 30, 2017

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-de...

Source: The New Yorker

The Cast of Characters:

We will not glorify the terrorists by posting their photos - there are photos in the book - any of the cast of characters not part of ISIS of course we will identify as time goes on.

In the section of the book therefore - we will not highlight or post photos of any of people in the Zarquawi and his Generation listing or in The Islamic State of Iraq and its Successors - see book or research on your own.

In the Jordan segment - we will not highlight or post photos of Salem Ben Suweid, Azim al-Jayousi, or Sajida al-Rishawi.

In the Iraq segment - we will address all aside from Zaid al-Karbouly

In the Syria section for all of the same reasons as above - we will not address Abu Mohammad al-Julani either.

Others will be addressed.

The Desperate Battle to Destroy ISIS
2017 - 02 - 06
Source: The New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201...

NEWS FLASH - IMPORTANT

NEWS ISIS TERROR APR 1 2017, 2:34 PM ET
ISIS Second-in-Command Ayad al-Jumaili Killed in Airstrike: Iraqi Military
by NBC NEWS

BAGHDAD — The ISIS deputy believed to be second-in-command to elusive leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has purportedly been killed, an Iraqi military spokesman said Saturday.

Ayad al-Jumaili died in an airstrike conducted by the Iraqis that targeted a meeting of ISIS commanders in Al-Qa'im in the western Anbar province, said Brig. Gen. Yahya Rasool of Iraq's Joint Operation Command. He cited military intelligence.

Rasool said ISIS' director of administrative affairs, Salem Mudafar Al-Ajmi, also known as Abu Khatab, was killed in the raid. No date was given for the operation.

Rasool also described Jumaili as ISIS' minister of war, but his ranking within the terror group is not officially known and ISIS has made no mention of him previously. He was also known as Abu Yayha, the Iraqis said.

U.S. military officials told NBC News they have not confirmed the Iraqi military's report.

Iraqi State TV first announced Jumaini's death in an on-screen news flash.

In September, the Pentagon said it had confirmed that a U.S. airstrike killed another ISIS second-in-command, Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, who also served as the group's main spokesman.

ISIS previously said al-Adnani died in an Aug. 30 strike in al-Bab in Syria's devastated Aleppo province.

Al-Adnani's death came less than six months after two other top ISIS officials — finance minister Haji Iman and No. 3 Omar al-Shishani — were also reportedly killed.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis...


Region of al-Qaim

BBC Documentary 2017 - The History of ISIS | PBS Documentary

Link: https://youtu.be/YLHkVes4I2Y

Source: Youtube

Joby Warrick's Washington Post site - Democracy dies in darkness:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/people...

Source: Washington Post

Mostly Human - CNN - Hacker Down: ISIS' Twitter Star

http://money.cnn.com/mostly-human/hac...

Source: CNN

a) One of the folks interviewed said that some of these susceptible people bought into ISIS as being just another big anti authority group and didn't think too much about everything else? They were folks just looking for "belonging"? Do you buy that? He said that a lot of hackers get into this by being disaffected or disaffected youths.

b) The rapper thinks that these folks get into this and do not know what they have gotten into and then they are over their heads. Do you believe that this is possible? Disenfranchised youth who feel hopeless?

Death of a Terrorist - New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml...

The Rise of ISIS from Regional Terror to Global Threat - See more at: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/th...

Source: Wilson Center - webcast - video

What ISIS really wants - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...

Thank you Harmke for the add

More on Today's Situation:

Slate:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slates...

Time Magazine:
http://time.com/4725723/donald-trump-...

Boston Herald:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/nati...

Daily Mail - UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

On The Record: President Trump Vs. Private Citizen Trump On Syria
http://www.npr.org/2017/04/04/5226270...

The Guardian - UK
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/l...

Reported by Reuters today:
Islamic State says U.S. 'being run by an idiot'
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa...

St. Petersburg bombing carried out by 'suicide' attacker
By Tim Lister, Euan McKirdy and Angela Dewan, CNN
Updated 4:08 PM ET, Tue April 4, 2017

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/04/europe/...

Source: CNN

'Chemical attack' in Syria draws international outrage
UN to investigate potential war crimes after dozens, including children, die in rebel-held town of Idlib province

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04...

Source: Al Jazeera

Note: Nobody has blamed ISIS or rebels on this one other than the Syrian regime or the Russians; the UN appears to be blaming the Syrian regime

Does not appear to be ISIS - regarding yesterday's attack in Syria - the Russian one appears to be ISIS related.

Syria chemical 'attack': Russia rebel weapons claim rejected

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-...

Source: BBC

Abdullah and Trump are united against ISIS, divided on refugees
CNN Digital Expansion 2017
By Dan Merica, CNN
Updated 3:23 PM ET, Wed April 5, 2017

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politic...

Source: CNN

US warns of unilateral Syria moves if UN fails to act
Ambassador Nikki Haley warns US could be 'compelled to take action' after suspected chemical attack in Syria
NEWS - SYRIA'S CIVIL WAR- 55 MINUTES AGO - April 5, 2017

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04...

Source: Al Jazeera

Chlorine has been used by Assad in the past but this is not a chlorine attack but Sarin Gas according to authorities - there seem to be different reports

FEATURES - SYRIA'S CIVIL WAR - 23 MARCH 2017
How chlorine gas became a weapon in Syria's civil war
Syria's chlorine problem: the human toll of chlorine attacks in six years of civil war.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/feat...

Source: Al Jazeera

"It is definitely very scary if you are a physician in a small hospital with dozens or hundreds of patients that are suffocating and you don't know what to do. The main reason chlorine was used in Syria was to cause panic and to force people to flee." -- Zaher Sahloul, a former president of Syrian American Medical Society

Daily Mail: (NOT CHLORINE BUT SARIN GAS)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

SARIN GAS - JORDAN KING AND TRUMP

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

Source: Daily Mail

Russia does not want to hear any evil I guess at UN - cups ears - Russia can deny all they want but they cannot hide from this any longer


Russian deputy ambassador Vladimir Safronkov accused Syrian rebels of fabricating evidence

Some NPR discussions about Syria with Warrick:

Journalist Discusses The Rise Of ISIS And Its Future In Syria And Iraq -a 2015 interview

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/30/4447212...

Source: NPR

Fox News:

Pro-ISIS hackers release 'kill list' with 8,786 targets in US, UK
Cristina Corbin By Cristina Corbin Published April 05, 2017 FoxNews.com

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/...

Source: Fox News

Key Points on Sarin: The ‘Most Volatile’ of Nerve Agents
By RUSSELL GOLDMAN APRIL 6, 2017

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/wo...

Source: The New York Times

More:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/wo...

Soil samples from Syria chemical attack sent to western agencies

https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...

Source: The Guardian

Stockholm terror attack: Suspect reportedly posted ISIS videos on Facebook
By Samuel Chamberlain Published April 08, 2017

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/...

Source: Fox News

The moment Stockholm police catch the third beer truck 'terrorist' after a dramatic high-speed car chase: 'ISIS-supporting' Uzbeki father-of-four, 39, is arrested before another suspect is led away in handcuffs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

Source: Daily Mail

Welcome Nick - we are glad to have you join the discussion. I will post this now and add to it when I find something that I am looking for and then do an edit - OK now I realized what is wrong - you have posted on the wrong thread - this is the glossary thread - you should just move your post to the discussion thread and that would be better - that is the main discussion area - here is the link: ( I can post with you there) - the glossary thread is where I post ancillary helpful information etc.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Thanks Bentley - so stupid of me! I had both threads open at the same time and posted in the wrong one. I have reposted and deleted.

ISIS strikes Coptic Churches on Palm Sunday

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/09/middlee...

U.S. Special Forces Kill ISIS Fighters, Repel Attack in Syria
by COURTNEY KUBE

U.S. Special Forces helped repel an ISIS attack on a military base in southern Syria on Saturday and killed all the ISIS fighters, two U.S. military officials confirmed.

ISIS attacked an entry gate at the Al Tanf garrison with a vehicle-borne IED, followed by 20 to 30 ISIS fighters, some wearing suicide vests.

At the time of the attack, there were American military forces at the base, as well as others nearby on patrol. They all responded, along with other coalition members and Syrian opposition forces, with direct fire and airstrikes.

All of the ISIS fighters were killed and there were no American casualties.

Source: NBC News

Israel shuts Egypt border crossing amid threat of more 'imminent' Isis attacks

Decision comes day after jihadhist group claims responsibility for twin bomb attacks on Coptic Christian churches in Tanta and Alexandria

Ian Ditch Monday 10 April 2017 13:32 BST

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/doe...

http://www.worde.org/publications/com...

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/02/w...

http://www.politico.eu/article/uzbeki...

I think these should work!

Success Timmy - you can't do a copy and paste of a post without doing an edit and then copying and pasting the original urls.

Pope Tawadros II, the head of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church, visits Bethany beyond the Jordan river, the site believed to be of Jesus Christ's baptism, west of Amman, on September 5, 2016. / AFP / Khalil MAZRAAWI

Very interesting article:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origi...

About Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Ta...

More:
http://www.kuna.net.kw/ArticleDetails...
http://www.wbrc.com/story/35105137/ch...

Source(s): Kuna.net, WBRC, Wikipedia, Al-Monitor, Getty Images

Pope Francis - Pope of the Roman Catholic Church

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Fr...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...


Pope Francis arrives for an ecumenical Mass in Lund, Sweden, on Oct. 31, 2016. (Andrew Medichini/Reuters)

Source(s): Reuters, Washington Post, Wikipedia

According to Business Insider:

IRAQ: ISIS has lost most of the land it seized
Associated Press

BAGHDAD (AP) — The Iraqi military says the Islamic State group has lost more than three-fourths of the territory it seized when it swept across the country in the summer of 2014.

Brig. Gen. Yahya Rasool, a military spokesman, says the extremist group currently controls less than 30,000 square kilometers (12,000 sq. miles) in Iraq, or 6.8 percent of the country's territory, down from more than 40 percent at its height.

The extremists have suffered a string of defeats over the past year in both Iraq and Syria, and were driven out of the eastern half of Mosul, Iraq's largest city, in January.

U.S.-backed Iraqi forces are currently battling the militants in the more densely populated western Mosul. Rasool says more than half of western Mosul has been retaken from the militants.

Source: Business Insider

More:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

NICK'S POST

Bentley, your response in message 153 is really interesting and has given me a lot to think about.

Bentley wrote: 'It was not the American troops fault nor the fault of any other global troops there'
Yes, I quite agree, and I think Warrick does to. When I said the fault of 'the Americans'; I meant at a higher, decision-making level. Not at the level of the guys just trying to do their job.

Do you think that Warrick was wrong in his description of the American occupation in chapters 8 and 9, and how it failed due to mistakes made by the Americans?

Warrick says: '[...] the initial greeting from Iraqi citizens was not so different from the exultant reception the Bush administration officials had predicted before the war.
'The thing is, people really were glad to see us,' said "Mike", a retired diplomat whose employement as a security contractor excluded him from using his real name. ' '[...] around Baghdad, everyone was delighted to see us.'
But Iraqi views hardened after weeks of frenzied looting of everything from government offices to priceless museum artifacts to the rebar on newly constructed buildings, Mike said. Having neither the mandate nor the military-police brigades to restore order, U.S. forces cam across as both impotent and indifferent to Iraqi perceptions of injustice and suffering.' p. 171

Bentley wrote: 'the Iraqi police and new military were not that seasoned or ready'
Warrick blames this on the American decision to ban Baath party members from positions of authority. Because Saddam had insisted that everyone in authority must be a Baathist, the Americans had disqualified every competent and experienced professional from doing their job!

We put these people out on the streets - people who had the tools and knew how to use them,' Richer said. p. 172

It hard to see how this is the fault of anyone except the Americans.

Bentley wrote: 'they were told they were leaving and there was nobody to fill the vacuum' and from the Times: 'But ending the U.S. troop presence in Iraq was an overwhelmingly popular demand among Iraqis, and Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki appears to have been unwilling to take the political risk of extending it.'

Warrick addresses why this was popular, though. First, Americans failed to prevent rampant criminality, then they alienated all the professionals who were listed as Baathist. It gets worse. On p.177 he describes Americans shooting in a crowd of unarmed protestors killing 17 people. Then to add insult to injury they refused to pay a reasonable blood money.
'Zaydan was furious. 'Three thousand dollars? That's what you pay to replace one of your police dogs!' he fumed.
After that, we realized that the Americans had no good intentions,' he said. p. 178

McChrystal describes Americans searching for terrorists in Iraqi homes, breaking the taboo of respecting the privacy of women's quarter: 'But in the eyes of the women he saw something else - an intensity of emotion that would stick with him for years.
'It was pure unadulterated hatred,' McChrystal said.

No wonder the Iraqis wanted the Americans out in a hurry, when they couldn't keep the peace, murdered people and disrespected the culture.

Nick - again with all due respect - first you are posting spoilers - actual quotes from pages that have not yet been assigned and that is not allowed on the main discussion thread without at the very least spoiler html. It will have to be moved and placed in the glossary which I will do (Moved) And I will move my response to your post there as well. The conversation can continue there - on a spoiler thread. This thread isn't it (the main discussion thread is not a spoiler thread)

Let me say this here before moving your post (Moved) - the multinational force and the US did keep the peace and when they left in 12/11 there was not the problem of ISIS taking over the country; like there was when the US was called mid 2014 with pleadings of help from the Iraqis again (these pleading came from the same theocratic leaders that were forcing everybody to leave in the first place) - and like I said before - oops they implied with their pleadings for air strikes and for help - we think we made a mistake in saying you had to leave when we were full of our ourselves and our capabilities and did not appreciate what you did for us the first time which is exactly what happened. In fact they obviously were now worried about their own loss of control and power with ISIS right outside of Baghdad. That is the only reason they called and asked for air strikes. They were afraid of ISIS rolling into Baghdad and the country falling. Plain and simple.

Also nobody was murdered intentionally aside from the terrorists, nor was their culture disrespected - quite the opposite (the troops did not do the looting from the government offices or the museums (the Iraqis did that too) - nor were the troops there from any of the other countries to become involved in a sectarian civil war caused by insurgents from other countries in the Middle East and from folks like Zarqawi inciting the natives to kill themselves. There were not enough boots on the ground from the multinational force to do that - they were not there to occupy a country - but still the US tried to help and the British did too to a certain extent. But the sacrifice of life was certainly much more on the US side and for what really. Everything that was done for the Iraqis they lost for themselves as soon as the multinational troops left - the last to leave were the British in May 2011, and finally the US and NATO in December of 2011. Not because anyone was throwing in the towel - in fact quite the opposite.

Nick I believe you are studying in the UK and you may or may not be British - but having said that - the Iraqis did not want the British there either.

One example of another country that comes to mind is when the British occupied India - everybody was well behaved - but as soon as they left and they got the independence that they said they were craving - mass slaughter took place between the Hindus and the Muslims. Do we blame the British for the Hindus and the Muslims having a civil war and having to live in separate countries after they left - No although the British did agree to it. At least I would not blame the British troops.

A lot of folks could talk about the fact that the British did not want to relinquish control of India and Ghandi and Churchill did not get along and your own leaders were the stumbling blocks but you were not responsible for the slaughter that took place after you left or while you were leaving because certain sects wanted to have things their own way and thwart the democratic process. It has taken India a long time to come into their own because of their not being able to take full control of their own country and yet after the growing pains of leading a country on their own - they are doing very well now but still have problems. These problems they did not have when the British were running things. But many in India did not appreciate the British during and after and it showed.

If however we would like to blame politicians for getting us into Iraq in the first place because of WMDs that were not there when we arrived or when Colin Powell was giving his speech to the UN - then here is a list to start with - Bush, Cheney, Tenet, Libby, Powell, Tony Blair - but the troops just did their job when they got there.

I am going to have to move your post to the glossary thread (Done). We have not been assigned the pages where you have quoted so you are doing spoilers.

Remember what I have said about the discussion in 156 and at the very beginning of the thread. Historically I have instructed on all single thread discussions to use spoiler html - but for the entire discussion this time as an experiment - I stated that for the pages we have already covered (all of the previous assigned pages) and the assigned reading for the current week - you did not have to use the spoiler html - but if you went beyond the assigned reading it was mandated (you used specific quotes from pages not yet assigned which are spoilers).

I am forced to move it to the glossary thread. (Moved)

Note One: Also I especially think that your last sentence is quite inflammatory, quite untrue and most unfair but in a debate and discussion there will always be arguments and that is what a debate is made up of.

Note Two: Saddam Hussein was a bad guy and he did use weapons of mass destruction many times against his own people - Halabja for starters - a very bad guy but one thing he knew how to do was control his country and the bad guys - he just killed them. There were countless UN resolutions against Saddam but I doubt we would have ISIS if he were still there. A bad, bad guy - no doubt about it but he knew how to maintain control and he had used weapons of mass destruction many times but he did not have them when Colin Powell was making the case at the UN (at least none were found) - Remember the moniker that one of his cousins who was also the Defense Minister had - Chemical Ali. He also used them against Iran - 1980s according to many reports - NPR - Foreign Policy, etc. And chemical warfare was outlawed then.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/17/opi...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/wor...
https://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/center-s...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/200...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-wa...

I got excited when Timmy mentioned "The Secret History of ISIS" I thought maybe he was watching CBC. ;-) Turns out PBS has a documentary entitled the same.

CBC's The Passionate Eye showed "The Secret History of ISIS" this past Sunday evening. I will attempt to post the link.



http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episodes/the-secret-history-of-isis1

Hi Bentley, thanks for moving it. I don't think I've quite understood the rules about spoilers.
I thought that the reading for this week, Chapters 6 - 11, didn't have to be behind spoilers. I was quoting chapters 8 and 9, I thought I was safe. Apologies to anyone who had their read spoiled by that!

I'd also like to apologise for being inflammatory. It wasn't my intention, and I thought I had backed it up with reference to the book. I don't know how it can be unfair or untrue when I'm just quoting the text? Unless you're saying that Warrick was being unfair and untrue in his description of what happened?

No problems Nick - no worries (smile).

Single thread discussions are harder than multi thread and we are trying this experiment where we do not need to use spoiler html as long as you are discussing the book's content only through the end of the current week's reading assignment and of course anything that came before.

And we have the spoiler thread for sidebars and more extensive conversations. Before we were using the spoiler html for every post so it was more intrusive. This has been working out pretty well overall.

I just feel that the poor troops from any country have to bear the brunt of the politicians back home or of the country's leaders they are trying to help. It is sort of like the Jerry Maguire movie - "Help me - help you". Unfortunately it does not always work out that way and Iraq is a prime example. No worries Nick - all good.

Bentley wrote: "I just feel that the poor troops from any country have to bear the brunt of the politicians back home or of the country's leaders they are trying to help. It is sort of like the Jerry Maguire movie - "Help me - help you". Unfortunately it does not always work out that way and Iraq is a prime example. No worries Nick - all good."
Yes, I agree! The poor troops have such a hard time when it's the politicians and leaders who are making decisions that can really make or break the way things turn out, regardless of how hard-working or well-intentioned the soldiers are!

Ditto!

Michael wrote: "I got excited when Timmy mentioned "The Secret History of ISIS" I thought maybe he was watching CBC. ;-) Turns out PBS has a documentary entitled the same.

CBC's The Passionate Eye showed "The Sec..."

Michael I had already posted the link on the discussion thread (smile) but a link here is good too.

By the way - the links in both of your posts are taking one back to goodreads.

Sick. I claim rookie status.