The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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GE, Chapter 38
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Mod
I agree that I"m getting tired of Pip mooning over Estella. She's not worth it, Pip. Get a life.
He's turned from a dweeb in recent chapters to a sap in this chapter.
Peter may see development. I don't.
Mod
I agree that I"m getting tired of Pip mooning over Estella. She's not ..."
Patience, Everyman, patience. Rome wasn't built in a day as the cliche says and Pip's reformation may take awhile, and may, at the end even be incomplete. But for now, patience. :-))
Everyman wrote: "Peter may see development. I don't. "No - when it comes to Estella, there seems to never be any development.
I agree with whoever said, in a previous discussion, that Estella proves she has a bit of affection for Pip merely by the fact that she tries to warn him away. For all the good it does.
Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall for some of Estella's interactions with other people, like Drummle? We never see her unless it's through Pip's eyes, with the exception of Herbert's comments. Is she witty and charming? Or, like Edith Dombey, is she cold and imperious?
Mod
Mod
She carried a bare candle in her hand
Chapter 38
John McLenan
1861
Text Illustrated:
"At last, when the night was slow to creep on towards two o’clock, I felt that I absolutely could no longer bear the place as a place to lie down in, and that I must get up. I therefore got up and put on my clothes, and went out across the yard into the long stone passage, designing to gain the outer courtyard and walk there for the relief of my mind. But I was no sooner in the passage than I extinguished my candle; for I saw Miss Havisham going along it in a ghostly manner, making a low cry. I followed her at a distance, and saw her go up the staircase. She carried a bare candle in her hand, which she had probably taken from one of the sconces in her own room, and was a most unearthly object by its light. Standing at the bottom of the staircase, I felt the mildewed air of the feast-chamber, without seeing her open the door, and I heard her walking there, and so across into her own room, and so across again into that, never ceasing the low cry. After a time, I tried in the dark both to get out, and to go back, but I could do neither until some streaks of day strayed in and showed me where to lay my hands. During the whole interval, whenever I went to the bottom of the staircase, I heard her footstep, saw her light pass above, and heard her ceaseless low cry."
Commentary:
McLenan's illustration underscores Dickens's adaptation of the old Gothic Novel of ghosts, monsters, and maidens in distress. He uses the witch of myth and legend, and the nightmarish reality of entrapment to generate suspense visually here. In this waking nightmare and disturbingly psychological sequence surrounding Pip's first overnight stay at Satis House, Dickens reinvents the Gothic elements of Mrs. Radcliffe in the Sensation mode. The modern English country house replaces the Apenine castle of The Mysteries of Udolpho (1797), and Dickens makes his setting insistently real (as well as hauntingly unsettling) because he is transfornming an actual house, Restoration House in Rochester, into Satis House. But, more significantly, Dickens replaces creaky doors, shadowy, candle-lit corridors, and airy phantoms of Radcliffe with psychological terrors. Here, for example, the apparition of Miss Havisham haunts Pip's dreams, then the actual Miss Havisham appears in the gallery, crying out and holding an unshielded candle.
Mod
"'What!' said Estella, 'do you reproach me for being cold? You'"
Chapter 38
F. A. Fraser
1877
Text Illustrated:
"We were seated by the fire, as just now described, and Miss Havisham still had Estella’s arm drawn through her own, and still clutched Estella’s hand in hers, when Estella gradually began to detach herself. She had shown a proud impatience more than once before, and had rather endured that fierce affection than accepted or returned it.
“What!” said Miss Havisham, flashing her eyes upon her, “are you tired of me?”
“Only a little tired of myself,” replied Estella, disengaging her arm, and moving to the great chimney-piece, where she stood looking down at the fire.
“Speak the truth, you ingrate!” cried Miss Havisham, passionately striking her stick upon the floor; “you are tired of me.”
Estella looked at her with perfect composure, and again looked down at the fire. Her graceful figure and her beautiful face expressed a self-possessed indifference to the wild heat of the other, that was almost cruel.
“You stock and stone!” exclaimed Miss Havisham. “You cold, cold heart!”
“What?” said Estella, preserving her attitude of indifference as she leaned against the great chimney-piece and only moving her eyes; “do you reproach me for being cold? You?”
“Are you not?” was the fierce retort.
“You should know,” said Estella. “I am what you have made me. Take all the praise, take all the blame; take all the success, take all the failure; in short, take me.”
“O, look at her, look at her!” cried Miss Havisham, bitterly; “Look at her so hard and thankless, on the hearth where she was reared! Where I took her into this wretched breast when it was first bleeding from its stabs, and where I have lavished years of tenderness upon her!”
Mod
Well, Rome was not built in a day, and it did not fall in a day. I think it fair to say that Pip is one of the most complex characters we have met in Dickens. There are still many chapters to go, and perhaps even revelations to be found.
Hopefully we will all be able to weigh in on the novel when completed.
Until then, I wonder if Pip ever heard of Rome? :-))
Mod
"'Why should I look at him?' returned Estella
Chapter 38
F. A. Fraser
1876
Dickens's Great Expectations, volume 6, The Household Edition
Text Illustrated:
"At a certain Assembly Ball at Richmond (there used to be Assembly Balls at most places then), where Estella had outshone all other beauties, this blundering Drummle so hung about her, and with so much toleration on her part, that I resolved to speak to her concerning him. I took the next opportunity: which was when she was waiting for Mrs. Brandley to take her home, and was sitting apart among some flowers, ready to go. I was with her, for I almost always accompanied them to and from such places.
"Are you tired, Estella?"
"Rather, Pip."
"You should be."
"Say rather, I should not be; for I have my letter to Satis House to write, before I go to sleep."
"Recounting to-night's triumph?" said I. "Surely a very poor one, Estella."
"What do you mean? I didn't know there had been any."
"Estella," said I, "do look at that fellow in the corner yonder, who is looking over here at us."
"Why should I look at him?" returned Estella, with her eyes on me instead. "What is there in that fellow in the corner yonder — to use your words — that I need look at?"
"Indeed, that is the very question I want to ask you," said I. "For he has been hovering about you all night."
"Moths, and all sorts of ugly creatures," replied Estella, with a glance towards him, "hover about a lighted candle. Can the candle help it?"
"No," I returned; "but cannot the Estella help it?"
"Well!" said she, laughing, after a moment, "perhaps. Yes. Anything you like."
"But, Estella, do hear me speak. It makes me wretched that you should encourage a man so generally despised as Drummle. You know he is despised."
Mod
Mod
We're 2/3 of the way through the book, and it's still not on my horizon.
Mod
Well, Rome was not built in a day, and it did not fall in a day. I think it fair to say that Pip is ..."
Thinking of how many chapters are left, and there are quite a few, I was sitting here earlier wondering which ending we should use. See,I'm planning ahead.
Mod
Well, Rome was not built in a day, and it did not fall in a day. I think it fair to sa..."
Kim
I hope we post both endings. I'm guessing there could be some lively debate on them. No, I'm not guessing ... I know there will be lively debate.
Mod
We're 2/3 of the way through the book, and it's still not on my horizon."
Look up. Look way up. Is it a bird? A plane? No, it's seven hills on the horizon. We must be near Rome.
Mod
Well, Rome was not built in a day, and it did not fall in a day. I think i..."
Both are fine with me.
Mod
I noticed in an earlier thread that Pip remarks to Estella that she talks about herself as though she were a completely different person, and this kind of indifference is also mirrored in the beginning of the quarrel between Miss Havisham and Estella:
"'What!' said Miss Havisham, flashing her eyes upon her, 'are you tired of me?'
'Only a little tired of myself,' replied Estella, disengaging her arm, and moving to the great chimney-piece, where she stood looking down at the fire."
Being tired of herself can also mean being tired of the role she is supposed to play, being tired of being Miss Havisham's instrument of revenge - but at the same time being unable, or too listless, to rebel against it, and reform. Miss Havisham and Estella's bandying words here is a bit like stage language, but incredibly effective. I am reading Trollope just now and once again have to admit that Dickens is by far the more virtuoso story-teller when it comes to painting with language, using vivid colours and lots of paint. It may not always be lifelike, but then I remember Alfred Hitchcock's famous words according to which a film ought to be a piece of cake rather than a piece of life because if people wanted a piece of life they could just stay outside the cinema and safe the money for a ticket.
Mod
What a ghastly set of words. They point out how Miss Havisham has created Estella. Here, I think we find echoes of Shelley's Frankenstein. In both instances we have a situation where the creator is confronted with the creation, and the creation is beyond the comprehension and the control of the creator. Linked to this allusion we have the word "devouring" being repeated in various forms in the novel as well as different instances of eating. The first is the scene in the graveyard where the escaped criminal wants food, and claims he could eat Pip. Next we have the Christmas dinner scene where Pip becomes himself a criminal as he steals food for the criminal.
Another grotesque image of devouring occurs when Miss Havisham arranges the Pocket family around the dining room table and points out where everyone will be "when I am laid on that table." The idea of consumption is highlighted even further when Miss Havisham dictates where each person will "take [their] stations when you come to feast upon me." (My italics)
Consider as well the fight between Pip and Herbert which occurred in a ruined vegetable garden where Pip had been sent "to be fed in the former dog-like manner." Miss Havisham sees the world, her fate, her mission in life as a form of consumption or being consumed. Miss Havisham tells Pip that "The mice have gnawed at [the wedding cake] and sharper teeth than teeth of mice have gnawed at me."
Dickens troupe of food and consumption reverberate throughout the novel. The meaning of these repeated images is deeply significant. Dickens must be preparing us for something major.
Mod
Egad. What a comparison! But strangely appropriate.
Mod
Once again, your original approach to a particular detail, this time, the role of eating in the novel, astonishes and inspires me. Let me add, then, two more observations. First, when you point out that Pip is sent into the garden, where he takes his food in a dog-like manner, I feel reminded of the convict, who also rather devoured his food and conjured up the image of a hungry dog to Pip.
Another detail is that some character in the novel, I can't remember who, points out to Pip that no one ever saw Miss Havisham eat food. That almost likens her to a kind of vampire - Dracula would take no food in the Stoker novel - and makes it more haunting that she seems to devour Estella's beauty, hanging on it like some kind of bloodthirsty bat.
Let's keep in mind the aspect of Miss Havisham's having created Estella in the way that Frankenstein created his monster. I have a feeling that it will soon play a role.
Mod
Once again, your original approach to a particular detail, this time, the role of eating in the novel, astonishes and inspires me. Let me add, then, two more observations. First, when you p..."
Tristram
Yes. Eating is a troupe that has been part of our journey so far. The manner of eating does remind me of how the convict ate, and was described as eating. We shall see ...
Peter - I love these insights about eating as a trope, and would surely have missed some of the references if you had not picked them up. Thank you!Kim - I agree the parallel is very strong between Mrs Skewton, that grotesque harridan, and her daughter, the widowed Edith Granger, who at that point was a haughty individual. I seem to remember we commented at the time that this old crone was almost a practice run for Miss Havisham, but until now I had not considered that the two "daughters" had similar personalities!
I find this chapter very upsetting with the almost grovelling Miss Havisham. If she was not a broken woman before, she seems to have reached a new low level of degradation now, contrasting with Estella' pride. It is such a sad chapter, and I feel Pip's obsession almost fades into the background. Dickens is writing particularly strong women in this novel.
Mary Lou wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Peter may see development. I don't. "No - when it comes to Estella, there seems to never be any development.
I agree with whoever said, in a previous discussion, that Estella p..."
No - when it comes to Estella, there seems to never be any development.
I'm in Peter's boat regarding Estella and Pip. Pip has shown me in the last few chapters how he is able to selflessly act for the betterment of somebody else, seeking the advancement of Herbert's career without anything in return is a vast improvement from the Pip I've considered wretched. Again, I think we have to keep in mind how young Pip is; how young we all once were acting on impulse, making rash decisions without thinking of the consequences, and thinking of only ourselves. Pip wanting to help Herbert was a major turning point for me, it was showing of true altruism on Pip's part...There is goodness in him yet.
I agree with whoever said, in a previous discussion, that Estella proves she has a bit of affection for Pip merely by the fact that she tries to warn him away. For all the good it does.
Yes, I believe this as well. If she didn't care, then why say anything at all?
Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall for some of Estella's interactions with other people, like Drummle?
Oh, yes...absolutely. :) I do wonder what their dynamics together would be like, Mary Lou. If she is as controlling of Drummle as she is of Pip?
Mod
I found Chapter 38 to be quite important, as Pip's reality continues to unfold, but his being "aware" of his new reality is what makes the chapter. Miss Havisham has raised Estella to wreak havoc on the lives of any, and all men, by being the object of their affections while returning only cold hearted affirmations. What Miss Havisham didn't realize happening was Estella giving her a dose of her "non-loving" medicine. As it becomes obvious to Pip that Estella is pulling away from Miss Havisham, Miss Havisham in turn appears weak while pining for Estella like a jilted lover. It is here, Pip realizes his own behavior in regards to Estella, and how she's monopolized his heart....His life? Pip says,
I saw in this, wretched though it made me, and bitter the sense of dependence and even of degradation that it awakened - I saw in this, that Estella was set to wreak Miss Havisham's revenge on men, and that she was not to be given to me until she had gratified it for a term. I saw in this, a reason for her being beforehand assigned to me. Sending her out to attract and torment and do mischief, Miss Havisham sent her with the malicious assurance that she was beyond the reach of all admirers, and that all who staked upon that cast were secured to lose. I saw in this, that I, too, was tormented by a perversion of ingenuity, even while the prize was reserved for me. I saw in this, the reason for my being staved off so long, and the reason for my late guardian's declining to commit himself to the formal knowledge of such a scheme. In a word, I saw in this, Miss Havisham as I had her then and there before my eyes, and always had had her before my eyes; and I saw in this, the distinct shadow of the darkened and unhealthy house in which her life was hidden from the sun.Chapter 38 is both heartbreaking and suffocating, as Pip's little world is slowly caving in on him with the addition of the information regarding Drummle courting Estella. Pip's newly recognized awareness of himself, Miss Havisham, and Drummle as well; in their associations with Estella and her impact on them, sheds light on just how vulnerable and lost Pip is in his obsession for Estella. She's a habit he doesn't know how to quit, and she's the dark hole he can't dig himself out of. It must be a terrible feeling to be aware of one's own flaws while not having any idea in remedying the situation. I felt Pip to be very alone in this moment.
I always wondered why Mr. Jaggers referred to Drummle as the spider, and now, I see why. How clever is this metaphor?
Mod
I think it is a bit of both: On the one hand, Pip cannot fail to notice that Herbert had kept out of debt before he made his acquaintance and that his own reckless behaviour with money had induced his friend, who cannot afford it, to copy this spendthrift course. On the other hand, I think Pip would have tried to help Herbert anyway sooner or later because they have become very good friends.
Mod
Now that you highlighted certain passages in Pip's reflexion on his thoughts at that time, Pip's attitude strikes me as even vainer than I thought (I just can't help it, I seem to be determined to see the bad only in Pip and not even to consider his youth as able to attenuate his follies - I really seem to have it in for Pip ;-)) But my thought is: Is it not rather vain and arrogant in Pip to think that while Miss Havisham wants to make use of Estella in order to wreck the hearts and souls of so many men, it is he, Pip Pirrip of the village smithy, of all men, that is going to be exempted from her insatiable revenge? What makes him so different from all other young men that Miss Havisham should spare him?
Another thought: Seeing that Miss Havisham uses Estella as an instrument to inflict pain and misery, Pip readily condones in Estella's instrumentalization, without raising a word against it, just because 1) he deems himself the person who will finally get the prize, and 2) he lives under the impression of being sponsored by Miss Havisham.
Pip's character is becoming more and more despicable here, to me.
This installment is only one chapter, Chapter 38 and as Pip says at the end of the last chapter, this one is all about Estella. And him, and Miss Havisham, but it revolves around Estella, if anything in Pip's life could revolve around anyone but himself and his expectations. I was not looking forward to a chapter all about Estella because what I thought would happen did indeed happen. Pip spent the entire time whining about Estella, Estella doesn't treat him right, Estella just uses him to make others jealous, on and on. If he knows she is doing this but still follows after her, it is his own fault the way he is treated. The chapter begins with:
"If that staid old house near the Green at Richmond should ever come to be haunted when I am dead, it will be haunted, surely, by my ghost. O the many, many nights and days through which the unquiet spirit within me haunted that house when Estella lived there! Let my body be where it would, my spirit was always wandering, wandering, wandering, about that house."
Although Pip is stalking Estella,he is not treated as a serious suitor. Estella's feeling towards him haven't changed - I spent a bit of time wondering how a lady who never seemed to have any feelings at all could feel the same way as she always did to Pip. He is allowed to accompany Estella everywhere she goes, but she usually ignores him.
"In Mrs. Brandley’s house and out of Mrs. Brandley’s house, I suffered every kind and degree of torture that Estella could cause me. The nature of my relations with her, which placed me on terms of familiarity without placing me on terms of favor, conduced to my distraction. She made use of me to tease other admirers, and she turned the very familiarity between herself and me to the account of putting a constant slight on my devotion to her."
She even warns him not to care so much - more than once - saying that if he doesn't understand what she means he must be blind.
Estella is going to visit Miss Havisham and she asks Pip to take her. When they go to visit her they find her in the same room, dressed in the same dress, she is what she has always been. I wonder if she ever washes these clothing. This visit Miss Havisham seems to hang on Estella, more than she ever did before, and seems to be pleading for Estella's attention. Miss Havisham is crushed by her indifference, saying that Estella is tired of her and has a cold heart. To this Estella responds:
"When have you found me false to your teaching? When have you found me unmindful of your lessons? When have you found me giving admission here,” she touched her bosom with her hand, “to anything that you excluded? Be just to me.”
“So proud, so proud!” moaned Miss Havisham, pushing away her gray hair with both her hands.
“Who taught me to be proud?” returned Estella. “Who praised me when I learnt my lesson?”
I'm not sure what Miss Havisham was expecting but I was expecting just what happened. She turned out just the way she was raised, Miss Havisham just didn't realize the cold heart would apply to everyone, even her. Estella reminds me of Edith in this scene of Dombey and Son:
‘What do you mean?’ returned the angry mother. ‘Haven’t you from a child—’
‘A child!’ said Edith, looking at her, ‘when was I a child? What childhood did you ever leave to me? I was a woman—artful, designing, mercenary, laying snares for men—before I knew myself, or you, or even understood the base and wretched aim of every new display I learnt You gave birth to a woman. Look upon her. She is in her pride tonight.’
We are told that for the rest of the visit there was no more revival of the differences between the two, and in all their visits after this the two women were the same as always. Pip realizes that until Miss Havisham has her revenge on all men, Estella will never be given to him. Then we switch from Miss Havisham and find Pip at his club the "Finches". And while there, Drummle makes a toast to Estella, which sends Pip into a rage. Pip insists that Estella knows nothing about Drummle and after some more battling with each other it is decided that Drummle should provide proof that he does know her and if he does Pip will apologize and the arguement will be over. Much to Pip's surprise Drummle does have proof of Estella's knowing him and Pip is devastated, but it gets even worse, when Estella tells him it is true.