J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

Suilad mellon nin!

This is where we can discuss Akallabeth and Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age chapter of The Silmarillion.

Okay. I finished this a few days ago. It's always hard for me to comment right after I read it. I always need a few days to let it settle.

Of course it opens with Men falling swiftly under Morgoth's dominion, "they listened to his evil and cunning words" ... SIGH!

So at least Morgoth finally got shut away in the VOID, whew! but ... "the seeds he planted still grew and sprouted".

Of course they did!!!!

Avallone has to come from Avalon? right?

At least we get the history of the Dunedain:)

I like getting more background on Sauron and the One Ring (just a tidbit) ... the three Numenoreans he ensnared with the Nine rings ... and the Ring-wraiths ... I guess we'll get more of that in next section?

So the men had a time of flowering then they "fell"/succumbed like almost everyone else in TS to their darker natures ...

I did really like the part where Isildur (love that name) stole a fruit form the White Tree.

It was really dark, the following part about Sauron felling the White Tree and burning it first in the "mighty temple" he had built. Kind of dark and powerful.

Sauron continues Morgoth's work, sowing discord, feeding the egos and greed of men ...

I think it's significant that in this work the good are "the Faithful" ... "for the Faithful are few" and capitalizes faithful. Because without faith in something higher than ourselves and/or some ideal we turn to the darker side.

The arc of this section is really dismal as we are taken to this point: "And there is not now upon Earth any place abiding where the memory of a time without evil is preserved. "

I mean, is that even possible?????

OMG! I LOVE THIS: "and a third time, even as he laughed ... [Sauron] was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss."

That was pretty sweet:D

But ... of course ... his spirit came back to haunt Middle Earth;) so that is how we get THE EYE!!!!!

Okay, onward ... one more section ... I'm expecting Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age to be good!

It's his use of "Atlante" that I notice.

Mary wrote: "It's his use of "Atlante" that I notice."

So you're thinking Atlantis?

Well, it does seem obvious especially after reading his letters that talk about a recurring dream of Atlantis being drowned.

Mary wrote: "Well, it does seem obvious especially after reading his letters that talk about a recurring dream of Atlantis being drowned."

:D

Heidi wrote: "Mary wrote: "Well, it does seem obvious especially after reading his letters that talk about a recurring dream of Atlantis being drowned."

:D"

I also read this somewhere but not in Tolkien's letter form.

Yeah! Sauron 'has fallen' scene was really an 'epic' to me. And then, here's come the Giant Eye! :))

Wita wrote: " Yeah! Sauron 'has fallen' scene was really an 'epic' to me. And then, here's come the Giant Eye! :)) ..."

hehe

Akallabeth

As you can see that in The Silmarillion, Akallabeth part gives us the brief history of Numenor from the glory until its fall. Only some of the characters were mentioned, especially regarding the Kings and Queens of Numenor. But again, thanks to the art pictures, I found a story/tale (it's really a story, not just the brief history). It's 'hidden' in Unfinished Tales and it was called The Mariner's Wife. It's one of my favourite story and it has a sad ending too (but where's in The Silmarillion; including its 'extended' version, UT & HoME, a happy ending story?😃).

It's about Aldarion; the 6th King of Numenor, and his wife, Erendis plus Tar-Ancalime, the daughter and the only child of Aldarion and the first ruling queen of Numenor. The story mainly tells about their unhappy marriage, and the Numenorean royal law's succession and also gives the first hints of the return of the Shadow. I excerpt some parts of the story which I feel can describe what it's told in the tale. One part is on this thread and the other three parts are on illustration thread. Here's as follow:

But when nigh on eight hundred years had passed since the beginning of the Second Age, Tar-Meneldur commanded his son to remain now in Númenor and to cease for a time his eastward voyaging; for he desired to proclaim Aldarion the King's Heir, as had been done at that age of the Heir by the Kings before him. Then Meneldur and his son were reconciled, for that time, and there was peace between them; and amid joy and feasting Aldarion was proclaimed Heir in the hundredth year of his age, and received from his father the title and power of Lord of the Ships and Havens of Númenor. To the feasting in Armenelos came one Beregar from his dwelling in the west of the Isle, and with him came Erendis his daughter. There Almarian the Queen observed her beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin. 10 But Erendis looked upon Aldarion as he rode by, and for his beauty and splendour of bearing she had eyes for little else. Thereafter Erendis entered the household of the Queen, and found favour also with the King; but little did she see of Aldarion, who busied himself in the tending of the forests, being concerned that in days to come timber should not lack in Númenor. Ere long the mariners of the Guild of Venturers became restless, for they were ill content to voyage more briefly and more rarely under lesser commanders; and when six years had passed since the proclamation of the King's Heir Aldarion determined to sail again to Middle-earth. Of the King he got but grudging leave, for he refused his father's urging that he abide in Númenor and seek a wife; and he set sail in the spring of the year. But coming to bid farewell to his mother he saw Erendis amid the Queen's company; and looking on her beauty he divined the strength that lay concealed in her. Then Almarian said to him: "Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son? Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"

"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me."

Erendis believed that these words were spoken also for her ears; and from that time forth her heart was turned wholly to Aldarion, though not in hope. In those days there was no need, by law or custom, that those of the royal house, not even the King's Heir, should wed only with descendants of Elros Tar-Minyatur; but Erendis deemed that Aldarion was too high. Yet she looked on no man with favour thereafter, and every suitor she dismissed.

— Part Two: The Second Age: Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife, Unfinished Tales, J.R.R. Tolkien

Avallone has to come from Avalon? right?

I do think of Avalon when I read Avallone, but The Downfall of Númenor reminds me of Atlantis, though I never read his letters before.

But ... of course ... his spirit came back to haunt Middle Earth;) so that is how we get THE EYE!!!!!

Somehow I completely forgot about the story of the eye of Sauron in LoTR and for a long time I thought the eye in the movie is a creation of Peter Jackson. Or is it not? Because now every time I read about it, I only picture that EYE, nothing else :)

I also don't have many things I can say about Akallabeth and especially Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age. I don't know maybe because mostly I already know about it?

But I did feel excited when Isildur stole a fruit from Nimloth, I was screaming in my head that it's the White Tree of Gondor! It must be Lol.

As for Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age, nothing new I got from this chapter. However I love the feeling when I reached the final page. It's like I just finished traveling from thousands of years, from First Age and now I'm in Fourth Age.

Wita wrote: "i. Akallabeth

As you can see that in The Silmarillion, Akallabeth part gives us the brief history of Numenor from the glory until its fall. Only some of the characters were mentioned, especially ..."

Thanks Wita! I wonder when can I finally read UT and HoME, maybe I should master The Silmarillion first before I get my hand on those books, Lol.

And do you know if Tar-Ancalime has something to do with what Frodo said in LOTR when he light up the light of Earendil? or what Ancalime means? If I'm not wrong he said ""aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima!" ("hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!")

Rachmi wrote: "And do you know if Tar-Ancalime has something to do with what Frodo said in LOTR when he light up the light of Earendil? or what Ancalime means? If I'm not wrong he said ""aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima!" ("hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!")"

Kak Rachmi,
I think what Frodo said about ancalima not refer to Tar-Ancalime from Numenor. It's about the meaning of the word itself that's referred to the light of Earendil. Yet, Ancalime is a name in Quenya, meaning radiance or most bright. Probably, ancalima is kinda a noun/adj. form.

Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age

1. I'm interested in finding more stories regarding Celebrimbor. Especially when I saw one of his art pictures, it was so cruel and terrible. It didn't appear in The Silmarillion. It was in Unfinished Tales I found the story about him. As usual, I excerpt some interesting parts of the story, one is on this thread and the others are on illustration thread. Here's as follow:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Fëanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings (in the revised edition only), and more fully detailed in The Silmarillion (pp.176,276), where he is said to have been the son of Curufin, the fifth son of Fëanor, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth.]

— Part Two: The Second Age: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales, J.R.R. Tolkien

2. After Morgoth has 'gone', Sauron took over his place to be no. 1 'enemy of the state' in Arda. I think Morgoth seems to have a strong will for "I want my Arda!" feeling rather than Sauron. So, what do you guys think about the difference between them in state of 'evil' thinking? Or are they just the same?

3. Finally, for closing our "The Silmarillion" discussion, there's an interesting story about Feanor and Galadriel that probably you might not heard before. It happened when they're still in Valinor. Here's as I excerpt:

Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), 1 and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses.  

Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.  

•••

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

— Part Two: The Second Age: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales, J.R.R. Tolkien

This story reminds me of Gimli. He's lucky than Feanor! :)). Galadriel gave him three stands right away when he only asked her a single one. I notice the using of numbers here; 1, 3 or 3, 1. Are they a special number to Tolkien? Is there a meaning on it? Or it's just a coincidence (just another ordinary numbers)?. I'm curious because Tolkien repeated it in these two different stories.

So, farewell The Silmarillion! What a journey!! Now, here's come The Children of Hurin ... 🙌

Wita wrote: "Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age

1. I'm interested in finding more stories regarding Celebrimbor. Especially when I saw one of his art pictures, it was so cruel and terrible. It didn't app..."

1. Cerebrimbor is surely inherited (is it the right word?) his talent in craftmanship from his father. He created the three rings of power, right?

2. In my opinion Morgoth seems more evil than Sauron. I don't have much proves to back up my opinion :) But to me he's more cunning and also more powerful than Sauron. He's the most powerful Valar while Sauron is justa Maia. He's the very first antagonist in Middle-earth universe while Sauron is just his servant. I need to read more, obviously, to compare them but that's what I feel when I read TS.

3. Hah! I thought the same thing, Feanor can be a badass character, maybe much more badass thatn Gimli but Gimli surely luckier than him, as he can make Galadriel gave him 3 stands of her hair. And you may call me weird but at first I thought that number is a typo :D

Hey Ladies:)

So ... I finished Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. Some of it I really enjoyed.

As far Morgoth vs. Sauron, Morgoth is horribly evil but Sauron is also especially wicked, and very treacherous in the way that he could hide himself through a veil of "goodness". i.e. "he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary", plus he made the rings!!!!

Again, the Silvan Elves in the woods, the highroad led to the west gate of Khazad-dum ... is that where Peter Jackson pulled the opening for The Hobbit?

Maybe that is why I loved the first movie?

But then for the next movie they just made stuff up and that was what made them awful because they had nothing to do with the original tale?


So the rings, again we have the elves and dwarves resisting, "the dwarves proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to the shadows" (Honestly, I love the dwarves, lol... but as usual, SIGH! in Tolkien's work men are weak and easily manipulated ... "Men proved easier to ensnare" ....

I found the history of Gondor and Osgiliath interesting, including the White Tree, plus there is some of the "palantiri" which is what Pippin looks at in the movie?

and yes ..."the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even among the great Elves and Men could endure"

Then: "Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-gilad and Elendil... with the hilt shard of Narail Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron, and took it for his own." That is the scene opening the movie Fellowship of the Ring?

Then there is the section: "the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed ..." So that is after LoTR?!?!?

But then it goes on to Gandalf's/Mithrandir's story which I loved and parts of which are lifted for LoTR?? Also, enjoyed Saruman's background and his history of secretly searching for the ring.

Then we get that small glimpse of the Halflings, which became the hobbits:)

So, yes Rachmi, it's an amazing feeling to be finished reading The Silmarillion ... for the first time, hehe.

And Wita, I love that picture of Celebrimbor you posted on the other third and imagine his story would be interesting!