L.E.a D.s Book Club discussion

This thread is for discussing Sorcery & Cecelia: or The Enchanted Chocolate Pot, the first book in the The Cecelia and Kate Novels.

Lanelle,

I'll try to get a copy of the book tomorrow. It looks charming.

Ruth

I'm so glad you're joining us, Ruth. I have about 24% left in the book I'm reading, and then I'll be able to start Sorcery & Cecelia: or The Enchanted Chocolate Pot

My local bookstore didn't have a copy, so I still have to get my hands on one. I'm pleased people are interested in this group again. I thought it had died away.

Ruth

Ruth wrote: "My local bookstore didn't have a copy, so I still have to get my hands on one. I'm pleased people are interested in this group again. I thought it had died away."

I was able to get an ebook through my library.

Here's some information about Sorcery and Cecelia that I found on Patricia Wrede's website: "Caroline [Stevermer] and I started these books as a game, alternately writing letters to each other “in character.” She was Kate and I was Cecy. When we finished the stack of letters that became Sorcery and Cecelia, we sent it to our agent. The book was published by Ace books in a small print run, and not reprinted.

Nearly fifteen years later, demand for used copies of the first book was still great enough that our agents were able to resell the first title along with a sequel."

That's a great story. I don't read e-books, so I'll have to search for a hard copy.

Ruth

I have downloaded a copy to my iPad, so I am ready to start as soon as I finish the last couple of chapters of Elizabeth: The Forgotten Years. Thanks for organizing this read, Lanelle.

I should have a copy by Saturday!

Ruth

I started reading last night... The beginning reminded me of Jane Austin, so when I got to the end of the free sample, I bought the ebook. They just found the Chocolate Pot, the plot thickens! ;)

I just finished reading Cecelia's letter about finding (view spoiler)[ a charm bag under Oliver's bed. (hide spoiler)] Quite a mystery. It seems odd how concerned she is about him.

There's something in Cecelia's letter on May 8th that I can't comprehend. How can a (view spoiler)[ scarf be strong enough to hold a book in its pocket? (hide spoiler)]

My book just arrived. I shall strive to catch up.

Ruth

Ruth wrote: "My book just arrived."

I hope you enjoy the story, Ruth.

Lanelle,

How does one hide spoilers as you do?

Ruth

Ruth wrote: "Lanelle,

How does one hide spoilers as you do?

Ruth"

I'm on my tablet, or I would copy and paste something for you.

I know that the group called The Challenge Factory has an HTML Help & Practice thread that shows how to do all the tricks, like spoilers.

I am really enjoying! I think I'm at 42% (hate it when the kindle doesn't have page numbers), and I'd like to just keep reading clear through the evening to keep all the clues straight in my mind! Alas, I have other responsibilities. ;)

Ruth wrote: "Lanelle,
How does one hide spoilers as you do?
Ruth"

Ruth, if you look at the top right of the comment field, there's a link that says "(some html is okay)". Click that to see the spoiler tag and others you can use in this space.

But basically:

< spoiler > blah, blah < / spoiler >

Remove the spaces, and that will hide the "blah, blah"! Hope this helps!

Happy Day,
rift

Rift and Lanelle,

Thank you both! I haven't read enough to spoil anything for anyone, but I hope to have read enough to need to hide something soon.

Ruth

Testing: (view spoiler)[They all die in the end. (hide spoiler)]

lol Love the spoiler, Ruth!

bahaha! Probably!

Thanks for the laugh!

When my kids were young, they would nag nag nag me to tell them the end of books until I just started repeating, "They DIE. They ALL DIE!" until it became a tradition.

Lanelle, regarding the letter of 8 May: (view spoiler)[It's a shawl, not a scarf, and the book is reported to be slim. Cecy later puts the book into her reticule, so it must be quite small. I've seen shawls and scarves, too — the knitted kind, not the airy, silken ones — with substantial pockets that would easily carry a book. (hide spoiler)]

Also, regarding Cecelia's discovery and her concern for Oliver, it doesn't seem that surprising to me given her (possibly accurate) assessment of his intelligence : )!

I do like the way that everyone is so blasè about the existence of magic. Some of the characters may not care for it, but no one denies its existence.

I do see the influence of Austen, particularly in Cecy's father and her aunts. I'm less sure about Tolkien's influence. Neither Cecy nor Kate has mentioned having hairy feet.

Ruth

Ruth, I love your spoiler!
I agree with your description of the shawl with inside pockets that Cecy describes in her May 8th letter. If you look at shawls with pockets on Google images, you get a good idea of what they look like. Although the modern look seems to be to place the pockets on the outside.

It is a really clever book that pulled me in from the start.
I love the uptight aunts who seem to keep everything running properly, but the girls are so brilliant that they run circles around everyone. Pretty Georgiana has to rely on her looks though, and she is spoiled, too. (view spoiler)[I was surprised that she is stealing to support her gambling habit and that she let Kate and Cecy take all the punishment for the goat caper, which was her idea. (hide spoiler)]

I see the Austen parallel, too, especially in the father and aunt relationships. Dad is a distant figure studying Greek in his library; however, he does seem kind and concerned about the children's welfare in a remote way. Maybe more fathers were like him in that time period, making the big decisions, but leaving the daily workings of the household to the women.

June 23rd letter
(view spoiler)[I was thrilled when Sylvia Schofield swept onto the scene to confront Miranda and support her son. It becomes clear very soon that Kate, with her pure heart, wins Lady Sylvia over. (hide spoiler)]

This is a great book, and I love the way it is written entirely in letters.

Lanelle wrote: post #5

Thanks for the background, Lanelle.

Connie (Ava Catherine) wrote: "June 23rd letter"

(view spoiler)[Moms to the rescue! (hide spoiler)]

I had to chuckle when I read Cecelia's letter on 13th of May, where Dorothea describes (view spoiler)[ Robert Penwood's list of "...excellent qualities that made Mrs. Radcliffe's heroes seem insipid by comparison." (hide spoiler)] A wonderful line!

Connie et alia,

We should let everyone know when we've all finished the book so we can write openly : ). (I finished last night.)

I now want a shawl with hidden pockets. This seems to be an essential wardrobe item. And I want books as interesting and useful as the one Cecy hid in her shawl to tuck away in mine.

I did rather feel for the aunts. They weren't so bad. I did wonder what happened to Cecy's mom. I was surprised that Aunt Elizabeth (view spoiler)[turned out to be a sorcerer herself. I was expecting more of a Petunia Dursley set up. The revelation reminded me of Jehana in Deryni Rising.

As for Georgiana, I think a little more character development might have been strengthened the novel a bit. How did she get started (view spoiler)[ gambling? Why didn't Kate intervene earlier? Why didn't she look into Freddie's implication that Georgy had been gambling (hide spoiler)]?

I would have liked to have seen a bit more of the father too. I'm not that well-versed in Regency social norms, but the implication in Pride and Prejudice is that Mr. Bennett should have been a much more attentive father. We see that hint in S&S and Persuasion as well. In Northanger Abbey we do get a sensible father in Mr Morland. My impression is that Regency fathers were expected to be fairly involved in the lives of their children.

I have a question about Lady Sylvia. (view spoiler)[Kate describes, in her letter of 6 July, on p. 261 in my edition, how Sylvia sort of dangles the family jewels before her, how she talks of settlements and so on. What I can't tell is whether Sylvia is trying to see whether Kate wants to marry Thomas for his money (or at all), or whether she is trying to get through Kate's delightful obtuseness and clue her in to the sincerity of Thomas' feelings. Is this a test, or an attempt at enlightenment? And I don't think it's Kate's pure heart that wins over Thomas' mother but her chutzpah, spunk, wits, and willingness to stand up to Schofield : ). (hide spoiler)]

I appreciated the way the authors managed to make the villains sufficiently menacing to hold our interest without creating characters so evil as to frighten the younger readers. That's a delicate balancing act.

Ruth (hide spoiler)]

I finished in one sitting!

Connie,

I don't blame you.

Connie, Rift, and anyone else out there:

I know we haven't really even started discussing this book, but Lanelle has rightly on the Next Book thread started a consideration of what to read next. If we choose now, we'll have time to find copies. If you have a chance, pop over to that thread and see what Lanelle is proposing and post any ideas you might have for our Cecelia's successor.

Ruth

By the way, why is Kate left out of the title?

Yep, I've finished.

Ruth already wondered what happened to Cecy's mom... but the girls are cousins, both cared for by aunts. So where the heck are Kate's Mother AND Father? Or did I miss something? I need a family tree, because I'm curious about whose sibling is whose, concerning the aunts and Cecy's Father! Is it weird if he's living with his wife's sister?

Maybe no Kate in the title because it wasn't poetic enough. ;)

Rift wrote: "Maybe no Kate in the title because it wasn't poetic enough. ;) ..."

I agree, Rift. Sorcery and Kate just doesn't flow as well :)

Rift,

For the time, it wasn't that odd for a sister to live with her brother, especially to care for his daughters, and even more so because it would have been rather scandalous for a single, unmarried female of some social standing to live without the protection of a male relative. And we wouldn't want to read books about people behaving scandalously, would we? Of course not!

But I too am curious about these absent parents. I've started the second book in the series, and so far the silence about them has been maintained. I have no idea if they'll show up, but it rather like all those absent mothers in Shakespeare, no?

I did often feel as if we had entered the story in medias res. I did a little poking around (but not much) to see if these characters have backstory in some other novel, but didn't find anything easily.

I guess we should write the authors and suggest that they start a new book, Kate and Chiromancy, just to be fair.

Ruth

If anyone is interested, Amazon has all three Cecelia and Kate books for $1.99 right now.

The Cecelia and Kate Novels: Sorcery & Cecelia, The Grand Tour, and The Mislaid Magician

Oh, sure, now that I already bought them…

What new thoughts have you had about our current selection? Have we all finished it? I've lost track.

Ruth

(view spoiler)[I think it's noteworthy that Kate and James seem to have no interest in learning to do magic. In the society the authors have created, magic seems to have become as commonplace as becoming a professor or scientist or landscape architect — all fascinating careers, but none of which is equally intriguing to all. But who among us would have said no to a chance to study at Hogwarts?

This attitude toward magic, and James' and Thomas' roles in the Wellington's campaigns, makes me think these books owe a debt to Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. (hide spoiler)]

Did anyone else think so?

Ruth

Ruth wrote: "I think it's noteworthy..."

Yes! Everyone is so blasé (except for Aunt Elizabeth's known repugnancy)... "oh, it's some kind of charm, do you know what kind?" and we are kind of eased into the fact that charms maybe actually work. And then go from there.

I think it's pretty well done, for those of us who don't usually read fantasy. (I prefer sci fi and non-fiction.) But then I've not read all that much fantasy, to compare it with!

I've not read Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, but I know some of my friends have enjoyed it. I should probably look it up. Thanks for the recommendation.

Rift,

Clarke's book is a commitment; pick it up if you like a good, long read. It's not a chore, though, and it has some of the same matter-of-fact attitude toward magic we see here.

I like sci fi too, though I'm out of touch with the recent works.

Ruth

Ruth, I haven't read Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell so I can't comment on your comparisons. My son has read all three books you've mentioned, and so I sent him your thoughts.

Here's his response: (view spoiler)[ I don't really equate the same societal concerns between the two. In Harry Potter, magic changes the way we use and see the world. In Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, like Sorcery and Cecilia, magic is more of an extra, doing things that are special, but not transforming our mundane lives. However, Jonathan Strange's magic seems more dangerous and wild, something that was lost to time and studied as a theoretic exercise by modern musicians, whereas the Odious Marquis' magic seems more useful in scientific exploration and other unexplained benefits in the war - it's more of a plot device to add intrigue. (hide spoiler)]

Lanelle and Son,

I quite agree with your astute remarks. I would very much like to know more of your thoughts on how, in Rowling, magic changes the way we use and see the world. Harry's world and Cecilia's are taken up with very different concerns. My point was that *I* am still waiting for my letter of acceptance to Hogwarts : ). (I'm still not-quite-eleven in my heart.)

But contrasting the attitudes toward magic in Rowling's creation with that of the ones in Wreade and Stevermer's world does bring up issues of tolerance and empowerment. In some ways, the easy acceptance of the existence of magic and its use allows people like Kate and James to choose NOT to pursue it. And certainly we see none of the persecution that wizards in HP experience. In fact, it's remarkable given the time of Sorcery that there are no limitations imposed by gender, but in a YA book, it's beneficial to have smart, strong female characters. And it isn't OUR Regency England anyway.

And you're entirely right too about the quality of the magic that Strange chooses to pursue. Norrell's approach, as I recall, is more akin to what we get in S&C, but Clarke's book is altogether more complex and nuanced — adult — than the charmer of a tale we just read. I think what makes Strange's magic frightening to Norrell is that it *does* do what you describe magic doing in Harry Potter. It very much changes how we see the world and even the world itself.

Son of Lanelle — join us! You are insightful and well read and have many cogent concepts to communicate.

Ruth

Does anyone want to talk about the class issues in the novel? Servants, gentry, nobility? There's a lot of unexpected gender equality, but the class demarcations seem to be remaining firmly in place.

Ruth

Ruth wrote: "Lanelle and Son,

...Son of Lanelle — join us! You are insightful and well read and have many cogent concepts to communicate. "

I've passed your post to my son, Rick. He hasn't responded to them yet. And I agree, he is all those things!

Rick seems like he would be a great addition to our group. Someone must have raised him well…

Ruth